Shadow: I thought, today, we'd discuss the Divine .. what we believe it is, what it means to us, how we relate to it.
Mari: Just a note. If I disappear, the cat has knocked the phone off the desk.
Shadow: :) I'll keep that in mind, Mari. ;)
Shadow: When I speak of the Divine, I mean a single .. well, entity, for lack of better word, that is everything that exists, with a synergistic effect that makes it more than the sum of its parts
Star: ACTION takes up her seat on the fence
aangellmouse: personally i see the divine in most things such as the colors of the sunrise and sunset the flap of a butterflies wings the touch of a hand or the smile on a persons face
Celeste621: lol Move over Star, I find myself up there often too.
Star: ACTION makes room for Celeste
Celeste621: Thank you.
Star: (and anyone else who desires a fence seat)
Angelfly3: I think I see the divine as all that is, has ever been, and will ever be, as well as all that is not, has never been, and will never be....yet is also more than that, a whole
Lisa: ACTION doesn't like sitting on fences as one tends to get splinters up the...
aangellmouse: then again i think all gods and goddesses are part and parcle of one divine energy and that we see what we need to see of it in the form we can best relate to at that time
LaVeleda: *JOIN* Entered room.
Celeste621: I think of the Divine as a conscious force with limits. I'm not sure what those limits are, but logic would tell me that they may be there.
Celeste621: Hi, LaVeleda.
LaVeleda: ACTION smiles "Hello and good evening."
Lisa: Shadow are you asking for what we define the Divine as discussion or where you planning on teaching?
Shadow: heh .. I'm not qualified to teach.
Shadow: discussion, for anyone with an opinion
Celeste621: Have you been thinking about this more since you've been working with flame keeping, Shadow?
Celeste621: Or is this an old topic for you?
Shadow: mmmm, both, I think. It's something I believed anyway, but I've been working more on fleshing it out since
Shadow: I've a lot of bits and pieces worked out, although it's very hard to make sense sometimes .. one loses a sense of *self* after a point
Shadow: because if everything is part of the Divine, that includes us .. we are each our own, individual selves, but we are also part of the Divine here-and-now
Shadow: not someday, when we're good enough .. right now, as we are.
Star: Myself, I'm on the fence because I'm definitely all about the idea that there are definitely separate deities, and I don't think they're all one--but I feel like there's SOMETHING else there, too, more universal--I just don't know what.
Celeste621: Ah, I see what you mean.
Shadow: heh. I ALSO believe in separate individual Deities. :D
Mari: I'm going to try to explain this as simply as I can ... In the Gwyddoniad, there's what we call "The Boundless". The Boundless is made up of absolutely everything. Everything that is - and everything that isn't, everything that has been, everything that may potentially be. There are levels of existence in the cosmos, two of those being (for our purposes here) godhood and human being.
Captain_Koi_-_Arrr_: *JOIN* Entered room.
Shadow: after all .. all humans are part of the Divine, but I am not you. I think it works similarly for gods ...
Shadow: hey, Koi
Celeste621: Hi, Koi.
Angelfly3: I also believe in separate individuals, who have their own minds, like people, yet who are also part of the Divine
echo_8: Namaste Koi. :)
echo_8: sort of like the collective unconscious?
Mari: For us the gods are all as individual and as unique and separate as we humans are.
Mari: They've just achieved a higher level of "being".
Koi: hey :)
Mari: Is that to me, Echo? Or?
Celeste621: It makes sense to me if there were seperate deities connected by something. That's pretty vague though. :/
Shadow: mmmm .... to me, Echo, it would be as if the collective unconcious was concious and intelligent
Celeste621: Mari, do you have beliefs about what they were before they reached this level?
Shadow: I don't believe that's usually what's meant when one says collective unconcious
echo_8: well, I guess it could be to anyone, Mari, but I was directing it more to Shadow. *giggles*
Mari: Celeste - yes = they were human. Most of them were.
Celeste621: Hm, I've heard of that belief before somewhere. Ok.
Shadow: I'm not sure if gods were once human .. I, personally, doubt it. but I sure as heck don't know! :D
Shadow: for all I know, they COULD be space aliens ... but I really, really doubt it. :D
Celeste621: Yeah, that's always the trick. You don't know for sure, so there are so many possibilities to accept.
aangellmouse: if they were once human then was there a divine force prior to the coming of man or did humans simply create then grow to fullfill the space of the devine?
Shadow: well, and I think admitting our ignorance in the face of the Divine is important. we CAN'T understand something so much vaster than ourselves
Star: Good point
Shadow: we can't understand EACH OTHER or OURSELVES fully, what makes us think we can comprehend the Divine? :)
Angelfly3: I don't know whether I believe the gods were once human....on one hand, it makes sense with my beliefs about reincarnation across species
Mari: The Bboundless, Yvonne
Celeste621: Very true. I feel ok saying "I don't know" about many issues because I can't expect to understand it all.
Angelfly3: but at the same time, I get the feeling that they are not
Shadow: I believe the Gods are a way of the Divine trying to reach us as we tried to reach it.
LaVeleda: *PART* Left room.
Mari: We teach that there was the Boundless, then there was a spark which realized it was Conscious. That spark called herself Kerridwen the Great. KtG created herself out of the Boundless and then went on to create the Manifest realm.
Shadow: an intermediary that took on life of their own
Shadow: Change the names to protect the innocent, and I believe something similar
Celeste621: Is the Boundless sort of like the universe or "what is"?
Shadow: although I believe the Divine IS the physical Universe .. there is no *outside* to me
aangellmouse: that makes sense too
Mari: I wrote waaaaay up there.T
Shadow: but that all things physical can also be spiritual/mental, and vice versa
Mari: The Boundless is everything and nothing
Mari: Scroll waaay back. It's up there somewhere.
Celeste621: Oh, I'm sorry. I missed that.
Celeste621: I'll go check.
Mari: I'd c/p it but unfortunately, you can't do that with this chatroom anymore
Celeste621: No no, sorry about that.
Celeste621: Thanks, makes more sense after I read it. :)
Mari: good :D
Mari: Now, for the fun part of that ...
Mari: We teach that "there is ONE Boundless Being - and YOU are that."
Mari: In other words, *everything* is part of the whole
Shadow: I've never liked the idea of God/the Divine standing outside the Universe, for some reason. I believe the first moment the spark of stuff that existed realized it existed, it caused the Big Bang
Shadow: there wasn't room for both the *stuff* and the *thought* to occupy the same space
Shadow: heh .. one is individual, AND one is part of the greater Whole? :D
Celeste621: I'm going to pull a muscle trying to comprehend that I think, lol. Wow. Only one and it's a part? Hm.
Celeste621: Sounds like a paradox.
Mari: I'll send you another copy of my Sameness article and beat you with it
Shadow: it's not paradox ... it's Mystery. it's not something that can really be comprehended with the logical mind
aangellmouse: like facets on a gem mair?
Shadow: it's as if your blood cells took up intelligence and personal freedom.
Shadow: they'd each be individual .. but you can't think of them as separate from you, no matter what they didi
Shadow: bah.. did
Mari: That's right Von
Celeste621: Hm, ok.
Mari: And Shadow
Mari: nothing is apart or separate from anything else
Mari: Everything is interconnected
Celeste621: That perspective helps a bit.
aangellmouse: that is basically how i see things i see that each god and goddess are just different facets of the same energy
Shadow: that, but yet individual, also?
Celeste621: I feel so silly :") I don't have any beliefs that indepth or complex I think. Maybe I just haven't thought it out enough.
Shadow: I think the other important part, TO ME, is that we are individual for a reason
Shadow: heh. there are times I wish I hadn't delved so much into my own mind, Celeste, it's scary in here! :D
Mari: Yes individual, also. Our ego is what allows us to realize that we are individual
Shadow: the goal isn't to give up our individuality .. OR to forget that we are part of a greater whole
Shadow: we grow from both sides, and are greater for being both
aangellmouse: well even with a gem the facets are each individual the crystal may appear the same but the structural views and flaws within each are different and unique
Angelfly3: and perhaps the Divine is greater for having both aspects....if it were only one, or only individuals, it couldn't be as much as it is now
Shadow: if the Divine were not also made up of many individuals, I don't think it could grow and learn
Shadow: we learn through our individuality .. through exploring and trying and pushing against others, even as they push against us, seeking boundaries
Celeste621: Would there be any advantages to *not* having all of these individual perspectives?
Celeste621: For the Divine as a whole, I mean.
Shadow: our minds stagnate without something to push back against
Shadow: heh .. it would be a lot more peaceful, were we not to exist! :D
Celeste621: Heh, good point. :) Maybe more boring though.
Shadow: there would be a lot less pain, as well .. we do the Divine a lot of harm through what we do to each other
Star: The gem analogy reminds me of a piece of amethyst I have... An eight-sided crystal, all faces being triangular and approximately the same size. The thing is... If you look at it from one direction, it looks like there's only a little dot of purple in the middle. If you look at it from another angle, it looks about half purple. From still another angle, it looks completely purple.
Star: Same stone, but three different appearances... At least three. Probably more.
Shadow: everything we feel, the Divine feels .. good and bad
aangellmouse: yes that is much of how i view the divine
aangellmouse: they are all connected yet vary in views
Celeste621: I wonder if the Divine will someday not be like it is now, if it will change.
Celeste621: :/ I have too many questions in my head tonight, sorry. lol Just thinking outloud.
Celeste621: I like the gem analogy and the amethyst one too, that makes sense.
Shadow: I believe part of the purpose of life is so the Divine CAN grow, actually
DewMak: *JOIN* Entered room.
Celeste621: Hi, DewMak.
DewMak: hi all
Shadow: it can exist alone forever, and stagnate .. but only through individuality is growth possible. :)
Koi: that's one of my favorite ... um ... heresies, I guess :D
Celeste621: Hm, makes sense I suppose for the Divine to grow as well.
Shadow: ACTION does the heretic dance
Shadow: wait, I'm not Catholic. can't be a heretic. DAMN.
Koi: I have a book with Christians and Jews speculating on that somewhere
Koi: my Evil professor says it's heresy, but I think it's rather poetic :D
Angelfly3: I've thought that, too, but I've wondered why the Divine wants to grow in the first place.....is it just part of its being to want to grow, or at some point did it decide?
Celeste621: lol poetic heresy, i like it.
Celeste621: Maybe it can't help but to grow? I dunno.
Celeste621: We can't help growing and changing.
Shadow: well, after you've sat around for X billion years, wouldn't you get bored? :D
aangellmouse: if humans echo the divine and we are continuously growing and evolving doesn't it stand to reason that the divine is as well?
Mari: I've been around for almost 35, and I'm bored to death.
Koi: does the divine stand to reason?
Shadow: but also .. I think that drive we have to explore, to learn .. our creative spark. Perhaps THAT is our truest inheritance from the Divine .. what is mostly in the Divine image.
Mari: I agree Von
DewMak: *PART* Left room.
Shadow: heh .. of course the Divine stands to reason, Koi ... it's own. :D
Celeste621: If we echo it, yes, I'd think so.
Koi: but the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men, as they say :D
Shadow: Mari .. I'll liven things up. come up and visit, I'll get the firecrackers and a chiropractor. ;)
Mari: oh lord
aangellmouse: just gives us something to strive for
Shadow: I believe there IS a reason .. I also suspect that if I was told it by the Divine, my head would explode from trying to comprehend and failing
aangellmouse: i agree with that thought shadow
Shadow: why is the idea that the Divine grows a heresy, Koi?
Koi: because God is complete and perfect
Shadow: ah. of course, silly question.
Koi: and that implies a certain unchangingness. you can't be MORE perfect if you're ALREADY perfect
Shadow: I just don't believe in perfection. :D
echo_8: perfection is a paradox, imo.. I love it. lol
Celeste621: Maybe just continuing on in perfection. :)
Koi: also, the idea of a changeable diety upsets a lot of people, but I think it's biblically supported, so pfft to that :D
Mari: A paradox?
Shadow: I find the idea of an UNCHANGING deity more upsetting, personally, but then, I'm weird.
Mari: Me too
Angelfly3: the problem with that would be defining perfect, I think.........is perfect a still state, or a state of changing? could something change from what was once perfect and still be perfect?
Mari: IMHO, there's no "perfect" anything.
Shadow: I like to think everyone/thing can learn .. that learning and growing is part of what existance is meant to be
aangellmouse: if the divine encompasses all things paradox would be yet one more aspect that it would need to cover
Shadow: why else would we be so darn curious?
Shadow: often, IMO, an apparent paradox is actually a great truth
echo_8: well.. if something is perfect, it needs to longer grow, etc.. it becomes essentially stagnate, and what becomes stagnate, because it doesn't change, breaks down eventually... but then.. in a sense.. everything is "perfect" because things have to change in order to survive/exist, etc. and all that jazz?
Shadow: we are individual, we are part of a greater whole. apparent paradox
aangellmouse: perfection in my book is just a carrot in front of the ass so to speak we are always stretching toward it but will never reach it the journey is more important that the destination
Celeste621: Isn't a paradox usually considered false only by western standards?
Star: ACTION feels her eyes cross
echo_8: I agree, Shadow, I love a good paradox.. the tao te ching rocks. lol
Shadow: there's that, too, Celeste
Celeste621: I thought in other areas of the world a paradox was like you said- something we're unable to comprehend but not necessarily untrue.
Angelfly3: I think maybe we are perfect, and yet at the same time always striving toward perfection........we are failing, but we are meant to be failing, and so our failing is perfection
Shadow: Star .. the idea is NOT to understand it logically. the logical mind is not our only instrument of understanding
Star: Why does perfection have to be a constant, unchanging thing?
Mari: But if we're all made up of the same stuff, that means we're all part of the whole, part of All Things. Yup.
Shadow: I think we are perfect .. ly human. :)
echo_8: the opposite of a true statement is a false statement, but the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth -niehls bohr
Shadow: Bohr? really?
Star: I'm working on it, Shadow... For all my water affinity, I'm still an Air sign, though. ;)
Shadow: I thought that was ... damn. I really thought that was someone else
Koi: yeah, that quote was in my Chandlers a couple weeks ago!
Celeste621: Good quote, Echo.
aangellmouse: i like that echo it sounds right to me
Celeste621: *copies and pastes that in a safe place*
echo_8: I have a thing for quotes. :x
Celeste621: oh foo, I'll have to wait for the transcripts.
Celeste621: lol I enjoy hunting up good quotes too.
Shadow: heh. I understand, Star, in many ways I'm a hard-nosed realist, too. Then I realized .. it doesn't matter.
Shadow: something can be true without me needing to *understand* it
Shadow: and if it IS true, my lack of comprehension doesn't mean a damn thing
Shadow: I cannot unmake reality by my lack of comprehension. (which is good, or a whole lotta things wouldn't exist!)
echo_8: yeah.. physics..oye..
Star: I'm still driven to make things make logical sense, though. Up to a point, that is--and once I hit that point I get it instinctively and can't explain it for the world, usually. :)
Shadow: pesky physics. keeps existing no matter what we try to do to get around them
GrabLove: *JOIN* Entered room.
Celeste621: Hi, GrabLove.
GrabLove: hi everyone
GrabLove: my current gripe is
Shadow: I understand, Star .. our minds are wired for logic, and we try to make that goal no matter what
GrabLove: has the Bible been altered down through the ages?
Shadow: GrabLove, the topic is the Divine and our understandings of it
Shadow: I think that the Divine doesn't listen to our logic, though
GrabLove: is understanding of the Divine through reading of the Bible?
Shadow: much as we try to force it back there. :)
aangellmouse: it has been massively altered through the ages perhaps this is due to a constantly evolving view of how mankind views the divine?
Koi: grab, if you private message me I'm happy to discuss that with you
Shadow: um .. you are aware this is a PAGAN chat room, aren't you?
Star: Oh, probably not. That's what makes it hard to understand Divinity. :)
Celeste621: I don't use the bible to understand the Divine, not my holy book.
GrabLove: to a Catholic, a Jew is a pagan and vice versa
Shadow: which also raises the question of, is it the Divine changing, us changing, or both?
Star: ACTION sighs
Koi: um, I can say that to a Catholic a Jew is not a pagan
Star: I'll go with Mari's answer
GrabLove: ok i shut up
Koi: and Grab please get on topic
GrabLove: going for a coffee
aangellmouse: with mankind changing the views on the divine to suit our personal needs would that also change the texts that various groups use along with their worship of the divine?
echo_8: or for political purposes, but so goes
Mari: Yup. That's why my group has very strict rules about changing our texts
aangellmouse: and does anyone think that we change the divine with our personal perseptions of it?
Mari: Wait. I think I read your post completely backward
Star: Change the TEXTS or change how they're READ?
aangellmouse: both actually
Shadow: I think we change the Divine, and it changes us, both
Shadow: everything we are, everything we do, is part of the Divine .. our hearts inch things more towards love or hate, more towards good or evil
Mari: Kinda like Chaos Theory, Shadow?
Angelfly3: I don't know that our actual perceptions of the Divine change it, so much as what we do with those perceptions
Celeste621: I'm not sure if I believe that we have a direct impact on the Divine in that respect. Hm...something to consider.
Shadow: I eat chaos theory for breakfast! :D
Mari: The whole if a butterfly flaps it's wings in China, it rains in New York?
Shadow: I mean .. sure
Shadow: not quite to that extreme
aangellmouse: the bible is a good example simply because of how long it has been around it has evolved over the years to suit the needs of the people that use it. does that then destroy it's use as a text on that perseption of the divine? and are we doing so with other texts as well?
Shadow: but if what we are is part of the greater whole, than what we do can CHANGE that greater whole
Shadow: perhaps not to a great extent, but then, there's an awful lot of us to push, too. :D
Koi: except, aangellmouse, the bible really hasn't evolved much over the last 1678 years
aangellmouse: do the changes in the religious texts used by any given people reflect the deep feelings and perceptions and if so does that alter the divine or the aspect of it that we see?
Celeste621: I was thinking about that, to what extent? Maybe not in huge ways, but I could see in subtle ways.
Star: OK, um, I hate to do this... But the topic is really not about religious texts changing. Can we get back to the "nature of the divine" topic please?...
Shadow: dude, you shouldn't have that number at your fingertips.
Koi: canon definitive in 325 ... current year is 2003 ... it's just subtraction :D
Koi: *pokes topic*
Shadow: I don't think anything happens IN ISOLATION, no. Everything has an effect .. the question is, what and where
Star: So... we were on the topic of perfection. *Is* the Divine perfect, then? And what does that mean?
Shadow: if I do something that affects someone else, I've affected the Divine
Mari: But aren't religious books a REFLECTION of how people SEE the divine?
Star: (And does it matter? )
Shadow: I still don't believe in perfection
Mari: That's what Yvonne is asking
aangellmouse: i got bumped from msn
Koi: in what sense, Mari?
Mari: And I don't believe in perfection either
Koi: they're both a reflection of the writers (and editors) and readers
Shadow: I think it's silly to think we exist in isolation .. nothing exists in isolation
Koi: unless they're really unidimensional :D
Mari: In the sense that humans wrote the texts because of how WE see the divine
Mari: Right, von?
aangellmouse: exactly mairwen
Mari: excellent :D
Angelfly3: I don't know what perfection is to say whether the Divine is or is not
GrabLove: i agree with Angelfly3
aangellmouse: i simply used the bible as an example because most existing pagan texts have been around for a much shorter time period and the books to the best of my knowledge discribe how any given group percieves the nature of the divine
HOYDEN2: *JOIN* Entered room.
Shadow: I think we may perceive the Divine as perfect, but it's from our lack of perspective
Shadow: HOYDEN! *pounce*
Hoyden: hey :)
Koi: let the wild rumpus begin :D
Hoyden: howdy peoples :)
Celeste621: Hey, Hoyden.
GrabLove: hi Hoyden
Shadow: after all, from our perspective, a moon is really darn big .. but a planet is bigger, and the sun bigger yet .. and there are bigger suns than ours ....
Shadow: perspective covers a lot
Shadow: the Divine is EVERYTHING that exists .. that's awfully big. :D
GrabLove: that is incrimprehensible
Shadow: what? that the Divine is really big?
Mari: *PART* Left room.
Shadow: ACTION is confused
GrabLove: how can you comprehend all that is?
Star: The concept of infinity is incomprehensible... We can't properly comprehend it. :)
Shadow: er .. isn't that what I said?
Mari_-_Grudge_Queen: *JOIN* Entered room.
Shadow: that working yet, Mari?
GrabLove: so to me the concept of reality is what my five senses tell me
GrabLove: and that can be changed
Shadow: er .. if you're only going by your five senses, doesn't that leave out a lot?
Mari_-_Grudge_Queen: I think I'm here.
Shadow: one can't believe what one reads, because you didn't experience it .. or one's heart .......
GrabLove: i am a realist today
Star: It wasn't quite what I heard, Shadow... What I heard was that we had an imperfect perspective on Divinity, which is not quite the same thing as not being able to comprehend it at *all* even if we had the right perspective.
Shadow: ah. I misspoke, then, sorry
Shadow: even the topic is incomprehensible?
GrabLove: no, we are talking about it
Star: 'S ok, that's what this whole "further discussion" thing is about, isn't it? Clarifying what we've said and what we think we've heard? :)
Shadow: but we cannot understand, truly, what we are *part of* .. perhaps the Divine could be understood .. from the outside. but there IS no outside
Shadow: it's like observer bias. :D
Hoyden: what level of divinity are you talking about?
Shadow: well, I'm talking about THE Divine .. all that is. :D
Mari: The Boundless :D
Shadow: I think you've heard me on this topic before?
Hoyden: I think so
Hoyden: I tend to split it up into first Spirit and then the various deities
Shadow: but all divisions are false. even though they're true. ;)
Mari: Thats' kinda the Gwyddon viewpoint, as well ...
Hoyden: ah, well, I don't know about that...depends on what you mean
Mari: Anybody else hungry? I'm starving.
Mari: ACTION brings out food and drink carts
GrabLove: it seems stupid to constantly be theorising all day about such things
aangellmouse: lol deep thinking must be burning up all your energy
GrabLove: when no real proof will surface
Shadow: ah, well, thank you for telling me what I work on all day is stupid
Shadow: good to know
Mari: Why? Theorizing is how we learn!
Celeste621: It's how some people strive to define certain aspects of their faith.
Shadow: here I thought it might be useful
aangellmouse: i think it helps us to grow as a person
Celeste621: What's so stupid about that?
Star: GrabLove, with all due respect, that's what we're here to do tonight... So if you think it's pointless... Why are you here?
GrabLove: my pleasure
Shadow: without thought, without curiosity, without pushing the boundaries of our understanding outwards AND in, what are we?
Hoyden: :) sorry, had to
Mari: absolutely nothing
Shadow: are we? are we really people if we don't think, though?
Celeste621: Anti-intellectual? Bad thoughts, baaaaaad thoughts!
GrabLove: Shadow you are desperately trying to shove your idea of reality down my throat and I won't be bullied
Mari: No, she's not, imho.
Hoyden: well, we start as people...whether we become as fully-developed people as possible is up to us
Shadow: er .. this is a discussion chat. you don't have to agree, but you DO have to be on-topic
Shadow: if you don't like the topic, you don't have to stay
Shadow: but I'm not changing the topic because you find it prostletyzing
QueenIsis69: *JOIN* Entered room.
GrabLove: Shadow started it with appeared to be a sarcastic remark
aangellmouse: grab love we are each free to state our beliefs upon the nature of the divine and we are discusing those
Star: All right, guys. Cool off, please.
Star: GrabLove, they're right--you don't like the topic, you don't have to be here.
Mari: <--- Mairwen here, Isis :D Good to see you again
GrabLove: Shadow is free to be sarcastic and I am not?
Angelfly3: I wonder....would the Divine still develop if we didn't think, or push the boundaries of understanding, if we just experienced and left it at that?
Mari: I thin the divine would be sorely disappointed if we didn't.
Angelfly3: would we still grow?
Mari: but that's just mho
Angelfly3: I think perhaps we would, but not nearly as much
Star: Shadow is on topic. You are not.
Shadow: mmm .. would intelligent creatures exist, if experiencing was enough?
Mari: I don't think we grow without thought or pushing, though.
Shadow: or would there just be dinos and whatnot still?
Mari: I mean, my cat is here sleeping on the desk, kinda experiencing the conversation, but is she profiting from it?? ;-)
Shadow: I mean .. why else would intelligent creatures exist, but to use that intelligence?
GrabLove: how can anyone say that dinos are only 6000 years old
Angelfly3: not from the conversation, probably, but possibly from sleeping
GrabLove: this creation theory is garbage
QueenIsis69: merry meet all, how is everyone doing
aangellmouse: isis i am happy to see you made it
Celeste621: Hi, queenisis. :)
Mari: I thought about that Angelfly, as soon as I pressed send LOL
QueenIsis69: yeah i made it lol
GrabLove: now as I didn't experience the Ice Age i can have a certain amount of faith in scientific evidence
Mari: What's garbage?
QueenIsis69: *PART* Left room.
Shadow: didn't make it long. :(
Celeste621: Aw, maybe she'll be back.
Shadow: of course, one reverse-engineers from our existance backwards.
Lisa: back finally
Hoyden: hey sweeties, I'm going to head out, I don't think my worldview is working as an asset to this convo :) I'll talk to you later
Celeste621: wb Lisa
Shadow: one needs to come up with a theory of existence that includes us
Hoyden: *PART* Left room.
Shadow: okay, Hoyden!
Shadow: hey, Lisa
aangellmouse: i sent a message to star after the stay on topic coment that i was asking something on topic and that she shot down my questions simply because i sued the word bible and that that was rood
Lisa: Sorry I got into venting about my job...
aangellmouse: damn hit wrong button sorry
Shadow: can't have a theory of existance that doesn't include us, because then we don't exist
Shadow: and .. *pokes self* well, I think we do
Angelfly3: some have theorized that we don't exist....though I find that hard to wrap my brain around
GrabLove: well we here are locked into passing through time
GrabLove: that illusion is my reality now
Shadow: well, I think it's kinda silly to think we don't .. after all, everything implies we do
Mari: We don't exist? Now that's interesting. LOL
GrabLove: yes you do Angel
Shadow: if we don't, we still have to live as though we do, because .. well, how else can we live?
Koi_afk: non cogito ergo non sum
Star: And as I replied, aangelmouse, I don't feel I shot down your questions at all. The discussion of the evolution of the Bible, or lack thereof, was vastly offtopic and I asked for a general return to topic. Problems with my request should be taken up with the Chat Coordinator or Hosts.
Shadow: you don't think, therefore you aren't?
Koi_afk: yep :D
GrabLove: i sometimes wonder who is thinking inside my brain
Koi_afk: and I am more than happy to discuss anything Biblical or Christian-related with anyone who wants to take it to PM
C_Chandler_2: *JOIN* Entered room.
C_Chandler_2: how's it going guys.
Celeste621: Hi there, Chandler.
C_Chandler_2: hey celeste
Shadow: er .. can we get back on topic?
Celeste621: lead the way, i'm in over my head at this point. ^^
Lisa: I'm not sure I can 'define' the Divine
Shadow: well, no .. by definition, the Divine is undefinable. :D
Koi_afk: me too celeste :D
Celeste621: Oh good, I don't feel so foolish. You're smart, I feel better. :)
C_Chandler_2: heh... sorry to get you guys off topic again, but anyone know where I can find a good Somafera Forum.
Star: OK, so what about this whole all-gods-are-one thing. Any merit at all? A simplification? Possible Impossible?
echo_8: *PART* Left room.
Mari: I think it's an oversimplification
Shadow: mmmm .. in my eyes, it's an oversimplification
Mari: simply because I've had WAY too much interaction with too many individual gods
Shadow: sure, it's POSSIBLE .. but it's also possible this is all a headgame, and I'm really an escaped Sim pretending to be human
Celeste621: I think there's a connection between all of them that leads back to a much larger whole. So oversimplification, yes.
Angelfly3: well, I think it's possible, but in my mind it is an oversimplification
Mari: to just see them as simple "aspects" of one whole
Lisa: Well the hard polythesist in me says no but... my training says that cultures all have very similiar types of manifestations so...
Shadow: I think we all seek similar things in life, and therefore, the Divine keeps using similar mechanisms (Gods) to get through to us
Shadow: after all, if it works ..... ;)
Lisa: Personally I think we are the Universe's way of experiencing itself
Mari: parts of a whole, yes
Mari: but all part of teh same "person"/being, etc ... nah.
C_Chandler_2: My idea, everything is based on time and schedules... I think we as humans feel the need to come up with this idea of religion, and gods and goddess, one) so we will fill like there is an end to this somewhere along the way, 2) we just need something to believe in period.
Shadow: no more than all women are one person
Mari: Exactly. It's like giving my mom or one of my brothers the $50 you owe me.
Mari: That doesn't work.
Shadow: OTOH, I do think there are considerable parallels between various gods
Star: So if they're not all one, is there a great overarching Entity of some sort at all, or is it just the various deities?
Mari: Parallels, yes, but that doesn't mean they're the same being.
Mari: Even twins aren't the same person.
Shadow: I believe the Divine is concious, and is therefore an overarching Entity. But all the other bits and pieces (including us!) are part of that Entity
Celeste621: I read that as evil twins first, oops.
C_Chandler_2: *PART* Left room.
Mari: That would be what we call The Boundless, Star ... but that covers absolutely everything. and nothing.
Shadow: I did, too.
Lisa: Perhaps it's some univseral pool of divinity from which human desire forms specific god-forms
Mari: evil twins LMAO
GrabLove: but twins have remarkable co-incidences with their choice of partner, pets, injuries etc
Mari: yeah, but they're still individuals
Celeste621: Some twins, not all studies have shown that.
Angelfly3: I think some gods may be the same gods, just visiting different cultures, but there is not really a way to know which ones are the same and which are just similar
Star: But they're still not the same person.
Celeste621: The ones that have are remarkable though.
Shadow: I'm not sure if it's the same gods remarkably similar, or if it's different gods that are the sign of the Divine using something that worked before
Mari: Okay, Shadow. That cramped my brain.
Shadow: because we humans affect how gods are perceived, IMO .. something we refuse to perceive can't work with us
Shadow: if Gods are the Divine trying to contact us, and one God worked before, why not use the same idea again?
Mari: Okay. Now I'm together. :D
GrabLove: how many here believe there are penalties for leading a bad moral life?
Mari: But that wouldn't mean it was the same exact god, though, right?
Mari: Just the same thought in a different place? Different being?
Kentei: *JOIN* Entered room.
Shadow: right. but they'd be very similar to start with, then drift differently
Celeste621: Hi, Kentei.
Mari: My faith is amoral, so I have no opinion, GrabLove.
Shadow: same starting place, different results, I would say, Mari
Mari: Makes sense ... I think.
GrabLove: what does amoral mean?
Mari: not having a viewpoint
Mari: sitting on the fence
Angelfly3: same starting place....like one deity visits a different culture and as it becomes perceived differently, breaks off into another deity?
GrabLove: I think you have morals Mari
Shadow: something like. Although I'm not sure if they start off the same Deity, or just the same idea of Deity
Kentei: amoral is lacking morals, is similar to being pragmatic
Mari: Values, probably ...
Kentei: forgive my interruption
Angelfly3: ok, I think I understand
Mari: er, no
Mari: amoral isn't the same as being immoral - two different things
Lisa: My daughter just asked me if her Book of Myths 'were real'
GrabLove: so Mari would you feel any remorse if you killed someone?
Mari: it depends on who that person was LOL
Kentei: Did not say that amoral and immoral were synonyms... immoral is when you act opposite to moral
GrabLove: be serious
Mari: ACTION hides behind shadow
Kentei: then again morals are really a construct of society
Mari: I am being serious.
Kentei: ethics on the other hand are personal
GrabLove: how many people have you killed Mari?
Mari: noen that I know of
GrabLove: why not?
Star: GrabLove, I hope that wasn't a serious accusation.
Mari: But what does this have to do with the topic, actually?
Shadow: should I give up on the topic, or do people want to continue here?
Star: If it was I'm going to have to issue you an official warning.
GrabLove: you don't think its morally wrong to do so
Mari: I'd like to continue, please.
Angelfly3: I'd like to continue
Star: But in any case, it's way off topic, and I'll thank you to stop dragging us off the topic.
Kentei: amoral = Not admitting of moral distinctions or judgments; neither moral nor immoral.
Mari: I thought that's what I said Kentei
Shadow: Do people have any questions relating to the discussion? or comments?
GrabLove: obeys the dictatorship whilst here
Mari: LIke twice.
Star: If this were not a topiced chat it wouldn't be such a big deal, but there is a specific topic for this chat, so we'd like people to stay on it.
Kentei: Mari, forgive.... I'm on Vicodin for severe muscle spasms
Kentei: Yes ma'am. *bows to Star*
aangellmouse: i have a problem with the chat. I had legitamate questions on how the divine is percieved by humans and how religious texts reflect those considerations and views. yet when i asked that star said to get back on topic which i feel i was. I feel that my questions have been particularly ignored and were on topic all i see it doing at the moment is going round robin on one aspect of the chat
GrabLove: the only amoral person by your definition is God
Kentei: What are we considering about the Divine?
Koi_afk: well, angel, in what way to you feel like that relates to the question of the divine?
Shadow: What it is, how we relate, that sort of thing. :)
Kentei: Ah, this pivots on Belief, first and foremost... in my opinion
Star: I have to go now, it's about time for Hubby to get home. A couple of comments first....
Koi_afk: however, Star is a moderator and if you have a problem with her decisions, you must take them up off-board, via e-mail, with the chat coordinator or with the board owners
GrabLove: what is a religious text? Something accepted by more than one person
aangellmouse: well we are discussing how we percieve the divine
Star: First, aanglemouse, if I appeared to be aiming my request for topic at you, I apologize--it was intended to be a GENERAL request, not aimed at anyone in particular.
aangellmouse: the texts we as humans write are supposedly relating to that
Shadow: Everything we do relates, though, doesn't it?
Kentei: So the presupmtion is that the Divine exists as is, and instead is not a construct of humans?
Shadow: unless, of course, one believes the texts truly are Divinely inspired, in which case, it's just our interpretation that changes
Shadow: yes, Kentei. :)
Star: Second, everyone, I should apologize in general. It seems I've been a bit crabby and topic-nazi-ish tonight. I guess it was a longer day than I realized, and I'd like to apologize if that has spilled over into my moderation. I don't think it has *that* much, but I know it has some.
Star: ...And now I'm outta here. See y'all later. I promise to get some sleep. ;)
Celeste621: Sleep well ,Star
Shadow: night, Star!
Star: *PART* Left room.
Kentei: Ah. That clarifies things.
Shadow: sorry. :)
aangellmouse: what i have been asking is do the changes in the various texts over time reflect our changing needs in the divine or our improved or hopefully improved understanding and does that affect the divine itself?
Mari: Kentei, in the viewpoint of my faith, deities are not human constructs.
Celeste621: I'm going to head out too, I want to get a short ritual done tonight before it gets too late. Thanks for the thoughts everyone, I'll have to read this discussion again later.
Kentei: Mari, same for mine.
Celeste621: *PART* Left room.
Lisa: I would say.. they likely do angelmouse
Koi_afk: i'm still not sure I understand, angel? could you give me a concrete example?
Koi_afk: i'm slow with theoreticals
Shadow: I think one would have to believe IN sacred texts for that to really make sense to me, Angel
Lisa: evotion of thought perhaps
Kentei: However, there are schools of thought which indicate that deities are in fact constructs of human mid
GrabLove: the Bible was written in times when women were very much second class citizens
GrabLove: man's bigotry is reflected in that Bible
aangellmouse: well each group has it's own texts so picking one really wouldn't make a difference but each one we tend to change little things here and there and interprate them in different manners
Shadow: we do that with everything, sacred or not, though, don't we?
Kentei: GrabLove, you are referring to the Old Testament?
Shadow: I mean, I read the same novel you do .. you get a love story, I get an action-adventure
Koi_afk: oh, I see angel, ok
GrabLove: The Christian and Muslim texts both try to bring women down
GrabLove: why aren't there female leaders of the Church???
aangellmouse: do those changes and interpratations reflect how we see things only or do they affect the divine i am not sure that clarifies it any further
mariazstuff: *JOIN* Entered room.
Koi_afk: oddly, I know a lot of female Christian leaders
Kentei: Religion is a well, you can choose to drink or not. Belief is water, a necessity of life.
GrabLove: does the Divine want men only leaders?
Angelfly3: well, if we are part of the Divine, as I believe, then our changes in perspective and what we do with them will change the experiences of the Divine
Shadow: I'm not sure our changing of interpretation changes what the Divine is .. perhaps changes in the Divine change our interpretation, though
Koi_afk: and there are several female leaders in the bible as well, both testaments
Shadow: hello, Maria
Angelfly3: but it will not necessarily change the essence of the Divine
mariazstuff: Hello all
aangellmouse: so the writings of humans should reflect that growing perspective of the divine?
Kentei: the Judeo-christian texts are founded from their society
Shadow: I mean, I can interpret something really WRONG .. that doesn't make the Divine what I think/want it to be
Shadow: which is good, given how some things get interpreted!
Angelfly3: I don't think of it in terms of should, but in terms of would......writing of humans are always going to reflect what they understand.....you cannot write what you cannot understand and expect it to contain any sense
Lisa: Well I'm going to head off I have to put my daughter to bed. (She's yelling at Pluto for kidnapping Persphone ;)
Koi: well, I think first you have to define whether or not you're talking about a divinely inspired text or what we can call "religious commentary"
Shadow: angel, I don't think it's a case of writing SHOULD change the essence, but that it must
Lisa: *PART* Left room.
Kentei: Examining any text, must be remembered the filter of the writer
Koi: sorry, that was bad grammar, lol
aangellmouse: do you think that if enough people believed a particular view that the divine would create an aspect to mirror that view?
Shadow: when we believe differently, we understand differently and will write differently
aangellmouse: that makes sense
Shadow: I think it might, Angel, if it suited the Divine to reach those people
Kentei: aangelmouse.... I believe that to be true
Koi: because if we returned to the bible example - most christians and jews would say they believe the bible to be divinely inspired and man's understanding of it to be deficient
Koi: so the Bible would hold eternal truths, despite any author bias, and the more proper mirror for looking at changing ideas of the divine would be to look at what people found when they read it
aangellmouse: the reason i am wondering is that many ecclectic pagans pull a bit from many different texts to reflect their particular views my thought is that perhaps the divine would create facets to interface with those persons
Shadow: I do think there are things which don't change .. but I'm not sure what, exactly, those things are
GrabLove: which prophecies came true in the Bible?
Kentei: Koi, it is commonly accepted as being divinely inspired..... however, some of the stories in it are borrowed from elsewhere, and adapted to suit the needs of the writers as valuable lessons for life
aangellmouse: that makes sense
Shadow: well, if the person feels they've been contacted directly by a god, I think it's safe to say the Divine found a way, right? :D
Kentei: much of religion is preparing a way of life
Koi: kentei, I'm not talking about the writers, though
Koi: and I have two degrees in theology, I'm pretty well set on the source theories of the old testament :D
Kentei: very well
Koi: next week we can play ancient myth parallels in chat, lol
Koi: shadow, that'd be a GREAT chat
aangellmouse: well the writings in several pantheons are borrowed from others and altered to suit the needs of that area the greek and romans seemed to have borrowed and altered back and forth
Shadow: heh. good idea, I'll set it up. :D
Kentei: Koi... all have same source..... eventually
Shadow: mmm .. one needs to see, though, just what is being borrowed, and what is being left untouched
Shadow: but I agree, another week
aangellmouse: the only way i can see for both views to be essentially correct is if the divine encompasses all views
Mari: Thatt's true sahdow
Shadow: I don't believe the Divine includes ALL views, actually. I think some things are simply wrong.
GrabLove: that statement makes no sense
Shadow: and, when we come right down to it .. reality IS the way it is. sure, we can't know what that is empirically .. but that doesn't change that reality IS.
GrabLove: if God is all that is, then all views are known
aangellmouse: i tend to think there is aplace for even the most appauling simply because without the darker side of things how are we to know when we are seeking the lighter side
GrabLove: unless God doesn't know or chooses not to know something
Koi: but not all views are correct
Kentei: right and wrong are subjective terms
Mari: Simply wrong?
Shadow: I don't agree. I think that those things exist, but should be striven against .. perhaps our view of what is right and wrong will change with the change of our actions
Mari: But if we're all part of the Whole ... then there's really no "right" or "wrong" -- or "good" or "bad"
Kentei: they imply values on things. Values that are inculcated and learned
GrabLove: Kentei, that is the best statement all day
Shadow: there may always be a "right and wrong" debate, but that doesn't mean that all things need to be subject TO that debate
aangellmouse: i think you have expressed that better than i did shadow
Koi: Mari, I'm not sure that necessarily follows
GrabLove: example, it was right to bomb Dresden and kill civilians
GrabLove: from US perspective
GrabLove: from German perspective, ummmmmmm
Mari: It does in my faith.
Shadow: I think that even though we are part of the Divine, we also must make moral choices
Mari: that's why we're amoral.
Kentei: Shadow.... moral choices are also subjective
Mari: If we're part of teh greater whole, then we can't judge anything.
mariazstuff: sometimes there is no right or wrong choice.
GrabLove: and the winner is always right, right?
Mari: because nothing is more or less anything else
Shadow: heh. I'm not. :) If the Divine grows through what I do, I have a responsibility to not do anything I would not want reflected into the Divine
Kentei: Humans have free wills and brains
Koi: yes, but I'm not sure that the logic necessarily HAS to follow
Shadow: it's very Kantian. :D
GrabLove: Mari if your child had its throat slit
GrabLove: you wouldn't feel anger
Mari: Of course
GrabLove: anger relates to morals
Kentei: Shadow, that statement about how the Divine grows through are acts, would indicate that there's a give/take relationship
Angelfly3: you can feel anger against something without thinking it is ultimately wrong in the Divine.......it is harmful to the child, and to the family, but not necessarily overall, in the Divine
GrabLove: how can you say you are amoral?
Mari: er, no?
Shadow: I believe there is such a relationship, personally .. nothing exists in isolation.
Shadow: except the Divine, but then, it's inhabited by all of us! :D
mariazstuff: no man is an island
Angelfly3: I thik their may be a relation, but it's so complicated I cannot figure it out.......because what harms one person may help another, or even that person later on
GrabLove: Angelfly3 i agree, God has his own plans, we just get angry we are not let in on them
Kentei: Destiny vs. Free Will.... oh boy
Angelfly3: and there may not be a relation even though it doesn't happen in isolation.....the Divine may simply want to experience, so that it harms one, it could just be for the Divine
Shadow: we have to make the best guess we can'
Shadow: I don't believe that.
Shadow: why would the Divine WANT to feel pain?
GrabLove: to differentiate what pleasure is
Angelfly3: because in my view, the Divine is ALL that is and is not, including pain
Shadow: we have to deal with what we do .. saying "The Divine wanted that" removes responsibility from our shoulders
Angelfly3: it doesn't necessarily want to feel pain, but it is pain
Shadow: heh .. isn't their enough pain without adding to it deliberately?
mariazstuff: we make our own destinies
Koi: *PART* Left room.
mariazstuff: and can change them.
Angelfly3: yes, we have to deal with what we do.......I think the Divine may not necessarily care one way or the other, but the individuals care
GrabLove: i am destined off to the shower, a pleasure to discuss with you
GrabLove: adding you to my favourites
Angelfly3: and *I* would rather not feel pain, whether or not the Divine does, so I will not inflict pain on others, believing that they probably do not want to feel pain, either
GrabLove: *PART* Left room.
mariazstuff: I don't think the gods have anything to do with that. We were put here to learn
Shadow: heh. I agree, Angel
Angelfly3: unless I must, or should for some other reason
Captain_Koi_-_Arrr_: *JOIN* Entered room.
Shadow: ACTION offers Koi duct tape
Shadow: I think we also need to realize that whether or not the Divine *appears to want something* WE hold the burden for our actions
Angelfly3: yes, I agree
Shadow: whether it is good or bad .. what we do reflects outwards, to the Universe .. and inwards, to ourselves
Angelfly3: to a point, I think
aangellmouse: there are several views i need to think about that have been expressed tonight some that i think border and blend with those i had at the start of this and some that may or may not fit me but all of which are good because they will promote personal growth
Shadow: holy cow, it's ten!
Shadow: where did the time go!
Mari: done the tubes
aangellmouse: yup my brain is chewing on concepts at the moment
Mari: down even
aangellmouse: it flew because things were interesting
Shadow: :D I'm glad people had fun
Shadow: but I'm starting to fall asleep, to be honest
mariazstuff: *PART* Left room.
Shadow: so if no one objects, I'd like to wrap this up now, with the offer to continue the discussion on the board, to those who are interested
aangellmouse: i did mainly feel bad because of two spots i didn't hit the blasted whisper button and ment too
Shadow: been there, done that .. have a T-shirt, join the club
aangellmouse: thank you everyone for givine me some new things to ponder
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