The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
March 26, 2017, 04:03:26 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 26, 2017, 04:03:26 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru, Tana

CauldronMUX Chat Staff
Chief MUX Wizard:
Darkhawk

Reserve Staff:
Aisling, Bob, Catja, Fausta, Sperran, Steve

Cauldron Council:
Everfool, Jubes, Kelly, Koi, Melamphoros, Ocelot, Phouka, Sashapablo, Star

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall

Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Adapting festivals to modern conditions  (Read 7638 times)
sefiru
Master Member
****
Last Login:April 11, 2016, 06:41:55 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Kemetic
Posts: 661

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Topic Start: March 29, 2007, 12:56:54 am »

It's been mentioned before that many AE festivals were closely tied to the environment of Egypt, with regards to such things as planting, harvest and the Nile flood. In most places in the world, there is a disjunction between the meaning of the festival and its timing. So how should we handle this?

I can think of three options:
1. Continue to observe the festival as closely as possible to the historical version.
2. Keep the meaning of the festival, and move the date to fit local conditions. This could get complicated.
3. Keep the date, and make the meaning symbolic; so a planting festival would be about starting new projects, or working to improve one's life, or some such. I'm thinking here about Lent and how in the West it's expanded to people giving up various things/practices, not just animal foods.
Logged

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

SatAset
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 06, 2011, 10:27:55 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Orthodox, Heathen, Orisa devotee
Posts: 886


Avatar and Sig Image by Lykaios

Blog entries (1)



Ignore
« Reply #1: March 29, 2007, 10:52:13 pm »

It's been mentioned before that many AE festivals were closely tied to the environment of Egypt, with regards to such things as planting, harvest and the Nile flood. In most places in the world, there is a disjunction between the meaning of the festival and its timing. So how should we handle this?

I can think of three options:
1. Continue to observe the festival as closely as possible to the historical version.
2. Keep the meaning of the festival, and move the date to fit local conditions. This could get complicated.
3. Keep the date, and make the meaning symbolic; so a planting festival would be about starting new projects, or working to improve one's life, or some such. I'm thinking here about Lent and how in the West it's expanded to people giving up various things/practices, not just animal foods.

1.  I think that makes us more "recon" than "reformed".  Hehe. 
2.  I think that's too complicated.  Some people have four seasons with snow and all, others have more close to three, and the tropics is hot most of the time. 
3.  I think that one is the most feasible, but the calendar changes every year since the start date is the rise of the star Sirius (Sopdet in AE) so it would depend when the New Year is locally to start the festivals.  Unless we wanted a fixed calendar just starting somewhere in August.  I also think that many of the holidays celebrated will depend heavily on which deities one is devoted to.  I would say the major ones would be the 5 Days Upon the Year, the New Year, the Wag festival (which is devoted to the Akhu or the ancestors) and the Mysteries of Wesir (which remembers the death and resurrection of Wesir, mourning of Aset and Nebet Het--I have a four day celebration of this somewhere, and it is as Darkhawk is fond of saying a planting festival). 

I know there are two more festivals but it may depend on if you normally worship them or not.  Amun, Mut and Khonsu have a big one and so do Heru and Hethert with the Beautiful Reunion.

Also there are the new and full moons to consider as well.  There were festivals for those in AE too.  And there were festivals for the Nisut or symbolically for the Nisut (so what do we do with those?  Throw them out because we don't have a Nisut?  I favor that idea). 

Some festivals also tell us what to do for them:  Lighting the Lamps for Nit or Aset Webenut (Luminous) are both a festival of lights for those goddesses.  You light candles for them (for Aset Webenut some people put tealights in something so they can float on water to carry the prayers to Aset).  I've done this myself, by myself and I wish I had taken a picture. 

Logged

I am the Goddess of Who I can Become. I mix the magic of the sorceress with the blade of a warrior. I walk the liminal pathways to see the face of the Goddess, both terrible and kind. As She stares back at me, I tremble in awe and ecstasy.  --Me
sefiru
Master Member
****
Last Login:April 11, 2016, 06:41:55 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Kemetic
Posts: 661

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #2: March 30, 2007, 05:12:06 am »

3.  I think that one is the most feasible, but the calendar changes every year since the start date is the rise of the star Sirius (Sopdet in AE) so it would depend when the New Year is locally to start the festivals.  Unless we wanted a fixed calendar just starting somewhere in August.  I also think that many of the holidays celebrated will depend heavily on which deities one is devoted to.  I would say the major ones would be the 5 Days Upon the Year, the New Year, the Wag festival (which is devoted to the Akhu or the ancestors) and the Mysteries of Wesir (which remembers the death and resurrection of Wesir, mourning of Aset and Nebet Het--I have a four day celebration of this somewhere, and it is as Darkhawk is fond of saying a planting festival). 

I know there are two more festivals but it may depend on if you normally worship them or not.  Amun, Mut and Khonsu have a big one and so do Heru and Hethert with the Beautiful Reunion.

Also there are the new and full moons to consider as well.  There were festivals for those in AE too. 

In that case, and taking a leaf from Judaism, how about a lunar calendar with solar correction at say, the summer solstice? Or the first of August?

And there were festivals for the Nisut or symbolically for the Nisut (so what do we do with those?  Throw them out because we don't have a Nisut?  I favor that idea). 

Yeah. It would be like the USA celebrating Victoria day.

Some festivals also tell us what to do for them:  Lighting the Lamps for Nit or Aset Webenut (Luminous) are both a festival of lights for those goddesses.  You light candles for them (for Aset Webenut some people put tealights in something so they can float on water to carry the prayers to Aset).  I've done this myself, by myself and I wish I had taken a picture. 

Now that sounds like a great idea.  Smiley Looks like not all festivals are problematic as to meaning vs. timing ... which ones are? Or should we just get the major ones thrashed out first?
Logged
SatAset
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 06, 2011, 10:27:55 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Orthodox, Heathen, Orisa devotee
Posts: 886


Avatar and Sig Image by Lykaios

Blog entries (1)



Ignore
« Reply #3: March 30, 2007, 09:03:37 am »

In that case, and taking a leaf from Judaism, how about a lunar calendar with solar correction at say, the summer solstice? Or the first of August?

Yeah. It would be like the USA celebrating Victoria day.

Now that sounds like a great idea.  Smiley Looks like not all festivals are problematic as to meaning vs. timing ... which ones are? Or should we just get the major ones thrashed out first?

Some festivals are based on lunar dates, and others aren't.  There is a lunar calendar which is what the festival calendar is.  http://www.asetnet.net/aboutcal.html

Some festivals were just local ones for certain temples and others were celebrated all over Egypt.  The ones I know of in the State Festivals (pilgrims came by boatloads to celebrate them) are:

State Festivals

Wep Ronpet
This is the New Year festival. Gifts were given on this day. A rededication ceremony on the Eve or Day of New Year's, was performed; this was a mixture of the Opening of the Mouth Ritual and the Daily Ritual. Processions of all the deities in the temples took place. Offerings were presented. The statues were put in the sun at midday. Then they were put back in the shrines.

The Wag Festival
This is the festival honoring the dead.

Festival of Opet
Procession of Amun, Mut and Khonsu from Karnak to Luxor.

Mysteries of  Wesir
Commemoration of the death and rebirth of Wesir. Planting festival.

Installation of the Sacred Falcon
A Falcon was chosen by Heru Behdet as an heir. This falcon was crowned symbolizing the rejuvination of the Nisut.

Festival of Victory
Heru of Behdet's victory over Set is celebrated via sacred plays. The Legend of the Winged Disk was recited after the play. Heru as the winged disk stops a rebellion in Nubia and cuts off Set's head.

Harvest Festival of Min
The Nisut cut the first grain. Aset was honored as the ancestress of the Wesir Nisuts (dead kings). Min along with Aset were said to rejuvinate the land for a bountiful harvest.

The Beautiful Feast of the Valley
Sacred Images of Amun and Mut and Khonsu are taken to the cemetary and the ancestors are honored.

Feast of the Joyous Reunion and the Festival of Behdet
Hethert of Dendera was taken on a fourteen day procession to Mut of Karnak and Nebet Het and Anuket at Komir, among other temples. Then on the New Moon Hethert made it to Edfu where she would marry Heru of Behdet (Edfu). Rituals and offerings were performed. The celebrants had a feast. On the fourth day, Heru and Hethert were taken to the Necropolis to rejuvinated the divine ancestors (dead gods who died at Edfu); this is the Festival of Behdet. Ceremonies were performed. Days 5 to 14, either they resumed the cemetary rites or resumed the Joyous Reunion rites on a lesser scale. On the Fourteenth day, Hethert was taken back to Dendera.

Sources:

Allison Roberts. Hathor Rising. 1997.

Christine Farvard-Meeks and Dimitri Meeks. Daily Life of the Egyptian Gods. 1996.

R. T. Rundle-Clark. Myth and Symbol in Ancient Egypt. 1959.

Barbara Watterson. House of Horus at Edfu. 1998. (Pages: 90, 91, 99, 100, 109).

Lunar Festivals are:

These festivals would begin either on the New or Full Moon in their respective months.

Eve of the Festival of Opet: 2nd Akhet

Festival of Opet: 2nd Akhet

The Beautiful Feast of the Valley: 1st Shomu

Feast of the Joyous Reunion and the Festival of Behdet: 3rd Shomu
Begins officially on the New Moon.

Sources:

El-Sabban, Sherif. Temple Festival Calendars of Ancient Egypt. 2000.

Donald Redford. Ancient Gods Speak. 2002.

Kerry Wisner. Eye of the Sun. 2002.

Barbara Watterson. House of Horus at Edfu. 1998.
Logged

I am the Goddess of Who I can Become. I mix the magic of the sorceress with the blade of a warrior. I walk the liminal pathways to see the face of the Goddess, both terrible and kind. As She stares back at me, I tremble in awe and ecstasy.  --Me
Juni
Adept Member
*****
*
*
Last Login:May 18, 2015, 03:18:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Misticism
TCN ID: Juni
Posts: 2302


Strive to be happy.

Blog entries (2)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #4: March 30, 2007, 10:09:25 am »

3.  I think that one is the most feasible, but the calendar changes every year since the start date is the rise of the star Sirius (Sopdet in AE) so it would depend when the New Year is locally to start the festivals.

Does the date stay in a certain range (like the equinoxes & solstices) or would it be a considerable change after 5 years or so? (Like, more than a week in either direction?) Something I've been thinking about, for 'dates' that would change considerably, is to set a date and have the calendar adjusted every couple years. So, you'd (general) sit and figure out a calendar for the coming year based on the current star positions, and apply it to the calendar up to year 5 say, and then when the time comes to make year 6's calendar, adjust based on the new current star positions. Holidays might move a week or two, but it wouldn't be drastic and it'd be easier than redoing the calendar every year.
Logged


.: Eleven-Pm.org .:. updated 30 June :.

"I don't go anywhere without my mutated anthrax! 'Fer duck huntin." - Futurama
SatAset
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 06, 2011, 10:27:55 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Orthodox, Heathen, Orisa devotee
Posts: 886


Avatar and Sig Image by Lykaios

Blog entries (1)



Ignore
« Reply #5: March 30, 2007, 10:19:12 am »

Does the date stay in a certain range (like the equinoxes & solstices) or would it be a considerable change after 5 years or so? (Like, more than a week in either direction?) Something I've been thinking about, for 'dates' that would change considerably, is to set a date and have the calendar adjusted every couple years. So, you'd (general) sit and figure out a calendar for the coming year based on the current star positions, and apply it to the calendar up to year 5 say, and then when the time comes to make year 6's calendar, adjust based on the new current star positions. Holidays might move a week or two, but it wouldn't be drastic and it'd be easier than redoing the calendar every year.

LOL!  I did my calendar a few years back (2003?)  and haven't changed it since.  Of course I just picked a random date in August to start because I had no way of calculating the star's position where I live. 

It wouldn't change too much (four days to a week) per year when doing the calendar.  Honestly, I'd just rather have a calendar and not change it.  It took me weeks to put mine together and I don't want to touch it!

In AE, sometimes the calendar would go years without being updated, but I think that was the  Intermediate periods or maybe the later period? 



Logged

I am the Goddess of Who I can Become. I mix the magic of the sorceress with the blade of a warrior. I walk the liminal pathways to see the face of the Goddess, both terrible and kind. As She stares back at me, I tremble in awe and ecstasy.  --Me
SatAset
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 06, 2011, 10:27:55 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Orthodox, Heathen, Orisa devotee
Posts: 886


Avatar and Sig Image by Lykaios

Blog entries (1)



Ignore
« Reply #6: March 30, 2007, 10:24:15 am »



Of course then we'd have to decide where to calculate the rising of the star from.  Do we do it where we individually live?  From the Co-Hosts' city?  From Egypt? 

Calculations make my head hurt.  Math is not my forte. 

Logged

I am the Goddess of Who I can Become. I mix the magic of the sorceress with the blade of a warrior. I walk the liminal pathways to see the face of the Goddess, both terrible and kind. As She stares back at me, I tremble in awe and ecstasy.  --Me
Juni
Adept Member
*****
*
*
Last Login:May 18, 2015, 03:18:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Misticism
TCN ID: Juni
Posts: 2302


Strive to be happy.

Blog entries (2)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7: March 30, 2007, 10:26:45 am »

Of course then we'd have to decide where to calculate the rising of the star from.  Do we do it where we individually live?  From the Co-Hosts' city?  From Egypt? 

Calculations make my head hurt.  Math is not my forte.

Mine either!

How much difference is there between when a star rises in, say, Egypt, and the other side of the planet? Is it a terribly significant difference?
Logged


.: Eleven-Pm.org .:. updated 30 June :.

"I don't go anywhere without my mutated anthrax! 'Fer duck huntin." - Futurama
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Moderator
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:January 01, 2017, 09:38:48 am
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #8: March 30, 2007, 11:15:32 am »

Of course then we'd have to decide where to calculate the rising of the star from.  Do we do it where we individually live?  From the Co-Hosts' city?  From Egypt?

One of the things in the distant, distant future of my to-do is to code something that will calculate the new year from a given location.  (There's a webapp that exists, but it's hard to use and I'm not sure I trust it.)  I figured that independent folks might want something for their location and indie groups might want something from their major group's location, and I know one person who prefers to calculate from capital-of-country-of-residence on the basic principle that that's one of the meanings of the location the ancients chose, so.

For a given location, the year doesn't drift by more than a day or two -- it's a sidereal year measurement, like equinox to equinox, so it's fairly consistent for a given latitude/longitude.  However, depending on where one is on the planet, the date can vary by something like three weeks (end of July through mid-August).

Calendars are a pain in the arse.

*goes through SatAset's list of references for calendars to make sure she has all of the ones she doesn't have on her to-get list*
Logged

SatAset
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 06, 2011, 10:27:55 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Orthodox, Heathen, Orisa devotee
Posts: 886


Avatar and Sig Image by Lykaios

Blog entries (1)



Ignore
« Reply #9: March 30, 2007, 11:52:16 am »

Mine either!

How much difference is there between when a star rises in, say, Egypt, and the other side of the planet? Is it a terribly significant difference?

I've heard from the beginning of August to mid August, but that's just in the US. 

I think it rises in Kemet in August today.  Hmmm. 
Logged

I am the Goddess of Who I can Become. I mix the magic of the sorceress with the blade of a warrior. I walk the liminal pathways to see the face of the Goddess, both terrible and kind. As She stares back at me, I tremble in awe and ecstasy.  --Me
SatAset
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 06, 2011, 10:27:55 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Orthodox, Heathen, Orisa devotee
Posts: 886


Avatar and Sig Image by Lykaios

Blog entries (1)



Ignore
« Reply #10: March 30, 2007, 11:57:17 am »



Calendars are a pain in the arse.

*goes through SatAset's list of references for calendars to make sure she has all of the ones she doesn't have on her to-get list*

I agree with that! 

Kerry Wisner's book uses Parker's book on Calendars (1950) as a source which I haven't been able to get ahold of (it's really rare) so since I had Wisner's book, I used that. 

Have fun reading! 
Logged

I am the Goddess of Who I can Become. I mix the magic of the sorceress with the blade of a warrior. I walk the liminal pathways to see the face of the Goddess, both terrible and kind. As She stares back at me, I tremble in awe and ecstasy.  --Me
sefiru
Master Member
****
Last Login:April 11, 2016, 06:41:55 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Kemetic
Posts: 661

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #11: March 31, 2007, 06:53:14 am »

Some festivals are based on lunar dates, and others aren't.  There is a lunar calendar which is what the festival calendar is.  http://www.asetnet.net/aboutcal.html

Some festivals were just local ones for certain temples and others were celebrated all over Egypt.  The ones I know of in the State Festivals (pilgrims came by boatloads to celebrate them) are:



Ah, I see. Seems like the State Festivals would be a good start for putting together a calendar ... New Year and the festival for the dead would seem (first impression here) to be the most ... how shall I put this? the most accessible? or universal? The Mysteries of Wesir and Harvest Festival of Min would have to be adapted in practice I think.

As for the calendar start date, we could just start it on Aug. 1. Or find out what dates Sirius rises and pick the middle one or first one. I agree that, if the date doesn't move by more than a few days, we should just pick a day and not bother with shifting around.
Logged
Chabas
Reserve Staff
Staff
Master Member
***
Last Login:August 15, 2014, 01:06:27 pm
Netherlands Netherlands

Religion: Kemetic
Posts: 444


Blog entries (1)


« Reply #12: March 31, 2007, 03:32:17 pm »

As for the calendar start date, we could just start it on Aug. 1. Or find out what dates Sirius rises and pick the middle one or first one. I agree that, if the date doesn't move by more than a few days, we should just pick a day and not bother with shifting around.

Honestly, if we want to pick one date, I'd be strongly in favor of basing it on the rising of Sopdet in Egypt, as opposed to something that would basically be random.

--Chabas
Logged
Diannaskye
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:May 16, 2008, 04:41:18 am
Canada Canada

Religion: Pagan
Posts: 57

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #13: April 01, 2007, 05:50:00 pm »

Ah, I see. Seems like the State Festivals would be a good start for putting together a calendar ... New Year and the festival for the dead would seem (first impression here) to be the most ... how shall I put this? the most accessible? or universal? The Mysteries of Wesir and Harvest Festival of Min would have to be adapted in practice I think.

As for the calendar start date, we could just start it on Aug. 1. Or find out what dates Sirius rises and pick the middle one or first one. I agree that, if the date doesn't move by more than a few days, we should just pick a day and not bother with shifting around.

I think that finding out the dates Sirius rises and picking the middle one would make most sense. It would be closer to all our dates then...

State festivals look like our best bet to start with. Start out easy and work our way up to not-so-easy.

Math scares me...
Logged
Derek
Master Member
****
Last Login:December 08, 2012, 03:12:38 pm
United States United States

Religion: hellenic-ish polytheist
Posts: 408


In the beginning, the Universe percieved itself.

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #14: April 03, 2007, 09:58:07 pm »

I think that finding out the dates Sirius rises...

While trying to get that info, I found http://saturniancosmology.org/can.php.  It's an article about the "Canopis Decree," a decree that effectively created a leap year.  The article notes that the decree doesn't seem to have been recieved well.

Anyway, the article states that Sirius rises on July 23 in Cairo.

Derek
Logged

The purpose of Life is to experience. In order to experience new things, one has to change and grow. Therefore, to grow is integral to fulfilling the purpose of Life.
Conversly: Monotony is an experience.  Therefore, stagnation can be integral to fulfilling the purpose of Life.

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Festivals!
Social Discussion Boards
MeadowSweet 3 1100 Last post July 19, 2008, 04:08:46 pm
by rose
Designing or adapting spells by yourself « 1 2 »
Magic and the Occult for Beginners
Waldfrau 25 7933 Last post October 13, 2008, 01:42:07 am
by aidan27
Foods for Religious Holidays/Festivals
Cooking SIG
Melamphoros 4 2692 Last post May 14, 2009, 11:36:19 am
by folksymama
Holidays/festivals which are difficult for you « 1 2 »
Holidays and Festivals
Waldfrau 18 5433 Last post October 01, 2009, 09:06:32 am
by herbalgoddess13
The Timing of Kemetic Holidays/Festivals « 1 2 »
Reformed Kemeticism SIG
Devo 15 6484 Last post January 21, 2010, 03:12:21 am
by Amuntihera
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.14 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.119 seconds with 53 queries.