Renenet and Shai, Predetermined Fate?

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[Journey]

What are some of the current views and interpretations of Renenet and Shai?

From my understanding they are basically predetermined fate. Your fate is determined at birth and remains unchangeable, except perhaps in extreme instances and only at the intervention of another deity.

I can completely comprehend of ancient peoples having this view as so much was uncontrollable in their lives; diseases, forces of nature, famine, and on and on. But in today's western world, where we can control so much and have social mobility, there is more of a free will mentality.

How applicable to western life today are Renenet and Shai?  Are all things predetermined or only some things? 

I am open to standard interpretations as well as adaptations in practice others have made.

[Lykaios]

What are some of the current views and interpretations of Renenet and Shai?

From my understanding they are basically predetermined fate. Your fate is determined at birth and remains unchangeable, except perhaps in extreme instances and only at the intervention of another deity.

I can completely comprehend of ancient peoples having this view as so much was uncontrollable in their lives; diseases, forces of nature, famine, and on and on. But in today's western world, where we can control so much and have social mobility, there is more of a free will mentality.

How applicable to western life today are Renenet and Shai?  Are all things predetermined or only some things? 

I am open to standard interpretations as well as adaptations in practice others have made.

Short honest answer: I haven’t got a clue; the jury is still out for me as to what exactly ‘fate’ means in a modern context. In fact, I had to look them up just to recall who they were. But…they are Names. That said, I would assume they can answer questions about their own nature, and I have been wanting to investigate and approach some of the lesser known Names, so…I’ll go ask.

(Hey, why not… in a fit of desire to be more open to the influence of the divine I recently opened up my apartment to the Netjer and gave away all my extra space to anyone who wanted an altar…after which Wepwawet immediately claimed my video game counsel and my bed (?)…no seriously, he was like, “Put my statue on the PSII and I’ll sleep here, thanks. You can have that corner.” I can’t decide if he’s serious or if he’s just messing with me.)

I’m starting by gathering any and all info about Renenet and Shai (or Renenutet and Shay as some resources call them, Greek/modern spellings maybe?). I have Hart’s dictionary but I won’t get a copy of Wilkinson until June (anyone have it and want to summarize relevant points for me?), and only Renenet is mentioned on the HON site. I haven’t done any other internet searches yet, but I’ll poke around. If anyone happens to come across them… post here maybe? So I can go look?

I'll post back here with whatever I find out. 

[SatAset]

I’m starting by gathering any and all info about Renenet and Shai (or Renenutet and Shay as some resources call them, Greek/modern spellings maybe?). I have Hart’s dictionary but I won’t get a copy of Wilkinson until June (anyone have it and want to summarize relevant points for me?), and only Renenet is mentioned on the HON site. I haven’t done any other internet searches yet, but I’ll poke around. If anyone happens to come across them… post here maybe? So I can go look?

I'll post back here with whatever I find out. 

Renenet is the snake (cobra) goddess of the grainary, crops etc.  She's also a goddess of childbirth. 

[Darkhawk]

I’m starting by gathering any and all info about Renenet and Shai (or Renenutet and Shay as some resources call them, Greek/modern spellings maybe?).

My understanding (and this is mostly from my time in HON with some supplemental reading) is that Renenet allots a lifespan (which can be changed by petition, particularly to Amun, though I don't remember what book I got that out of I know it's in one, maybe Morenz?).  Shai (and this is straight from Rev. Siuda, I haven't found much elsewhere) is one's calling, that which one will do in the world unless actively prevented.

[Journey]

What are some of the current views and interpretations of Renenet and Shai?
I am open to standard interpretations as well as adaptations in practice others have made.

Thanks everyone for what has been posted so far. Here is my understanding of the two:

Renenet is associated with prosperity, abundance, fertility, and material positions. She is in a way your fortune. Shai is more like your destiny. Both are already determined at ones birth. However, good deeds and living a right life could possibly extend a life-time or improve life circumstances. (sometimes at the request of another deity)

Just from their depictions, Renenet would seem to me to be the more "flexible" of the two, since she can sometimes take the form of a snake. Shai would seem more "set in stone" as he is depicted as a brick. As a brick could he also be thought of as the foundation of your life?

I have heard that the phrases inshAllah or kismet best represent the concept of destiny in the Mid-Eastern world. Could those terms be applied to Renenet and Shai?

[Lykaios]

Thanks everyone for what has been posted so far. Here is my understanding of the two:

Renenet is associated with prosperity, abundance, fertility, and material positions. She is in a way your fortune. Shai is more like your destiny. Both are already determined at ones birth. However, good deeds and living a right life could possibly extend a life-time or improve life circumstances. (sometimes at the request of another deity)

Just from their depictions, Renenet would seem to me to be the more "flexible" of the two, since she can sometimes take the form of a snake. Shai would seem more "set in stone" as he is depicted as a brick. As a brick could he also be thought of as the foundation of your life?

So here’s the thing: I’ve been sitting on this for a while because I wasn’t expecting it. I don’t know what I was expecting when I said I was going to go ask them, but for some reason I wasn’t expecting an answer. I especially wasn’t expecting one right away. I thought I’d have time to read and explore and make a mini-altar, or something, before anyone showed up. But I barely had time to close my laptop and walk into my room when I was practically ambushed. Apparently Shai doesn’t get a lot of calls, either that or I wanted my question answered more than I thought I did.

I feel a bit like I felt when I met Ma’at. A lot of people I ran into considered her “more of a concept than a goddess” and for a long time I wouldn’t talk about my experiences with her because of that.  I get the same sort of feeling about Shai. I don’t think many people consider him a proper Name. There is very little information about him to start with, and unlike Ma’at there’s no real evidence I could find that he ever had a cult in his name.  In addition to your brick reference, I also found him depicted in a snake headed anthropomorphic form. He is apparently depicted on a New Kingdom funerary papyrus of the royal scribe Ani, in the Weighing of the Heart scene. In the Graeco-Roman period he was identified with Agathodaimon from the Greek pantheon. 

He’s tall, (that’s UPG, of course, as is all that follows) and he has a calm voice, similar to how I hear Tem’s, but with less heaviness. He spoke a bit like he was outside the course of time, if that makes any sense: definitely not in a hurry, but startlingly present, not at all distracted. 

I should know by now that when I have an honest question to ask I get an answer. The truth is, this whole experiment wasn’t as flippant as I might have made it sound in my earlier post. Your question inspired me because I have been wondering something similar. I have always had a sense of fate, a feeling that I had some sort of destiny, a reason to be here. But I questioned how I could have a destiny and still retain free will. I like to think I have free will too. I’ve wrestled with this for a while. But I never knew where to take the question to before. Then I saw Shai’s name in your post and I felt a flicker of recognition. I think it was all these emotions bound up in me, in combination with the discovery of his name that led to the encounter.

He didn’t really use words per say. Like Tem (when he explained the purpose of creation to me), Shai answered me in the form of an image which represented the concept and a sort of wordless imparting of an idea which I later translated into language for the sake of being able to share it.

The image was both simple and complex. A wooden bucket filled with sand, tipped so that the sand was spilling out onto (presumably) a floor/ground that I could not see. As near as I can come to the words of a god, this was how he explained it to me:

“Fate is falling sand. You say I know the future for I know the eventuality of the sand’s journey. I do not know the journey of each grain. I know not what path you will choose to take through this world. But if you desire a destiny, some things will need to be predestined. If you ask me to guide a single grain, I must push aside some paths in favor of your heart.”

I am still a bit shaken and it has been over a week now. I’m still trying to unravel all of the mystery I sensed in that metaphor. Now, in my mind’s eye, I still see the tall figure bent over the fallen sand, etching designs in it with something. He’s so different than any of the others and yet so similar. I really don’t know what to think. But I said I would share the results of my experiment, and I hope I have made good on the promise.

I haven’t seen heads or tales of the other. But she apparently wasn’t necessary to my question, so I’m afraid you may be on your own with the other half of the question.

[Journey]

I feel a bit like I felt when I met Ma’at. A lot of people I ran into considered her “more of a concept than a goddess” and for a long time I wouldn’t talk about my experiences with her because of that.  I get the same sort of feeling about Shai. I don’t think many people consider him a proper Name. There is very little information about him to start with, and unlike Ma’at there’s no real evidence I could find that he ever had a cult in his name.  In addition to your brick reference, I also found him depicted in a snake headed anthropomorphic form. He is apparently depicted on a New Kingdom funerary papyrus of the royal scribe Ani, in the Weighing of the Heart scene. In the Graeco-Roman period he was identified with Agathodaimon from the Greek pantheon. 

What a lovely experience you had with Shai!  That is how I imagine he would be, so I think you are right on target there.
 
We are having a heavy snowfall where I am right now and just like your grains of sand they are falling down on their own paths and accumulating. Millions and millions of them. I am thinking that it may have been their destiny to fall, and their fate where they may land, on the tree tops, the ground, or the fence-post. But I suppose what you do on the ground or the fence post is up to you. If you can't already tell, you have really caused me to think. 
 
You are right about some messages being hard to put into words. Especially those from the concept deities. They are more prone to give you an "Eastern-philosophy-you-figure-out-what-it-means-to-you" type message rather than a direct answer. At least from my experience anyway.

and I didn't find anything flippant about your last post. 

(although I am responding to all of your post I only quoted part for space)

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