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Home > Chat Logs > Nature of the Divine (23 Sep 2003) Search

Chat Log:
Nature of the Divine


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This is the log of The Cauldron's September 23, 2003 chat, which was a discussion of the nature of the divine: what we believe of it and believe it is. This log may have been edited to remove extraneous comments.

Shadow: I thought, today, we'd discuss the Divine .. what we believe it is, what it means to us, how we relate to it.

Mari: Just a note. If I disappear, the cat has knocked the phone off the desk.

Shadow: :) I'll keep that in mind, Mari. ;)

Mari: ty

Shadow: When I speak of the Divine, I mean a single .. well, entity, for lack of better word, that is everything that exists, with a synergistic effect that makes it more than the sum of its parts

Star: ACTION takes up her seat on the fence

aangellmouse: personally i see the divine in most things such as the colors of the sunrise and sunset the flap of a butterflies wings the touch of a hand or the smile on a persons face

Celeste621: lol Move over Star, I find myself up there often too.

Star: ACTION makes room for Celeste

Celeste621: Thank you.

Star: (and anyone else who desires a fence seat)

Angelfly3: I think I see the divine as all that is, has ever been, and will ever be, as well as all that is not, has never been, and will never be....yet is also more than that, a whole

Lisa: ACTION doesn't like sitting on fences as one tends to get splinters up the...

aangellmouse: then again i think all gods and goddesses are part and parcle of one divine energy and that we see what we need to see of it in the form we can best relate to at that time

LaVeleda: *JOIN* Entered room.

Celeste621: I think of the Divine as a conscious force with limits. I'm not sure what those limits are, but logic would tell me that they may be there.

Celeste621: Hi, LaVeleda.

Shadow: hello

LaVeleda: ACTION smiles "Hello and good evening."

Lisa: Shadow are you asking for what we define the Divine as discussion or where you planning on teaching?

Shadow: heh .. I'm not qualified to teach.

Mari: :D

Shadow: discussion, for anyone with an opinion

Lisa: brb

Celeste621: Have you been thinking about this more since you've been working with flame keeping, Shadow?

Celeste621: Or is this an old topic for you?

Shadow: mmmm, both, I think. It's something I believed anyway, but I've been working more on fleshing it out since

Celeste621: Gotcha.

Shadow: I've a lot of bits and pieces worked out, although it's very hard to make sense sometimes .. one loses a sense of *self* after a point

Celeste621: Howso?

Shadow: because if everything is part of the Divine, that includes us .. we are each our own, individual selves, but we are also part of the Divine here-and-now

Shadow: not someday, when we're good enough .. right now, as we are.

Star: Myself, I'm on the fence because I'm definitely all about the idea that there are definitely separate deities, and I don't think they're all one--but I feel like there's SOMETHING else there, too, more universal--I just don't know what.

Celeste621: Ah, I see what you mean.

Shadow: heh. I ALSO believe in separate individual Deities. :D

Mari: I'm going to try to explain this as simply as I can ... In the Gwyddoniad, there's what we call "The Boundless". The Boundless is made up of absolutely everything. Everything that is - and everything that isn't, everything that has been, everything that may potentially be. There are levels of existence in the cosmos, two of those being (for our purposes here) godhood and human being.

Captain_Koi_-_Arrr_: *JOIN* Entered room.

Shadow: after all .. all humans are part of the Divine, but I am not you. I think it works similarly for gods ...

Shadow: hey, Koi

Celeste621: Hi, Koi.

Angelfly3: I also believe in separate individuals, who have their own minds, like people, yet who are also part of the Divine

echo_8: Namaste Koi. :)

echo_8: sort of like the collective unconscious?

Mari: For us the gods are all as individual and as unique and separate as we humans are.

Mari: They've just achieved a higher level of "being".

Koi: hey :)

Mari: Is that to me, Echo? Or?

Celeste621: It makes sense to me if there were seperate deities connected by something. That's pretty vague though. :/

Shadow: mmmm .... to me, Echo, it would be as if the collective unconcious was concious and intelligent

Celeste621: Mari, do you have beliefs about what they were before they reached this level?

Shadow: I don't believe that's usually what's meant when one says collective unconcious

echo_8: well, I guess it could be to anyone, Mari, but I was directing it more to Shadow. *giggles*

Mari: Celeste - yes = they were human. Most of them were.

Celeste621: Hm, I've heard of that belief before somewhere. Ok.

Shadow: I'm not sure if gods were once human .. I, personally, doubt it. but I sure as heck don't know! :D

Shadow: for all I know, they COULD be space aliens ... but I really, really doubt it. :D

Celeste621: Yeah, that's always the trick. You don't know for sure, so there are so many possibilities to accept.

Celeste621: lol

aangellmouse: if they were once human then was there a divine force prior to the coming of man or did humans simply create then grow to fullfill the space of the devine?

Shadow: well, and I think admitting our ignorance in the face of the Divine is important. we CAN'T understand something so much vaster than ourselves

Star: Good point

Shadow: we can't understand EACH OTHER or OURSELVES fully, what makes us think we can comprehend the Divine? :)

Angelfly3: I don't know whether I believe the gods were once human....on one hand, it makes sense with my beliefs about reincarnation across species

Mari: The Bboundless, Yvonne

Celeste621: Very true. I feel ok saying "I don't know" about many issues because I can't expect to understand it all.

Angelfly3: but at the same time, I get the feeling that they are not

Shadow: I believe the Gods are a way of the Divine trying to reach us as we tried to reach it.

LaVeleda: *PART* Left room.

Mari: We teach that there was the Boundless, then there was a spark which realized it was Conscious. That spark called herself Kerridwen the Great. KtG created herself out of the Boundless and then went on to create the Manifest realm.

Shadow: an intermediary that took on life of their own

Shadow: Change the names to protect the innocent, and I believe something similar

Celeste621: Is the Boundless sort of like the universe or "what is"?

Shadow: although I believe the Divine IS the physical Universe .. there is no *outside* to me

Mari: no

aangellmouse: that makes sense too

Mari: I wrote waaaaay up there.T

Shadow: but that all things physical can also be spiritual/mental, and vice versa

Mari: The Boundless is everything and nothing

Mari: Scroll waaay back. It's up there somewhere.

Celeste621: Oh, I'm sorry. I missed that.

Celeste621: I'll go check.

Mari: I'd c/p it but unfortunately, you can't do that with this chatroom anymore

Celeste621: No no, sorry about that.

Mari: :D

Celeste621: Thanks, makes more sense after I read it. :)

Mari: good :D

Mari: Now, for the fun part of that ...

Mari: We teach that "there is ONE Boundless Being - and YOU are that."

Celeste621: Hm.

Mari: In other words, *everything* is part of the whole

Shadow: I've never liked the idea of God/the Divine standing outside the Universe, for some reason. I believe the first moment the spark of stuff that existed realized it existed, it caused the Big Bang

Shadow: there wasn't room for both the *stuff* and the *thought* to occupy the same space

Shadow: heh .. one is individual, AND one is part of the greater Whole? :D

Celeste621: I'm going to pull a muscle trying to comprehend that I think, lol. Wow. Only one and it's a part? Hm.

Celeste621: Sounds like a paradox.

Mari: I'll send you another copy of my Sameness article and beat you with it

Mari: Nope.

Shadow: it's not paradox ... it's Mystery. it's not something that can really be comprehended with the logical mind

aangellmouse: like facets on a gem mair?

Shadow: it's as if your blood cells took up intelligence and personal freedom.

Shadow: they'd each be individual .. but you can't think of them as separate from you, no matter what they didi

Shadow: bah.. did

Mari: That's right Von

Celeste621: Hm, ok.

Mari: And Shadow

Mari: nothing is apart or separate from anything else

Mari: Everything is interconnected

Celeste621: That perspective helps a bit.

aangellmouse: that is basically how i see things i see that each god and goddess are just different facets of the same energy

Shadow: that, but yet individual, also?

Celeste621: I feel so silly :") I don't have any beliefs that indepth or complex I think. Maybe I just haven't thought it out enough.

Shadow: I think the other important part, TO ME, is that we are individual for a reason

Shadow: heh. there are times I wish I hadn't delved so much into my own mind, Celeste, it's scary in here! :D

Celeste621: :)

Mari: Yes individual, also. Our ego is what allows us to realize that we are individual

Shadow: the goal isn't to give up our individuality .. OR to forget that we are part of a greater whole

Shadow: we grow from both sides, and are greater for being both

Mari: Yup

aangellmouse: well even with a gem the facets are each individual the crystal may appear the same but the structural views and flaws within each are different and unique

Mari: Exactly!

Angelfly3: and perhaps the Divine is greater for having both aspects....if it were only one, or only individuals, it couldn't be as much as it is now

Shadow: if the Divine were not also made up of many individuals, I don't think it could grow and learn

Shadow: we learn through our individuality .. through exploring and trying and pushing against others, even as they push against us, seeking boundaries

Celeste621: Would there be any advantages to *not* having all of these individual perspectives?

Celeste621: For the Divine as a whole, I mean.

Shadow: our minds stagnate without something to push back against

Shadow: heh .. it would be a lot more peaceful, were we not to exist! :D

Celeste621: Heh, good point. :) Maybe more boring though.

Shadow: there would be a lot less pain, as well .. we do the Divine a lot of harm through what we do to each other

Star: The gem analogy reminds me of a piece of amethyst I have... An eight-sided crystal, all faces being triangular and approximately the same size. The thing is... If you look at it from one direction, it looks like there's only a little dot of purple in the middle. If you look at it from another angle, it looks about half purple. From still another angle, it looks completely purple.

Star: Same stone, but three different appearances... At least three. Probably more.

Shadow: everything we feel, the Divine feels .. good and bad

aangellmouse: yes that is much of how i view the divine

aangellmouse: they are all connected yet vary in views

Celeste621: I wonder if the Divine will someday not be like it is now, if it will change.

Celeste621: :/ I have too many questions in my head tonight, sorry. lol Just thinking outloud.

Celeste621: I like the gem analogy and the amethyst one too, that makes sense.

Shadow: I believe part of the purpose of life is so the Divine CAN grow, actually

DewMak: *JOIN* Entered room.

Celeste621: Hi, DewMak.

DewMak: hi all

Shadow: it can exist alone forever, and stagnate .. but only through individuality is growth possible. :)

Shadow: hello

Koi: that's one of my favorite ... um ... heresies, I guess :D

Celeste621: Hm, makes sense I suppose for the Divine to grow as well.

Shadow: ACTION does the heretic dance

Celeste621: :)

Shadow: wait, I'm not Catholic. can't be a heretic. DAMN.

Koi: I have a book with Christians and Jews speculating on that somewhere

Koi: my Evil professor says it's heresy, but I think it's rather poetic :D

Angelfly3: I've thought that, too, but I've wondered why the Divine wants to grow in the first it just part of its being to want to grow, or at some point did it decide?

Celeste621: lol poetic heresy, i like it.

Celeste621: Maybe it can't help but to grow? I dunno.

Celeste621: We can't help growing and changing.

Shadow: well, after you've sat around for X billion years, wouldn't you get bored? :D

aangellmouse: if humans echo the divine and we are continuously growing and evolving doesn't it stand to reason that the divine is as well?

Mari: I've been around for almost 35, and I'm bored to death.

Celeste621: ^^

Koi: does the divine stand to reason?

Shadow: but also .. I think that drive we have to explore, to learn .. our creative spark. Perhaps THAT is our truest inheritance from the Divine .. what is mostly in the Divine image.

Mari: I agree Von

DewMak: *PART* Left room.

Shadow: heh .. of course the Divine stands to reason, Koi ... it's own. :D

Celeste621: If we echo it, yes, I'd think so.

Koi: but the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men, as they say :D

Shadow: Mari .. I'll liven things up. come up and visit, I'll get the firecrackers and a chiropractor. ;)

Mari: oh lord

aangellmouse: just gives us something to strive for

Shadow: I believe there IS a reason .. I also suspect that if I was told it by the Divine, my head would explode from trying to comprehend and failing

aangellmouse: i agree with that thought shadow

Shadow: why is the idea that the Divine grows a heresy, Koi?

Koi: because God is complete and perfect

Mari: pppppffffffffffffffffffffffffft

Shadow: ah. of course, silly question.

Mari: :runs:

Koi: and that implies a certain unchangingness. you can't be MORE perfect if you're ALREADY perfect

Shadow: I just don't believe in perfection. :D

echo_8: perfection is a paradox, imo.. I love it. lol

Celeste621: Maybe just continuing on in perfection. :)

Koi: also, the idea of a changeable diety upsets a lot of people, but I think it's biblically supported, so pfft to that :D

Mari: A paradox?

Celeste621: lol

Mari: Howso?

Shadow: I find the idea of an UNCHANGING deity more upsetting, personally, but then, I'm weird.

Mari: Me too

Angelfly3: the problem with that would be defining perfect, I perfect a still state, or a state of changing? could something change from what was once perfect and still be perfect?

Mari: IMHO, there's no "perfect" anything.

Shadow: I like to think everyone/thing can learn .. that learning and growing is part of what existance is meant to be

aangellmouse: if the divine encompasses all things paradox would be yet one more aspect that it would need to cover

Shadow: why else would we be so darn curious?

Shadow: often, IMO, an apparent paradox is actually a great truth

echo_8: well.. if something is perfect, it needs to longer grow, etc.. it becomes essentially stagnate, and what becomes stagnate, because it doesn't change, breaks down eventually... but then.. in a sense.. everything is "perfect" because things have to change in order to survive/exist, etc. and all that jazz?

Shadow: we are individual, we are part of a greater whole. apparent paradox

aangellmouse: perfection in my book is just a carrot in front of the ass so to speak we are always stretching toward it but will never reach it the journey is more important that the destination

Celeste621: Isn't a paradox usually considered false only by western standards?

Star: ACTION feels her eyes cross

echo_8: I agree, Shadow, I love a good paradox.. the tao te ching rocks. lol

Shadow: there's that, too, Celeste

Celeste621: I thought in other areas of the world a paradox was like you said- something we're unable to comprehend but not necessarily untrue.

Celeste621: Ok.

Celeste621: Hm.

Angelfly3: I think maybe we are perfect, and yet at the same time always striving toward perfection........we are failing, but we are meant to be failing, and so our failing is perfection

Shadow: Star .. the idea is NOT to understand it logically. the logical mind is not our only instrument of understanding

Star: Why does perfection have to be a constant, unchanging thing?

Mari: But if we're all made up of the same stuff, that means we're all part of the whole, part of All Things. Yup.

Shadow: I think we are perfect .. ly human. :)

echo_8: the opposite of a true statement is a false statement, but the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth -niehls bohr

Shadow: Bohr? really?

Star: I'm working on it, Shadow... For all my water affinity, I'm still an Air sign, though. ;)

Shadow: I thought that was ... damn. I really thought that was someone else

Koi: yeah, that quote was in my Chandlers a couple weeks ago!

Celeste621: Good quote, Echo.

aangellmouse: i like that echo it sounds right to me

Celeste621: *copies and pastes that in a safe place*

echo_8: I have a thing for quotes. :x

Celeste621: oh foo, I'll have to wait for the transcripts.

Celeste621: lol I enjoy hunting up good quotes too.

Shadow: heh. I understand, Star, in many ways I'm a hard-nosed realist, too. Then I realized .. it doesn't matter.

Shadow: something can be true without me needing to *understand* it

Star: True

Shadow: and if it IS true, my lack of comprehension doesn't mean a damn thing

Shadow: I cannot unmake reality by my lack of comprehension. (which is good, or a whole lotta things wouldn't exist!)

echo_8: yeah.. physics..oye..

Star: I'm still driven to make things make logical sense, though. Up to a point, that is--and once I hit that point I get it instinctively and can't explain it for the world, usually. :)

Shadow: pesky physics. keeps existing no matter what we try to do to get around them

GrabLove: *JOIN* Entered room.

Celeste621: Hi, GrabLove.

Shadow: hello

GrabLove: hi everyone

GrabLove: my current gripe is

Shadow: I understand, Star .. our minds are wired for logic, and we try to make that goal no matter what

GrabLove: has the Bible been altered down through the ages?

Shadow: GrabLove, the topic is the Divine and our understandings of it

GrabLove: ok

Shadow: I think that the Divine doesn't listen to our logic, though

GrabLove: is understanding of the Divine through reading of the Bible?

Shadow: much as we try to force it back there. :)

aangellmouse: it has been massively altered through the ages perhaps this is due to a constantly evolving view of how mankind views the divine?

Koi: grab, if you private message me I'm happy to discuss that with you

Shadow: um .. you are aware this is a PAGAN chat room, aren't you?

Star: Oh, probably not. That's what makes it hard to understand Divinity. :)

Celeste621: I don't use the bible to understand the Divine, not my holy book.

GrabLove: to a Catholic, a Jew is a pagan and vice versa

Shadow: which also raises the question of, is it the Divine changing, us changing, or both?

Star: ACTION sighs

Mari: Yes

Mari: :D

Koi: um, I can say that to a Catholic a Jew is not a pagan

Star: I'll go with Mari's answer

GrabLove: ok i shut up

Koi: and Grab please get on topic

GrabLove: going for a coffee

aangellmouse: with mankind changing the views on the divine to suit our personal needs would that also change the texts that various groups use along with their worship of the divine?

echo_8: or for political purposes, but so goes

Mari: Yup. That's why my group has very strict rules about changing our texts

aangellmouse: and does anyone think that we change the divine with our personal perseptions of it?

Mari: Wait. I think I read your post completely backward

Star: Change the TEXTS or change how they're READ?

aangellmouse: both actually

Shadow: I think we change the Divine, and it changes us, both

Shadow: everything we are, everything we do, is part of the Divine .. our hearts inch things more towards love or hate, more towards good or evil

Mari: Kinda like Chaos Theory, Shadow?

Angelfly3: I don't know that our actual perceptions of the Divine change it, so much as what we do with those perceptions

Celeste621: I'm not sure if I believe that we have a direct impact on the Divine in that respect. Hm...something to consider.

Shadow: I eat chaos theory for breakfast! :D

Mari: The whole if a butterfly flaps it's wings in China, it rains in New York?

Shadow: I mean .. sure

Shadow: not quite to that extreme

Mari: :D

aangellmouse: the bible is a good example simply because of how long it has been around it has evolved over the years to suit the needs of the people that use it. does that then destroy it's use as a text on that perseption of the divine? and are we doing so with other texts as well?

Shadow: but if what we are is part of the greater whole, than what we do can CHANGE that greater whole

Celeste621: Hm.

Shadow: perhaps not to a great extent, but then, there's an awful lot of us to push, too. :D

Koi: except, aangellmouse, the bible really hasn't evolved much over the last 1678 years

aangellmouse: do the changes in the religious texts used by any given people reflect the deep feelings and perceptions and if so does that alter the divine or the aspect of it that we see?

Celeste621: I was thinking about that, to what extent? Maybe not in huge ways, but I could see in subtle ways.

Star: OK, um, I hate to do this... But the topic is really not about religious texts changing. Can we get back to the "nature of the divine" topic please?...

Shadow: dude, you shouldn't have that number at your fingertips.

Koi: canon definitive in 325 ... current year is 2003 ... it's just subtraction :D

Koi: *pokes topic*

Shadow: I don't think anything happens IN ISOLATION, no. Everything has an effect .. the question is, what and where

Star: So... we were on the topic of perfection. *Is* the Divine perfect, then? And what does that mean?

Shadow: if I do something that affects someone else, I've affected the Divine

Mari: But aren't religious books a REFLECTION of how people SEE the divine?

Star: (And does it matter? )

Shadow: I still don't believe in perfection

Mari: That's what Yvonne is asking

aangellmouse: i got bumped from msn

Koi: in what sense, Mari?

Mari: And I don't believe in perfection either

Koi: they're both a reflection of the writers (and editors) and readers

Shadow: I think it's silly to think we exist in isolation .. nothing exists in isolation

Koi: unless they're really unidimensional :D

Mari: In the sense that humans wrote the texts because of how WE see the divine

Mari: Right, von?

aangellmouse: exactly mairwen

Mari: excellent :D

Angelfly3: I don't know what perfection is to say whether the Divine is or is not

GrabLove: i agree with Angelfly3

aangellmouse: i simply used the bible as an example because most existing pagan texts have been around for a much shorter time period and the books to the best of my knowledge discribe how any given group percieves the nature of the divine

HOYDEN2: *JOIN* Entered room.

Shadow: I think we may perceive the Divine as perfect, but it's from our lack of perspective

Shadow: HOYDEN! *pounce*

Hoyden: hey :)

Koi: hoyden!

Koi: let the wild rumpus begin :D

Hoyden: howdy peoples :)

Hoyden: lol

Celeste621: Hey, Hoyden.

GrabLove: hi Hoyden

Shadow: after all, from our perspective, a moon is really darn big .. but a planet is bigger, and the sun bigger yet .. and there are bigger suns than ours ....

Shadow: perspective covers a lot

Shadow: the Divine is EVERYTHING that exists .. that's awfully big. :D

GrabLove: that is incrimprehensible

Shadow: what? that the Divine is really big?

Mari: *PART* Left room.

Shadow: ACTION is confused

GrabLove: how can you comprehend all that is?

Star: The concept of infinity is incomprehensible... We can't properly comprehend it. :)

Shadow: er .. isn't that what I said?

Mari_-_Grudge_Queen: *JOIN* Entered room.

Shadow: that working yet, Mari?

GrabLove: so to me the concept of reality is what my five senses tell me

GrabLove: and that can be changed

Shadow: er .. if you're only going by your five senses, doesn't that leave out a lot?

Mari_-_Grudge_Queen: I think I'm here.

Shadow: one can't believe what one reads, because you didn't experience it .. or one's heart .......

GrabLove: i am a realist today

Star: It wasn't quite what I heard, Shadow... What I heard was that we had an imperfect perspective on Divinity, which is not quite the same thing as not being able to comprehend it at *all* even if we had the right perspective.

Shadow: ah. I misspoke, then, sorry

Shadow: even the topic is incomprehensible?

GrabLove: no, we are talking about it

Star: 'S ok, that's what this whole "further discussion" thing is about, isn't it? Clarifying what we've said and what we think we've heard? :)

Shadow: but we cannot understand, truly, what we are *part of* .. perhaps the Divine could be understood .. from the outside. but there IS no outside

Shadow: it's like observer bias. :D

Hoyden: what level of divinity are you talking about?

Shadow: well, I'm talking about THE Divine .. all that is. :D

Mari: The Boundless :D

Shadow: I think you've heard me on this topic before?

Hoyden: I think so

Hoyden: I tend to split it up into first Spirit and then the various deities

Shadow: but all divisions are false. even though they're true. ;)

Mari: Thats' kinda the Gwyddon viewpoint, as well ...

Hoyden: ah, well, I don't know about that...depends on what you mean

Mari: Anybody else hungry? I'm starving.

Mari: ACTION brings out food and drink carts

GrabLove: it seems stupid to constantly be theorising all day about such things

aangellmouse: lol deep thinking must be burning up all your energy

GrabLove: when no real proof will surface

Shadow: ah, well, thank you for telling me what I work on all day is stupid

Shadow: good to know

Mari: Why? Theorizing is how we learn!

Celeste621: It's how some people strive to define certain aspects of their faith.

Shadow: here I thought it might be useful

aangellmouse: i think it helps us to grow as a person

Celeste621: What's so stupid about that?

Mari: amen.

Star: GrabLove, with all due respect, that's what we're here to do tonight... So if you think it's pointless... Why are you here?

GrabLove: my pleasure

Shadow: without thought, without curiosity, without pushing the boundaries of our understanding outwards AND in, what are we?

Hoyden: people

Hoyden: :) sorry, had to

Mari: absolutely nothing

Shadow: are we? are we really people if we don't think, though?

Mari: bricks?

Shadow: sheep?

Celeste621: Anti-intellectual? Bad thoughts, baaaaaad thoughts!

GrabLove: Shadow you are desperately trying to shove your idea of reality down my throat and I won't be bullied

Mari: No, she's not, imho.

Hoyden: well, we start as people...whether we become as fully-developed people as possible is up to us

Shadow: er .. this is a discussion chat. you don't have to agree, but you DO have to be on-topic

Shadow: if you don't like the topic, you don't have to stay

Shadow: but I'm not changing the topic because you find it prostletyzing

QueenIsis69: *JOIN* Entered room.

GrabLove: Shadow started it with appeared to be a sarcastic remark

aangellmouse: grab love we are each free to state our beliefs upon the nature of the divine and we are discusing those

Hoyden: hello

Mari: {{{{ISIS!}}}}}}

Shadow: hello

Star: All right, guys. Cool off, please.

Star: GrabLove, they're right--you don't like the topic, you don't have to be here.

Mari: <--- Mairwen here, Isis :D Good to see you again

GrabLove: Shadow is free to be sarcastic and I am not?

Angelfly3: I wonder....would the Divine still develop if we didn't think, or push the boundaries of understanding, if we just experienced and left it at that?

Mari: I thin the divine would be sorely disappointed if we didn't.

Angelfly3: would we still grow?

Mari: but that's just mho

Angelfly3: I think perhaps we would, but not nearly as much

Star: Shadow is on topic. You are not.

Shadow: mmm .. would intelligent creatures exist, if experiencing was enough?

Mari: I don't think we grow without thought or pushing, though.

Shadow: or would there just be dinos and whatnot still?

Mari: I mean, my cat is here sleeping on the desk, kinda experiencing the conversation, but is she profiting from it?? ;-)

Shadow: I mean .. why else would intelligent creatures exist, but to use that intelligence?

GrabLove: how can anyone say that dinos are only 6000 years old

Angelfly3: not from the conversation, probably, but possibly from sleeping

GrabLove: this creation theory is garbage

QueenIsis69: merry meet all, how is everyone doing

aangellmouse: isis i am happy to see you made it

Celeste621: Hi, queenisis. :)

Mari: I thought about that Angelfly, as soon as I pressed send LOL

Angelfly3: lol

QueenIsis69: yeah i made it lol

Mari: :D

GrabLove: now as I didn't experience the Ice Age i can have a certain amount of faith in scientific evidence

Mari: What's garbage?

QueenIsis69: *PART* Left room.

Mari: :harumph:

Shadow: didn't make it long. :(

Celeste621: Aw, maybe she'll be back.

Shadow: of course, one reverse-engineers from our existance backwards.

Lisa: OMG

Lisa: back finally

Hoyden: hey sweeties, I'm going to head out, I don't think my worldview is working as an asset to this convo :) I'll talk to you later

Celeste621: wb Lisa

Shadow: one needs to come up with a theory of existence that includes us

Hoyden: *PART* Left room.

Shadow: okay, Hoyden!

Shadow: hey, Lisa

aangellmouse: i sent a message to star after the stay on topic coment that i was asking something on topic and that she shot down my questions simply because i sued the word bible and that that was rood

Lisa: Sorry I got into venting about my job...

aangellmouse: damn hit wrong button sorry

Shadow: can't have a theory of existance that doesn't include us, because then we don't exist

Shadow: and .. *pokes self* well, I think we do

Angelfly3: some have theorized that we don't exist....though I find that hard to wrap my brain around

GrabLove: well we here are locked into passing through time

GrabLove: that illusion is my reality now

Shadow: well, I think it's kinda silly to think we don't .. after all, everything implies we do

Mari: We don't exist? Now that's interesting. LOL

GrabLove: yes you do Angel

GrabLove: D

Shadow: if we don't, we still have to live as though we do, because .. well, how else can we live?

Koi_afk: non cogito ergo non sum

Star: And as I replied, aangelmouse, I don't feel I shot down your questions at all. The discussion of the evolution of the Bible, or lack thereof, was vastly offtopic and I asked for a general return to topic. Problems with my request should be taken up with the Chat Coordinator or Hosts.

Shadow: you don't think, therefore you aren't?

Koi_afk: yep :D

GrabLove: i sometimes wonder who is thinking inside my brain

Koi_afk: and I am more than happy to discuss anything Biblical or Christian-related with anyone who wants to take it to PM

C_Chandler_2: *JOIN* Entered room.

Shadow: hello

C_Chandler_2: how's it going guys.

Celeste621: Hi there, Chandler.

C_Chandler_2: hey celeste

Shadow: er .. can we get back on topic?

Celeste621: lead the way, i'm in over my head at this point. ^^

Lisa: I'm not sure I can 'define' the Divine

Shadow: well, no .. by definition, the Divine is undefinable. :D

Koi_afk: me too celeste :D

Celeste621: Oh good, I don't feel so foolish. You're smart, I feel better. :)

C_Chandler_2: heh... sorry to get you guys off topic again, but anyone know where I can find a good Somafera Forum.

Star: OK, so what about this whole all-gods-are-one thing. Any merit at all? A simplification? Possible Impossible?

echo_8: *PART* Left room.

Lisa: Erm....

Mari: I think it's an oversimplification

Shadow: mmmm .. in my eyes, it's an oversimplification

Mari: simply because I've had WAY too much interaction with too many individual gods

Shadow: sure, it's POSSIBLE .. but it's also possible this is all a headgame, and I'm really an escaped Sim pretending to be human

Celeste621: I think there's a connection between all of them that leads back to a much larger whole. So oversimplification, yes.

Angelfly3: well, I think it's possible, but in my mind it is an oversimplification

Mari: to just see them as simple "aspects" of one whole

Lisa: Well the hard polythesist in me says no but... my training says that cultures all have very similiar types of manifestations so...

Shadow: I think we all seek similar things in life, and therefore, the Divine keeps using similar mechanisms (Gods) to get through to us

Shadow: after all, if it works ..... ;)

Lisa: Personally I think we are the Universe's way of experiencing itself

Mari: parts of a whole, yes

Mari: but all part of teh same "person"/being, etc ... nah.

Lisa: /|\

C_Chandler_2: My idea, everything is based on time and schedules... I think we as humans feel the need to come up with this idea of religion, and gods and goddess, one) so we will fill like there is an end to this somewhere along the way, 2) we just need something to believe in period.

Shadow: no more than all women are one person

Mari: Exactly. It's like giving my mom or one of my brothers the $50 you owe me.

Mari: That doesn't work.

Shadow: exactly.

Shadow: OTOH, I do think there are considerable parallels between various gods

Star: So if they're not all one, is there a great overarching Entity of some sort at all, or is it just the various deities?

Mari: Parallels, yes, but that doesn't mean they're the same being.

Mari: Even twins aren't the same person.

Shadow: I believe the Divine is concious, and is therefore an overarching Entity. But all the other bits and pieces (including us!) are part of that Entity

Celeste621: I read that as evil twins first, oops.

C_Chandler_2: *PART* Left room.

Mari: That would be what we call The Boundless, Star ... but that covers absolutely everything. and nothing.

Shadow: I did, too.

Lisa: Perhaps it's some univseral pool of divinity from which human desire forms specific god-forms

Mari: evil twins LMAO

GrabLove: but twins have remarkable co-incidences with their choice of partner, pets, injuries etc

Mari: yeah, but they're still individuals

Celeste621: Some twins, not all studies have shown that.

Angelfly3: I think some gods may be the same gods, just visiting different cultures, but there is not really a way to know which ones are the same and which are just similar

Star: But they're still not the same person.

Celeste621: The ones that have are remarkable though.

Shadow: I'm not sure if it's the same gods remarkably similar, or if it's different gods that are the sign of the Divine using something that worked before

Mari: Okay, Shadow. That cramped my brain.

Shadow: because we humans affect how gods are perceived, IMO .. something we refuse to perceive can't work with us

Shadow: er?

Shadow: if Gods are the Divine trying to contact us, and one God worked before, why not use the same idea again?

Mari: Okay. Now I'm together. :D

GrabLove: how many here believe there are penalties for leading a bad moral life?

Mari: But that wouldn't mean it was the same exact god, though, right?

Mari: Just the same thought in a different place? Different being?

Kentei: *JOIN* Entered room.

Shadow: right. but they'd be very similar to start with, then drift differently

Shadow: hello

Celeste621: Hi, Kentei.

Mari: My faith is amoral, so I have no opinion, GrabLove.

Shadow: same starting place, different results, I would say, Mari

Mari: Makes sense ... I think.

GrabLove: what does amoral mean?

Mari: nonjudgmental

Kentei: mm

Mari: not having a viewpoint

Mari: sitting on the fence

Angelfly3: same starting one deity visits a different culture and as it becomes perceived differently, breaks off into another deity?

GrabLove: I think you have morals Mari

Shadow: something like. Although I'm not sure if they start off the same Deity, or just the same idea of Deity

Kentei: amoral is lacking morals, is similar to being pragmatic

Mari: Values, probably ...

Kentei: forgive my interruption

Angelfly3: ok, I think I understand

GrabLove: ok

Mari: er, no

Mari: amoral isn't the same as being immoral - two different things

Lisa: My daughter just asked me if her Book of Myths 'were real'

GrabLove: so Mari would you feel any remorse if you killed someone?

Mari: it depends on who that person was LOL

Kentei: Did not say that amoral and immoral were synonyms... immoral is when you act opposite to moral

GrabLove: be serious

Mari: ACTION hides behind shadow

Kentei: then again morals are really a construct of society

Mari: I am being serious.

Kentei: ethics on the other hand are personal

GrabLove: how many people have you killed Mari?

Mari: noen that I know of

GrabLove: why not?

Star: GrabLove, I hope that wasn't a serious accusation.

Mari: But what does this have to do with the topic, actually?

Shadow: should I give up on the topic, or do people want to continue here?

Star: If it was I'm going to have to issue you an official warning.

GrabLove: you don't think its morally wrong to do so

Mari: I'd like to continue, please.

Angelfly3: I'd like to continue

Star: But in any case, it's way off topic, and I'll thank you to stop dragging us off the topic.

Kentei: amoral = Not admitting of moral distinctions or judgments; neither moral nor immoral.

Mari: I thought that's what I said Kentei

Shadow: Do people have any questions relating to the discussion? or comments?

GrabLove: obeys the dictatorship whilst here

Mari: LIke twice.

Star: If this were not a topiced chat it wouldn't be such a big deal, but there is a specific topic for this chat, so we'd like people to stay on it.

Kentei: Mari, forgive.... I'm on Vicodin for severe muscle spasms

Kentei: Yes ma'am. *bows to Star*

aangellmouse: i have a problem with the chat. I had legitamate questions on how the divine is percieved by humans and how religious texts reflect those considerations and views. yet when i asked that star said to get back on topic which i feel i was. I feel that my questions have been particularly ignored and were on topic all i see it doing at the moment is going round robin on one aspect of the chat

GrabLove: the only amoral person by your definition is God

Kentei: What are we considering about the Divine?

Koi_afk: well, angel, in what way to you feel like that relates to the question of the divine?

Shadow: What it is, how we relate, that sort of thing. :)

Kentei: Ah, this pivots on Belief, first and foremost... in my opinion

Star: I have to go now, it's about time for Hubby to get home. A couple of comments first....

Koi_afk: however, Star is a moderator and if you have a problem with her decisions, you must take them up off-board, via e-mail, with the chat coordinator or with the board owners

GrabLove: what is a religious text? Something accepted by more than one person

aangellmouse: well we are discussing how we percieve the divine

Star: First, aanglemouse, if I appeared to be aiming my request for topic at you, I apologize--it was intended to be a GENERAL request, not aimed at anyone in particular.

aangellmouse: the texts we as humans write are supposedly relating to that

Shadow: Everything we do relates, though, doesn't it?

Kentei: So the presupmtion is that the Divine exists as is, and instead is not a construct of humans?

Shadow: unless, of course, one believes the texts truly are Divinely inspired, in which case, it's just our interpretation that changes

Shadow: yes, Kentei. :)

Star: Second, everyone, I should apologize in general. It seems I've been a bit crabby and topic-nazi-ish tonight. I guess it was a longer day than I realized, and I'd like to apologize if that has spilled over into my moderation. I don't think it has *that* much, but I know it has some.

Star: ...And now I'm outta here. See y'all later. I promise to get some sleep. ;)

Celeste621: Sleep well ,Star

Shadow: night, Star!

Star: *PART* Left room.

Kentei: Ah. That clarifies things.

Shadow: sorry. :)

aangellmouse: what i have been asking is do the changes in the various texts over time reflect our changing needs in the divine or our improved or hopefully improved understanding and does that affect the divine itself?

Mari: Kentei, in the viewpoint of my faith, deities are not human constructs.

Celeste621: I'm going to head out too, I want to get a short ritual done tonight before it gets too late. Thanks for the thoughts everyone, I'll have to read this discussion again later.

Kentei: Mari, same for mine.

Celeste621: Nite.

Celeste621: *PART* Left room.

Lisa: I would say.. they likely do angelmouse

Koi_afk: i'm still not sure I understand, angel? could you give me a concrete example?

Koi_afk: i'm slow with theoreticals

Shadow: I think one would have to believe IN sacred texts for that to really make sense to me, Angel

Lisa: evotion of thought perhaps

Kentei: However, there are schools of thought which indicate that deities are in fact constructs of human mid

GrabLove: the Bible was written in times when women were very much second class citizens

GrabLove: man's bigotry is reflected in that Bible

Mari: :scream:

aangellmouse: well each group has it's own texts so picking one really wouldn't make a difference but each one we tend to change little things here and there and interprate them in different manners

Shadow: we do that with everything, sacred or not, though, don't we?

Kentei: GrabLove, you are referring to the Old Testament?

Shadow: I mean, I read the same novel you do .. you get a love story, I get an action-adventure

Koi_afk: oh, I see angel, ok

GrabLove: The Christian and Muslim texts both try to bring women down

GrabLove: why aren't there female leaders of the Church???

aangellmouse: do those changes and interpratations reflect how we see things only or do they affect the divine i am not sure that clarifies it any further

mariazstuff: *JOIN* Entered room.

Koi_afk: oddly, I know a lot of female Christian leaders

Kentei: Religion is a well, you can choose to drink or not. Belief is water, a necessity of life.

GrabLove: does the Divine want men only leaders?

GrabLove: no

GrabLove: brb

Angelfly3: well, if we are part of the Divine, as I believe, then our changes in perspective and what we do with them will change the experiences of the Divine

Shadow: I'm not sure our changing of interpretation changes what the Divine is .. perhaps changes in the Divine change our interpretation, though

Koi_afk: and there are several female leaders in the bible as well, both testaments

Shadow: hello, Maria

Angelfly3: but it will not necessarily change the essence of the Divine

mariazstuff: Hello all

aangellmouse: so the writings of humans should reflect that growing perspective of the divine?

Kentei: the Judeo-christian texts are founded from their society

Shadow: I mean, I can interpret something really WRONG .. that doesn't make the Divine what I think/want it to be

Shadow: which is good, given how some things get interpreted!

Angelfly3: I don't think of it in terms of should, but in terms of would......writing of humans are always going to reflect what they cannot write what you cannot understand and expect it to contain any sense

Lisa: Well I'm going to head off I have to put my daughter to bed. (She's yelling at Pluto for kidnapping Persphone ;)

Koi: well, I think first you have to define whether or not you're talking about a divinely inspired text or what we can call "religious commentary"

Shadow: angel, I don't think it's a case of writing SHOULD change the essence, but that it must

Lisa: *PART* Left room.

Kentei: Examining any text, must be remembered the filter of the writer

Koi: sorry, that was bad grammar, lol

aangellmouse: do you think that if enough people believed a particular view that the divine would create an aspect to mirror that view?

Shadow: when we believe differently, we understand differently and will write differently

aangellmouse: that makes sense

Shadow: I think it might, Angel, if it suited the Divine to reach those people

Kentei: aangelmouse.... I believe that to be true

Koi: because if we returned to the bible example - most christians and jews would say they believe the bible to be divinely inspired and man's understanding of it to be deficient

Koi: so the Bible would hold eternal truths, despite any author bias, and the more proper mirror for looking at changing ideas of the divine would be to look at what people found when they read it

aangellmouse: the reason i am wondering is that many ecclectic pagans pull a bit from many different texts to reflect their particular views my thought is that perhaps the divine would create facets to interface with those persons

Shadow: I do think there are things which don't change .. but I'm not sure what, exactly, those things are

GrabLove: which prophecies came true in the Bible?

Kentei: Koi, it is commonly accepted as being divinely inspired..... however, some of the stories in it are borrowed from elsewhere, and adapted to suit the needs of the writers as valuable lessons for life

aangellmouse: that makes sense

Shadow: well, if the person feels they've been contacted directly by a god, I think it's safe to say the Divine found a way, right? :D

Kentei: much of religion is preparing a way of life

Koi: kentei, I'm not talking about the writers, though

Koi: and I have two degrees in theology, I'm pretty well set on the source theories of the old testament :D

Kentei: very well

Koi: next week we can play ancient myth parallels in chat, lol

Koi: shadow, that'd be a GREAT chat

aangellmouse: well the writings in several pantheons are borrowed from others and altered to suit the needs of that area the greek and romans seemed to have borrowed and altered back and forth

Shadow: heh. good idea, I'll set it up. :D

Kentei: Koi... all have same source..... eventually

Shadow: mmm .. one needs to see, though, just what is being borrowed, and what is being left untouched

Shadow: but I agree, another week

aangellmouse: the only way i can see for both views to be essentially correct is if the divine encompasses all views

Mari: Thatt's true sahdow

Shadow: I don't believe the Divine includes ALL views, actually. I think some things are simply wrong.

Kentei: ah

GrabLove: that statement makes no sense

Shadow: and, when we come right down to it .. reality IS the way it is. sure, we can't know what that is empirically .. but that doesn't change that reality IS.

GrabLove: if God is all that is, then all views are known

aangellmouse: i tend to think there is aplace for even the most appauling simply because without the darker side of things how are we to know when we are seeking the lighter side

GrabLove: unless God doesn't know or chooses not to know something

Koi: but not all views are correct

Kentei: right and wrong are subjective terms

Mari: Simply wrong?

Shadow: I don't agree. I think that those things exist, but should be striven against .. perhaps our view of what is right and wrong will change with the change of our actions

Mari: But if we're all part of the Whole ... then there's really no "right" or "wrong" -- or "good" or "bad"

Kentei: they imply values on things. Values that are inculcated and learned

GrabLove: Kentei, that is the best statement all day

Shadow: there may always be a "right and wrong" debate, but that doesn't mean that all things need to be subject TO that debate

aangellmouse: i think you have expressed that better than i did shadow

Koi: Mari, I'm not sure that necessarily follows

GrabLove: example, it was right to bomb Dresden and kill civilians

GrabLove: from US perspective

GrabLove: from German perspective, ummmmmmm

Mari: It does in my faith.

Shadow: I think that even though we are part of the Divine, we also must make moral choices

Mari: that's why we're amoral.

Kentei: Shadow.... moral choices are also subjective

Mari: If we're part of teh greater whole, then we can't judge anything.

mariazstuff: sometimes there is no right or wrong choice.

GrabLove: and the winner is always right, right?

Mari: because nothing is more or less anything else

Shadow: heh. I'm not. :) If the Divine grows through what I do, I have a responsibility to not do anything I would not want reflected into the Divine

Kentei: Humans have free wills and brains

Koi: yes, but I'm not sure that the logic necessarily HAS to follow

Shadow: it's very Kantian. :D

Koi: thanks

GrabLove: Mari if your child had its throat slit

GrabLove: you wouldn't feel anger

Mari: Of course

GrabLove: anger relates to morals

Kentei: Shadow, that statement about how the Divine grows through are acts, would indicate that there's a give/take relationship

Angelfly3: you can feel anger against something without thinking it is ultimately wrong in the is harmful to the child, and to the family, but not necessarily overall, in the Divine

GrabLove: how can you say you are amoral?

Mari: er, no?

Shadow: I believe there is such a relationship, personally .. nothing exists in isolation.

Shadow: except the Divine, but then, it's inhabited by all of us! :D

mariazstuff: no man is an island

Angelfly3: I thik their may be a relation, but it's so complicated I cannot figure it out.......because what harms one person may help another, or even that person later on

Angelfly3: there

GrabLove: Angelfly3 i agree, God has his own plans, we just get angry we are not let in on them

Kentei: Destiny vs. Free Will.... oh boy

Angelfly3: and there may not be a relation even though it doesn't happen in isolation.....the Divine may simply want to experience, so that it harms one, it could just be for the Divine

Shadow: we have to make the best guess we can'

Shadow: I don't believe that.

Shadow: why would the Divine WANT to feel pain?

GrabLove: to differentiate what pleasure is

Angelfly3: because in my view, the Divine is ALL that is and is not, including pain

Shadow: we have to deal with what we do .. saying "The Divine wanted that" removes responsibility from our shoulders

Angelfly3: it doesn't necessarily want to feel pain, but it is pain

Shadow: heh .. isn't their enough pain without adding to it deliberately?

mariazstuff: we make our own destinies

Koi: *PART* Left room.

mariazstuff: and can change them.

Angelfly3: yes, we have to deal with what we do.......I think the Divine may not necessarily care one way or the other, but the individuals care

GrabLove: i am destined off to the shower, a pleasure to discuss with you

GrabLove: adding you to my favourites

Shadow: g'night!

Angelfly3: and *I* would rather not feel pain, whether or not the Divine does, so I will not inflict pain on others, believing that they probably do not want to feel pain, either

GrabLove: *PART* Left room.

mariazstuff: I don't think the gods have anything to do with that. We were put here to learn

Shadow: heh. I agree, Angel

Angelfly3: unless I must, or should for some other reason

Captain_Koi_-_Arrr_: *JOIN* Entered room.

Shadow: ACTION offers Koi duct tape

Shadow: I think we also need to realize that whether or not the Divine *appears to want something* WE hold the burden for our actions

Koi: thanks

Angelfly3: yes, I agree

Shadow: whether it is good or bad .. what we do reflects outwards, to the Universe .. and inwards, to ourselves

Angelfly3: to a point, I think

aangellmouse: there are several views i need to think about that have been expressed tonight some that i think border and blend with those i had at the start of this and some that may or may not fit me but all of which are good because they will promote personal growth

Shadow: holy cow, it's ten!

Shadow: where did the time go!

Mari: done the tubes

aangellmouse: yup my brain is chewing on concepts at the moment

Mari: down even

aangellmouse: it flew because things were interesting

Shadow: :D I'm glad people had fun

Shadow: but I'm starting to fall asleep, to be honest

mariazstuff: *PART* Left room.

Shadow: so if no one objects, I'd like to wrap this up now, with the offer to continue the discussion on the board, to those who are interested

aangellmouse: i did mainly feel bad because of two spots i didn't hit the blasted whisper button and ment too

Shadow: been there, done that .. have a T-shirt, join the club

aangellmouse: thank you everyone for givine me some new things to ponder

Koi: :)

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