Shadow: What do people think, when they think of creation? Were people first, Gods, what?
Celeste621: I think of an unconscious presences, then a conscious presence (gods maybe?), then people.
Shadow: everyone can say. :)
Shadow: I believe there was a speck that was the Universe, and it became aware .. and in that thought, exploded.
Shadow: and became the Universe
Celeste621: Hm, a speck that contained the universe or was the essence of it...?
Shadow: as in, the Big Bang
Shadow: only also spiritual, becasue it was the thought that caused the explosion .. there was not room for both the thought, and the physical precense
Mari: The Gwyddon creation story is very similar ... but the spark which became aware is identified at Kerridwen the Great
Angelfly3: I think I believe that all that is, ever has been, and ever will be and is not, has never been, and will never be have always.....well, been and not been, it only changes form, so there never was a real "creation"
Shadow: is the creation we percieve as the Big Bang real, or a change, or a misunderstanding, do you think?
Angelfly3: do you believe something caused the awareness or that it just happened?
Celeste621: I'm just not sure how it all got started or if it ever started to begin with. *scratches head* Everything I come up with usually gets shot down later on when I think "no...that doesn't sound right".
Celeste621: Hm, good question, Shadow. I never thought of the Big Bang in those terms.
Mari: In the Gwyddoniad case, Angel, it was spontaneous
Shadow: I believe it happened .. as to why, well, if it hadn't, I wouldn't be here to wonder! :D
Angelfly3: I think of it as a change......there may have been many big bangs, perhaps through the rubberband theory, or perhaps there was something completely different in form that banged into the universe we now know
Shadow: any concept of reality has to include us .. i think that both causes and confuses most creation stories.
Shadow: after all, just because we ARE here to wonder doesn't mean we were inevitable
Celeste621: the rubberband theory?
Angelfly3: the theory that the universe spreads to a certain point and then collapses in on itself, forming a big bang, that then expands out again.....thus this universe is only another in the line
Celeste621: Sorry, I should have Googled for that instead of bother you to type it up. ^^;;
Angelfly3: it's no problem
Celeste621: Ah, thanks. I remember that now, wasn't connecting the name with the concept.
Angelfly3: you're welcome
Mari: am i still here?
Shadow: why do humans exist?
Star: I'm not entirely sure what I think about creation... Which is why I'm so quiet. :D
Shadow: I believe that the Divine wanted to explore, and desired sentient, intelligent minds to do so with .. ones that could think as part of it
Celeste621: I'm not sure myself. I've sort of put it up there with the "I don't know, so I'm not gonna poke at it too much." Not sure if that's a good stance to take, lol, but there it is.
Shadow: heh. well, we ARE here. :D at times, that's plenty for me
Celeste621: Hm, do you believe that we're the only intelligent minds that the Divine created for that purpose?
Celeste621: lol That's good enough for me too usually.
Shadow: I sincerely doubt it, but I've no proof either way, Celeste
Celeste621: Hm, alright.
Shadow: I usually believe there's alien life out there .. but I have no proof of it, and I CERTAINLY don't think they beam people aboard for experimentation!
Angelfly3: hm, I think of the existence of humans mostly as part of the evolutionary process.....we needed to keep what we now call human traits to survive, and that the creator did not specifically want humans, it just happened
Celeste621: What about...entities that don't exist on this plane? Things that weren't ever human.
Shadow: like demons and whatnot?
Celeste621: So, what we became was essentially not really planned out?
Shadow: I believe they exist .. I also think they're some form of misfire.
Celeste621: Yeah, guides, spirits, whatever you believe in.
Mari: Well, I think it's awfully arrogant of folks to think that there *isn't* life somewhere else in the universe. I mean - it IS an awfully BIG universe
Shadow: it's something that humans half-created, and the Divine ...hmm. Powered? became?
Star: Would be an awful waste of space...
Mari: ACTION starts singing .... "it's a great big universe, and we're all really puny, just tiny little specks ...."
Shadow: ACTION gets out a flamethrower
Celeste621: Ain't that the truth. :P
Shadow: but I don't think humanity as what we are was planned for, but something with a brain and a knowledge-of-self was
Shadow: or .. prodded into existence, might be a better way of putting it
Angelfly3: what do you think about the creation of this world in particular? did it just come to be with the rest of creation, left to rule itself, or did particular deities/beings have a hand in shaping it?
Shadow: d'you mean the rock itself or the beings on it?
Mari: ACTION peeps from behind the cat still singing ... "'bout the size of Mickey Rooney! It's big and black and inky, and we're all small and dinky! It's a big universe, and we're not!
Shadow: I think the rock itself spun itself out in the normal way
Angelfly3: well, after the rock, how did it come to be earth as we know it......by itself, or by shaping?
Shadow: as far as the people on it .. I think once they started calling for the Divine to interfere, It did .. as individual gods
Star: ACTION finally recognizes the song and starts screaming
Shadow: no, I think life itself might have been pushed, but it wasn't exactly shaped .. random chance still has a lot to do with it
Shadow: ACTION offers Star her flamethrower
Star: Thanks, Shadow.
Mari: ((I got kicked out of the WB store once for singing that at the top of my lungs along with the TV system)
Mari: How do you feel about plate techtonics, Shadow? The Pangaia theory?
Mari: Pangeia however you spell it
Shadow: um .. it happened?
Shadow: that's what happens when planets ain't stable?
Shadow: I'm not sure I get the question
Mari: we're not stable :D
Shadow: no, you're not
Shadow: ACTION runs
Shadow: I know what it IS, I don't understand what you're ASKING!
Mari: do you feel it's a viable theory or hotwallow?
Shadow: makes sense to me, personally
Shadow: and if it isn't, well, I'm not a geologist! :D
Mari: I think it's intersting. For example, they know now that the African continent is being pulled apart because of this process. It's sparked all sorts of seismic and volcanic (etc etc) activity in the area
Mari: in that area*
Celeste621: Hm, didn't know that.
Shadow: it's a constant process .. I'm just thinking it'll be interesting when the continents slam into each other on the other side!
Shadow: 'course i won't be here to see it, but hey, in a way I'll never die, so ... :D
Mari: Stuff like that fascinates me. Like you said, it's a constant process, so in a way, our planet is still being created.
Shadow: I don't think creation is a one-time thing
Mari: Or in the least, rearranged and remolded.
Shadow: it is a process .. like growth, like spirituality .. it is a process, not something done and forgotten
Shadow: ACTION pokes her microphone
Shadow: is this thing on?
Gyrochaos: *JOIN* Entered room.
Shadow: current topic: Creation myths
Gyrochaos: What does that mean?
Gyrochaos: Did you set a specific topic just so I couldn't go into my own little world again =P
Shadow: stories about how humanity and everything else came into existense
Mari: Growth is a constant in the universe.
Gyrochaos: evolution I guess
Shadow: it's something that amuses me about the evolution/creation debate, actually .. I wonder if the fear is that it'll turn out we're an intermediary step
Gyrochaos: The universe exists because SOMETHING has to
Gyrochaos: because if there was nothing
Gyrochaos: there'd be nobody to know it was nothing
Gyrochaos: and nothing for the nothing to be relevant to to MAKE it nothing
Gyrochaos: let me rephrase that
Angelfly3: I think it's part that and part that we did not have to be as we are.....that we could have *not* been sentient and intelligent but that something else might have been
Shadow: and the monkey thing. :D
Gyrochaos: there's be no SOMETHING for the nothing to be compared to to clairfy it as nothingness
Celeste621: Hm, so we were just the luck of the draw maybe? :D
Gyrochaos: Something HAS to exist
Gyrochaos: so thats why the Universe does
Celeste621: What are your thoughts about how the Divine works into creation?
Gyrochaos: I don't know
Shadow: I believe the Divine IS Creation ... there isn't a separation
Gyrochaos: I think it's like
Gyrochaos: pushing this here and there
Celeste621: I'm not very clear on my own, curious to see waht others think. :)
Gyrochaos: and changing little bits
Gyrochaos: Have you ever read the Science of Discworld?
Celeste621: Hm, so it's not a cause and effect, it's just one big thing?
Shadow: everything that exists is spiritual, physical, or both .. but it's all one *thing*
Celeste621: No, I'm about five pages into the first of that series, sorry.
Shadow: yes, Celeste
Gyrochaos: like when the Bursar twiddles his fingers in the primordial soup
Gyrochaos: I'm not sure
Celeste621: Hm...is that similar to the concept of Brahman?
Shadow: didn't Brahman masturbate the universe into existance?
Gyrochaos: we live in a physical realm
Celeste621: Haven't a clue about that. ^^
Gyrochaos: so spiritual powers are weak here
Shadow: along with Ptah, and a few others, of course. ;)
Gyrochaos: He threw his mickey in apparently
Celeste621: I understood it as everything is the Brahman, so nothing can be seperated from it.
Gyrochaos: there was something like that in Discworld
Celeste621: I was thinking of that when you were saying that creation is part of the Divine, sorry.
Gyrochaos: Masturbation WOULD explain the Milky Way though
Gyrochaos: I'm not sure
Shadow: ahh. I get it, Celeste
Celeste621: I guess that made sense in just my head. :D
Gyrochaos: but anyway
Gyrochaos: we live in a physical realm =P
Gyrochaos: Where spiritual powers are weak
Shadow: it depends .. there are LOTS of Hindu creation myths, and many of them are mutually contradictory
Star: No, Gyro, seriously--there are several such creation myths.
Gyrochaos: but where there is random event, there is also room for choic
Gyrochaos: like free will
Shadow: I don't believe that, Gyro. I don't think one can separate physical and spiritual
Gyrochaos: and I think that when the free will isn't ours
Gyrochaos: it's of the divine
Gyrochaos: then why is everything so mundane?
Celeste621: I think they're distinct, I'm not sure about seperation.
Gyrochaos: why is it so damn boring
Mari: Am having a hard time understanding why spiritual powers would be weak in the physcial realm
Gyrochaos: why don't we walk down the street
Gyrochaos: and see a guy walking past
Gyrochaos: making fireworks with his finger tips
Mari: Because if twe're not here - we're there - so there would be just as physical
Shadow: because reality has to have rules.
Gyrochaos: yes it's DANGEROUS, but theres plenty of dangerous thigns anyway, at least stuff like that would be more fancy
Gyrochaos: and the spiritual plane has its own too
Shadow: whatever the rules are, if they're not constant, then reality has no meaning, and we cannot learn and grow
Shadow: I don't believe in a spiritual plane.
Celeste621: I think a reality without boundaries is possible, just nothing that I could comprehend.
Gyrochaos: the same set of physics kind of exist
Gyrochaos: I think thats what you're getting at
Gyrochaos: the same rules apply everywhere
Celeste621: Well, would be possible if one with rules wasn't created.
Mari: Reality without boundaries?
Gyrochaos: Actually, the rules are the universe AREN'T full cosntant
Gyrochaos: thats where Quantum mechanics come it
Celeste621: *shrugs* I can't comprehend it, but ya never know. :)
Gyrochaos: but anyway
Shadow: aren't constant, or aren't understood?
Gyrochaos: maybe the rules ARE constant
Mari: Er, no.
Gyrochaos: I mean
Mari: I know a bit about quantum mechanics, and you're off. way off.
Shadow: quantum mechanics doesn't change the rules, it explores rules we didn't understand
Celeste621: Maybe not constant in a way that we can't measure right now.
Shadow: just because all of reality is based on probabilities doesn't mean it isn't also real
Gyrochaos: the rate for vibration of atoms has actually changed by 1 40 thousand some tiny unit over the last billion years
Celeste621: can measure, pardon.
Gyrochaos: read the Science of Discworld =p
Shadow: this ISN'T DISCWORLD
Gyrochaos: Quantum Mechanics is pretty much everything we don't understand
Gyrochaos: it isn't discworld
Shadow: read a physics textbook
Gyrochaos: it's a scinece book with every second chapter a sotry
Gyrochaos: I have =P
Gyrochaos: The Universe in a Nutsheel
Shadow: yeah, and my daddy is a physicist .. a nuclear physicist, actually
Mari: The Discworld universe in a nutshell, not OUR universe
Gyrochaos: I'm serious, read the science of discworld
Gyrochaos: stephen hawking?
Gyrochaos: ring any proverbial bells?
Shadow: Read it
Shadow: what's your point?
Gyrochaos: just Maris comment
Mari: my husband and I just read Hawkings book, actually
Shadow: trying to prove that everything we don't understand is quantum mechanics is bull
Gyrochaos: see people always argue with these kind of topics =P
Shadow: and we're OFF-topic
Shadow: Creation stories
Gyrochaos: I was GETTING to creation stories
Gyrochaos: but we've spent the last couple of pages of you telling me a book I've read is something different to waht it actually is
Gyrochaos: so anyway
Gyrochaos: Planck era =P
Gyrochaos: Rules were exotic then
Shadow: I think we tend to reverse-engineer creation stories
Gyrochaos: Planck era
Gyrochaos: is like the earliest era of the universe
Shadow: we start with humanity, because we have to be there to write the story, and go backwards .. taking our existance as a given
Gyrochaos: I think that it was all randomness then
Mari: But the book you're talking about is about a FICTIONAL universe
Mari: it's not real
Gyrochaos: it's not about Discworld
Gyrochaos: it's about our world
Mari: you were talking about discworld before
Gyrochaos: Like I said, every second chapter is a Discworld story
Shadow: IRRELEVANT, people, please?
Gyrochaos: every FIRST chapter is about real science
Gyrochaos: I know it doesn't make sense
Gyrochaos: but it's true
Celeste621: You're just getting tidbits of the whole concept though.
Mari: It's still fiction
Gyrochaos: No, theres a lot of stuff in it better than most textbooks
Mari: but it's FICTION
Gyrochaos: in what way?
Shadow: but when we take our existance as a given, we miss the fact that it wasn't necessarily given ahead of time
Shadow: MARI! I said STOP
Gyrochaos: it's written by 2 scienetists
Mari: i'm going to go before i strangle something
Mari: *PART* Left room.
Star: OK, guys, hang on.
Star: Here's the book.
Star: *SHOWURL* http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0091886570/thecauldron
Gyrochaos: note HArd science is as good as the ficton =P
Gyrochaos: get that to Mari =P
Shadow: Gyro, you stop it to
Celeste621: Let's be mature about this.
Shadow: I would LIKE to be able to stay ON topic, plase
Gyrochaos: Planck era then
Gyrochaos: I think that because there is only ONE object
Gyrochaos: there is only ONE physical possiblity
Gyrochaos: once Chaos was introduced
Gyrochaos: there was a hell of a lot more
Shadow: none of that makes sense
Gyrochaos: so the singularity split up
Gyrochaos: into the universe
Gyrochaos: yes it does
Gyrochaos: think about it
Gyrochaos: 1 times 1 is still 1
Shadow: chaos isn't external
Gyrochaos: there can be no true randomness if there's one possiblity
Gyrochaos: randomness had the POTENTIAL to exist
Shadow: everything that exists is built on possiblity-fragments .. there is no definite
Gyrochaos: I believe that during Planck era
Gyrochaos: the rules could have been different
Gyrochaos: and what happened then is what defined our universe today
Gyrochaos: And I think during Planck era, when rules were more random, is when the Divine intervened
Gyrochaos: but there was still a certain amount of more obvious cause and effect
Gyrochaos: like make this round
Gyrochaos: and you'll get a whole loud of spiral galaxies
Gyrochaos: and stuff like that
Shadow: so Celeste, where do you think the Universe came from?
Celeste621: I.....I.....I don't know. lol The jury is still out.
Celeste621: I am going to demand some answers when I kick the bucket though.
Shadow: heh. do you think there ARE answers, then? ;)
Celeste621: After this evening, I think I eventually deserve to know how it all went down.
Star: Jury's still out for me too...
Angelfly3: do you (general you) believe there is more than one universe, and if there is, is it the same divinity/creator/whatever, or different?
Celeste621: I...oh my. lol Gotta make this hard.
Celeste621: I think there are answers.
Star: Hmmm. Interesting.
Shadow: I've no idea, Angel!
Gyrochaos: I believe that any universe anyone dreams up exsts in some way
Star: I think that more than one possibility is definitely possible
Shadow: I personally don't think there are other universes .. (gods, that phrase hurts) but that doesn't mean there aren't ....
Shadow: but if there are others, it's a different *entity* entirely
Celeste621: I can't even deal with how this universe works and I have to think about other ones now? heh.
Gyrochaos: you mean
Star: Bu I don't know for sure whether they exist
Gyrochaos: like different gods?
Celeste621: The concept of other universes is interesting.
Gyrochaos: if there's a million of me
Gyrochaos: does anyone have any real meaning?
Celeste621: Like...alternate universes? Or am I on the wrong page?
Shadow: I don't think that all possibilities exist
Gyrochaos: I don't either
Gyrochaos: I think they POTENTIALLY exist
Angelfly3: well, like other universes just separated from their own, or alternate universes as popularized in science fiction, or any other way you can imagine them
Gyrochaos: but not in reality
Angelfly3: our own, not their own
Shadow: just because we can dream it, doesn't mean it's real .. I think there are other inhabited planets in THIS universe, but not other universes
Celeste621: I think there's potential for a lot of things, but most aren't probable.
Gyrochaos: XD @ Futurama
Gyrochaos: Fry: You mean there's an infinite number of alternate universes?
Gyrochaos: Prof: No, just the two
Celeste621: Hm....I'll have to think on that, Angelfly.
Gyrochaos: thats not what I meant shadow
Gyrochaos: it's very complicated
Gyrochaos: and I don't really think I could explain
Gyrochaos: ACTION can't stop playing "Battery" and "Crazy Train" repeatedly on his guitar
Shadow: But if there are other universes, they're probably totally separate .. unless of course, this universe can talk to that one
Shadow: in which case, I've no idea what they talk about
Gyrochaos: what do you mean by totally seperate?
Celeste621: That we don't have access is what I interpreted that as.
Star: *Can* this universe talk to that one, though?
Shadow: totally separate : not being connected in any way
Shadow: well, I don't believe in multiples, so there aren't any to talk to. ;)
Gyrochaos: I still think that there should be "access"
Star: Well, OK, good point.
Gyrochaos: I believe there is a Finite number
Shadow: but if the Divine IS the Universe, then there can't be sharing of, say, Gods, between them
Star: Sorry, I'm not all here today, and losing track of who's said what a little bit.
Gyrochaos: that's your beliefs though, other people may believe different
Celeste621: I was wondering about how the gods would go between them if they're completely seperate.
Shadow: I think it would depend on whether the Gods are part of, or separate from, the Universe
Shadow: if they're part of, I don't think they could go back and forth
Star: That's a good question, Shadow
Shadow: if they're separate, what created them? ;)
Star: Also a good question.
Angelfly3: in my view, if the divinity is all, then it would be the same Divinity/Creator in other universes, if they exist, and between universes.....but the gods would be different
Celeste621: so, would it be logical to say that if they're seperate, then the gods/Divine here had no part in the creation of other universes?
Shadow: so the Divine is separate from the Universe, in your view, Angelfly?
Shadow: that's what I would think, Celeste
Angelfly3: not separate from, but the universe is part of the Divine, not the whole
Celeste621: That makes more sense, ok.
Gyrochaos: what do you define as divine?
Celeste621: Or...does it? I'm going to short circuit something before the evening ends.
Shadow: ah, I short circuit every topic-evening, that's half the fun. :D
Angelfly3: gyro....I define Divine as all that is, ever has been, ever will be, is not, has never been, and never will be
Gyrochaos: ACTION has finished watching Sonic X, which is all about alternate universes
Star: It maks sense to me, which probably means it doesn't make much sense at all unless you just happen to have your synapses fall into place just the wrong way.
Gyrochaos: everything in other words
Celeste621: I interpret the Divine is the conscious and unconscious presence that permeates everything in this universe.
Star: (No insult intended, of course.)
Gyrochaos: I've always wanted to ask
Gyrochaos: what does mean?
Angelfly3: everything and nothing
Star: (Except possibly to myself.)
Shadow: I believe the Divine is the Universe. no separation
Gyrochaos: I'm afraid to say what I believe in anymore =P
Gyrochaos: I'll just get given out to
Shadow: if they're the same thing, obviously anything OUTSIDE the Universe would have a different Creative Force
Angelfly3: yes, that makes sense
Celeste621: What do you think is outside of the universe?
Gyrochaos: Fluidic space =P
Shadow: or, for all I know, the waters of heaven. but I doubt it
Shadow: I don't think there are words or concepts for "outside" creation
Gyrochaos: I think that
Star: There's an outside the universe? :)
Celeste621: Hm. I think there's nothing outside of the universe as well. If the universe is reality- what is-, then anything beyond the universe should be -what is not- nothing.
Gyrochaos: there is an afterlife *shock horror*
Gyrochaos: in a place
Gyrochaos: outside of this universe
Gyrochaos: Universe literaly means everything I suppose
Celeste621: That could just be my damn philosophy professor taking over my brain though. >.<
Gyrochaos: but I guess you could have a nother set of everythings
Gyrochaos: the Universe is everything you can possibly percieve using normal methods
Celeste621: Wouldn't another set be part of the concept of "everything" though?
Shadow: ooh, philosophy prof! :D
Gyrochaos: It depends
Celeste621: Oy, I hate the class with a passion.
Gyrochaos: if we can't ever get to that everything
Gyrochaos: its not real to us
Shadow: I loved philosophy. would've picked up a third major, had I the time
Gyrochaos: of course, there's always a loophole but =P
Celeste621: Yes, half of the students are hardcore bible literalists. You can imagine what direction our debates always go in and get stuck in.
Shadow: oh my goodness!
Shadow: that would change my impressions, yes
Gyrochaos: doubt if it's any worse than Shadow arguing with me =P
Celeste621: I sit up front so nobody can see me reflexively roll my eyes. ~~
Shadow: I find the idea that we can completely comprehend reality and the Divine rather offensive anyway ....
Celeste621: Ya gotta be there, it's an interesting hour.
Shadow: oh, I'll bet
Angelfly3: and terrifying
Celeste621: I just find the idea silly. Too big.
Angelfly3: if we could
Gyrochaos: not that we can
Gyrochaos: but like
Gyrochaos: you could see that group of atoms
Shadow: well, we can't comprehend ourselves completely. why should we comprehend something bigger?
Gyrochaos: I mean
Gyrochaos: we can't comprehend it
Gyrochaos: but like
Shadow: methinks we're on last week's chat again
Gyrochaos: in one possible life
Celeste621: Exactly, Shadow.
Gyrochaos: we comprehend the most of a town
Gyrochaos: I reallymean just "see"
Gyrochaos: or be able to interact with
Shadow: I think we've done this topic to death, unfortunately
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