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This is the log of The Cauldron's September 30, 2003 chat, which was a discussion of Creation: why we're here, how we got here, and where we're going from various Pagan perspectives. This log may have been edited to remove extraneous comments.

Shadow: What do people think, when they think of creation? Were people first, Gods, what?

Celeste621: I think of an unconscious presences, then a conscious presence (gods maybe?), then people.

Shadow: everyone can say. :)

Shadow: I believe there was a speck that was the Universe, and it became aware .. and in that thought, exploded.

Shadow: and became the Universe

Celeste621: Hm, a speck that contained the universe or was the essence of it...?

Shadow: as in, the Big Bang

Celeste621: Ok.

Shadow: only also spiritual, becasue it was the thought that caused the explosion .. there was not room for both the thought, and the physical precense

Mari: The Gwyddon creation story is very similar ... but the spark which became aware is identified at Kerridwen the Great

Angelfly3: I think I believe that all that is, ever has been, and ever will be and is not, has never been, and will never be have always.....well, been and not been, it only changes form, so there never was a real "creation"

Shadow: is the creation we percieve as the Big Bang real, or a change, or a misunderstanding, do you think?

Angelfly3: do you believe something caused the awareness or that it just happened?

Celeste621: I'm just not sure how it all got started or if it ever started to begin with. *scratches head* Everything I come up with usually gets shot down later on when I think "no...that doesn't sound right".

Celeste621: Hm, good question, Shadow. I never thought of the Big Bang in those terms.

Mari: In the Gwyddoniad case, Angel, it was spontaneous

Shadow: I believe it happened .. as to why, well, if it hadn't, I wouldn't be here to wonder! :D

Angelfly3: I think of it as a change......there may have been many big bangs, perhaps through the rubberband theory, or perhaps there was something completely different in form that banged into the universe we now know

Shadow: any concept of reality has to include us .. i think that both causes and confuses most creation stories.

Shadow: after all, just because we ARE here to wonder doesn't mean we were inevitable

Celeste621: the rubberband theory?

Angelfly3: the theory that the universe spreads to a certain point and then collapses in on itself, forming a big bang, that then expands out again.....thus this universe is only another in the line

Celeste621: Sorry, I should have Googled for that instead of bother you to type it up. ^^;;

Angelfly3: it's no problem

Celeste621: Ah, thanks. I remember that now, wasn't connecting the name with the concept.

Angelfly3: you're welcome

Mari: am i still here?

Shadow: nope

Shadow: why do humans exist?

Star: I'm not entirely sure what I think about creation... Which is why I'm so quiet. :D

Shadow: I believe that the Divine wanted to explore, and desired sentient, intelligent minds to do so with .. ones that could think as part of it

Celeste621: I'm not sure myself. I've sort of put it up there with the "I don't know, so I'm not gonna poke at it too much." Not sure if that's a good stance to take, lol, but there it is.

Shadow: heh. well, we ARE here. :D at times, that's plenty for me

Celeste621: Hm, do you believe that we're the only intelligent minds that the Divine created for that purpose?

Celeste621: lol That's good enough for me too usually.

Shadow: I sincerely doubt it, but I've no proof either way, Celeste

Celeste621: Hm, alright.

Shadow: I usually believe there's alien life out there .. but I have no proof of it, and I CERTAINLY don't think they beam people aboard for experimentation!

Angelfly3: hm, I think of the existence of humans mostly as part of the evolutionary process.....we needed to keep what we now call human traits to survive, and that the creator did not specifically want humans, it just happened

Celeste621: What about...entities that don't exist on this plane? Things that weren't ever human.

Shadow: like demons and whatnot?

Celeste621: So, what we became was essentially not really planned out?

Shadow: I believe they exist .. I also think they're some form of misfire.

Celeste621: Yeah, guides, spirits, whatever you believe in.

Angelfly3: yes

Celeste621: Misfire?

Mari: Well, I think it's awfully arrogant of folks to think that there *isn't* life somewhere else in the universe. I mean - it IS an awfully BIG universe

Shadow: it's something that humans half-created, and the Divine ...hmm. Powered? became?

Star: Would be an awful waste of space...

Celeste621: Hm...

Mari: ACTION starts singing .... "it's a great big universe, and we're all really puny, just tiny little specks ...."

Shadow: ACTION gets out a flamethrower

Celeste621: Ain't that the truth. :P

Shadow: but I don't think humanity as what we are was planned for, but something with a brain and a knowledge-of-self was

Shadow: or .. prodded into existence, might be a better way of putting it

Angelfly3: what do you think about the creation of this world in particular? did it just come to be with the rest of creation, left to rule itself, or did particular deities/beings have a hand in shaping it?

Shadow: d'you mean the rock itself or the beings on it?

Mari: ACTION peeps from behind the cat still singing ... "'bout the size of Mickey Rooney! It's big and black and inky, and we're all small and dinky! It's a big universe, and we're not!

Shadow: I think the rock itself spun itself out in the normal way

Angelfly3: well, after the rock, how did it come to be earth as we know itself, or by shaping?

Shadow: as far as the people on it .. I think once they started calling for the Divine to interfere, It did .. as individual gods

Mari: :D

Star: ACTION finally recognizes the song and starts screaming

Shadow: no, I think life itself might have been pushed, but it wasn't exactly shaped .. random chance still has a lot to do with it

Shadow: ACTION offers Star her flamethrower

Star: Thanks, Shadow.

Mari: ((I got kicked out of the WB store once for singing that at the top of my lungs along with the TV system)

Mari: How do you feel about plate techtonics, Shadow? The Pangaia theory?

Mari: Pangeia however you spell it

Shadow: um .. it happened?

Shadow: that's what happens when planets ain't stable?

Shadow: I'm not sure I get the question

Mari: we're not stable :D

Shadow: no, you're not

Shadow: ACTION runs


Shadow: I know what it IS, I don't understand what you're ASKING!

Mari: do you feel it's a viable theory or hotwallow?

Mari: hogwallow

Shadow: makes sense to me, personally

Shadow: and if it isn't, well, I'm not a geologist! :D

Mari: :}

Mari: I think it's intersting. For example, they know now that the African continent is being pulled apart because of this process. It's sparked all sorts of seismic and volcanic (etc etc) activity in the area

Mari: in that area*

Celeste621: Hm, didn't know that.

Shadow: it's a constant process .. I'm just thinking it'll be interesting when the continents slam into each other on the other side!

Shadow: 'course i won't be here to see it, but hey, in a way I'll never die, so ... :D

Mari: heh

Mari: Stuff like that fascinates me. Like you said, it's a constant process, so in a way, our planet is still being created.

Shadow: I don't think creation is a one-time thing

Mari: Or in the least, rearranged and remolded.

Shadow: it is a process .. like growth, like spirituality .. it is a process, not something done and forgotten

Shadow: ACTION pokes her microphone

Shadow: is this thing on?

Star: nope

Gyrochaos: *JOIN* Entered room.

Gyrochaos: Ummm...

Gyrochaos: Hello?

Shadow: hello

Angelfly3: hello

Shadow: current topic: Creation myths

Gyrochaos: Hi

Gyrochaos: K

Gyrochaos: What does that mean?

Gyrochaos: Did you set a specific topic just so I couldn't go into my own little world again =P

Shadow: stories about how humanity and everything else came into existense

Gyrochaos: hmm

Mari: Growth is a constant in the universe.

Gyrochaos: evolution I guess

Shadow: it's something that amuses me about the evolution/creation debate, actually .. I wonder if the fear is that it'll turn out we're an intermediary step

Gyrochaos: The universe exists because SOMETHING has to

Gyrochaos: because if there was nothing

Gyrochaos: there'd be nobody to know it was nothing

Gyrochaos: and nothing for the nothing to be relevant to to MAKE it nothing

Gyrochaos: um

Gyrochaos: let me rephrase that

Angelfly3: I think it's part that and part that we did not have to be as we are.....that we could have *not* been sentient and intelligent but that something else might have been

Shadow: and the monkey thing. :D

Gyrochaos: there's be no SOMETHING for the nothing to be compared to to clairfy it as nothingness

Celeste621: Hm, so we were just the luck of the draw maybe? :D

Angelfly3: right

Gyrochaos: Something HAS to exist

Gyrochaos: so thats why the Universe does

Celeste621: What are your thoughts about how the Divine works into creation?

Gyrochaos: mine?

Celeste621: Sure.

Gyrochaos: hmm

Gyrochaos: I don't know

Shadow: I believe the Divine IS Creation ... there isn't a separation

Gyrochaos: I think it's like

Gyrochaos: pushing this here and there

Celeste621: I'm not very clear on my own, curious to see waht others think. :)

Gyrochaos: and changing little bits

Gyrochaos: Have you ever read the Science of Discworld?

Celeste621: Hm, so it's not a cause and effect, it's just one big thing?

Shadow: everything that exists is spiritual, physical, or both .. but it's all one *thing*

Celeste621: No, I'm about five pages into the first of that series, sorry.

Shadow: yes, Celeste

Gyrochaos: like when the Bursar twiddles his fingers in the primordial soup

Gyrochaos: I'm not sure

Celeste621: that similar to the concept of Brahman?

Gyrochaos: possibly

Shadow: didn't Brahman masturbate the universe into existance?

Gyrochaos: we live in a physical realm

Celeste621: Haven't a clue about that. ^^

Gyrochaos: so spiritual powers are weak here

Shadow: along with Ptah, and a few others, of course. ;)

Gyrochaos: HAHAH

Gyrochaos: He threw his mickey in apparently

Celeste621: I understood it as everything is the Brahman, so nothing can be seperated from it.

Gyrochaos: there was something like that in Discworld

Celeste621: I was thinking of that when you were saying that creation is part of the Divine, sorry.

Gyrochaos: Masturbation WOULD explain the Milky Way though

Gyrochaos: *stomped*

Gyrochaos: I'm not sure

Shadow: ahh. I get it, Celeste

Celeste621: I guess that made sense in just my head. :D

Gyrochaos: but anyway

Gyrochaos: we live in a physical realm =P

Gyrochaos: Where spiritual powers are weak

Shadow: it depends .. there are LOTS of Hindu creation myths, and many of them are mutually contradictory

Star: No, Gyro, seriously--there are several such creation myths.

Gyrochaos: but where there is random event, there is also room for choic

Gyrochaos: e

Gyrochaos: like free will

Shadow: I don't believe that, Gyro. I don't think one can separate physical and spiritual

Gyrochaos: and I think that when the free will isn't ours

Gyrochaos: it's of the divine

Gyrochaos: then why is everything so mundane?

Celeste621: I think they're distinct, I'm not sure about seperation.

Gyrochaos: why is it so damn boring

Mari: Am having a hard time understanding why spiritual powers would be weak in the physcial realm

Gyrochaos: why don't we walk down the street

Gyrochaos: and see a guy walking past

Gyrochaos: making fireworks with his finger tips

Mari: Because if twe're not here - we're there - so there would be just as physical

Mari: imho

Mari: :shrugs:

Shadow: because reality has to have rules.

Gyrochaos: yes it's DANGEROUS, but theres plenty of dangerous thigns anyway, at least stuff like that would be more fancy

Gyrochaos: yeah

Gyrochaos: and the spiritual plane has its own too

Shadow: whatever the rules are, if they're not constant, then reality has no meaning, and we cannot learn and grow

Shadow: I don't believe in a spiritual plane.

Gyrochaos: no

Celeste621: I think a reality without boundaries is possible, just nothing that I could comprehend.

Gyrochaos: the same set of physics kind of exist

Gyrochaos: I think thats what you're getting at

Gyrochaos: the same rules apply everywhere

Celeste621: Well, would be possible if one with rules wasn't created.

Gyrochaos: but

Mari: Reality without boundaries?

Mari: :baffles:

Gyrochaos: Actually, the rules are the universe AREN'T full cosntant

Gyrochaos: thats where Quantum mechanics come it

Celeste621: *shrugs* I can't comprehend it, but ya never know. :)

Gyrochaos: *in

Gyrochaos: but anyway

Shadow: aren't constant, or aren't understood?

Gyrochaos: maybe the rules ARE constant

Mari: Er, no.

Gyrochaos: I mean

Gyrochaos: like

Mari: I know a bit about quantum mechanics, and you're off. way off.

Shadow: quantum mechanics doesn't change the rules, it explores rules we didn't understand

Celeste621: Maybe not constant in a way that we can't measure right now.

Shadow: just because all of reality is based on probabilities doesn't mean it isn't also real

Gyrochaos: the rate for vibration of atoms has actually changed by 1 40 thousand some tiny unit over the last billion years

Celeste621: can measure, pardon.

Gyrochaos: read the Science of Discworld =p

Gyrochaos: yeah

Shadow: this ISN'T DISCWORLD

Gyrochaos: Quantum Mechanics is pretty much everything we don't understand

Gyrochaos: it isn't discworld


Shadow: read a physics textbook

Gyrochaos: it's a scinece book with every second chapter a sotry

Gyrochaos: I have =P

Gyrochaos: The Universe in a Nutsheel

Shadow: yeah, and my daddy is a physicist .. a nuclear physicist, actually

Mari: The Discworld universe in a nutshell, not OUR universe

Gyrochaos: I'm serious, read the science of discworld

Gyrochaos: umm

Gyrochaos: stephen hawking?

Gyrochaos: ring any proverbial bells?

Shadow: Read it

Shadow: what's your point?

Gyrochaos: yeah

Gyrochaos: just Maris comment

Mari: my husband and I just read Hawkings book, actually

Shadow: trying to prove that everything we don't understand is quantum mechanics is bull

Gyrochaos: see people always argue with these kind of topics =P

Shadow: and we're OFF-topic

Shadow: Creation stories

Gyrochaos: no

Gyrochaos: I was GETTING to creation stories

Gyrochaos: but we've spent the last couple of pages of you telling me a book I've read is something different to waht it actually is

Gyrochaos: so anyway

Gyrochaos: Planck era =P

Gyrochaos: Rules were exotic then

Shadow: I think we tend to reverse-engineer creation stories

Gyrochaos: Planck era

Gyrochaos: is like the earliest era of the universe

Shadow: we start with humanity, because we have to be there to write the story, and go backwards .. taking our existance as a given

Gyrochaos: I think that it was all randomness then

Mari: But the book you're talking about is about a FICTIONAL universe

Mari: it's not real

Gyrochaos: it's not about Discworld

Gyrochaos: it's about our world

Mari: you were talking about discworld before

Gyrochaos: Like I said, every second chapter is a Discworld story

Shadow: IRRELEVANT, people, please?

Gyrochaos: every FIRST chapter is about real science

Gyrochaos: I know it doesn't make sense

Gyrochaos: but it's true

Celeste621: You're just getting tidbits of the whole concept though.

Mari: It's still fiction

Gyrochaos: No, theres a lot of stuff in it better than most textbooks

Mari: but it's FICTION

Mari: FAKE

Gyrochaos: in what way?

Shadow: but when we take our existance as a given, we miss the fact that it wasn't necessarily given ahead of time

Shadow: MARI! I said STOP

Shadow: please

Gyrochaos: dammit

Gyrochaos: look

Gyrochaos: it's written by 2 scienetists

Mari: i'm going to go before i strangle something

Mari: *PART* Left room.

Star: OK, guys, hang on.

Gyrochaos: *sigh*

Star: Here's the book.


Celeste621: Alright.

Gyrochaos: yep

Gyrochaos: note HArd science is as good as the ficton =P

Gyrochaos: get that to Mari =P

Shadow: Gyro, you stop it to

Gyrochaos: =(

Celeste621: Let's be mature about this.

Shadow: I would LIKE to be able to stay ON topic, plase

Shadow: please

Gyrochaos: Planck era then

Gyrochaos: I think that because there is only ONE object

Gyrochaos: there is only ONE physical possiblity

Gyrochaos: once Chaos was introduced

Gyrochaos: there was a hell of a lot more

Shadow: none of that makes sense

Gyrochaos: so the singularity split up

Gyrochaos: into the universe

Gyrochaos: yes it does

Gyrochaos: think about it

Gyrochaos: 1 times 1 is still 1

Shadow: chaos isn't external

Gyrochaos: but

Gyrochaos: there can be no true randomness if there's one possiblity

Gyrochaos: randomness had the POTENTIAL to exist

Shadow: everything that exists is built on possiblity-fragments .. there is no definite

Gyrochaos: I believe that during Planck era

Gyrochaos: the rules could have been different

Gyrochaos: and what happened then is what defined our universe today

Gyrochaos: And I think during Planck era, when rules were more random, is when the Divine intervened

Gyrochaos: but there was still a certain amount of more obvious cause and effect

Gyrochaos: like make this round

Gyrochaos: and you'll get a whole loud of spiral galaxies

Gyrochaos: and stuff like that

Shadow: so Celeste, where do you think the Universe came from?

Celeste621: I.....I.....I don't know. lol The jury is still out.

Shadow: :D

Celeste621: I am going to demand some answers when I kick the bucket though.

Shadow: heh. do you think there ARE answers, then? ;)

Celeste621: After this evening, I think I eventually deserve to know how it all went down.

Star: Jury's still out for me too...

Angelfly3: do you (general you) believe there is more than one universe, and if there is, is it the same divinity/creator/whatever, or different?

Celeste621: I...oh my. lol Gotta make this hard.

Celeste621: Yes.

Celeste621: I think there are answers.

Star: Hmmm. Interesting.

Shadow: I've no idea, Angel!

Gyrochaos: I believe that any universe anyone dreams up exsts in some way

Star: I think that more than one possibility is definitely possible

Shadow: I personally don't think there are other universes .. (gods, that phrase hurts) but that doesn't mean there aren't ....

Shadow: but if there are others, it's a different *entity* entirely

Celeste621: I can't even deal with how this universe works and I have to think about other ones now? heh.

Gyrochaos: you mean

Star: Bu I don't know for sure whether they exist

Gyrochaos: like different gods?

Celeste621: The concept of other universes is interesting.

Gyrochaos: because

Gyrochaos: if there's a million of me

Gyrochaos: does anyone have any real meaning?

Celeste621: Like...alternate universes? Or am I on the wrong page?

Shadow: I don't think that all possibilities exist

Gyrochaos: no

Gyrochaos: I don't either

Gyrochaos: I think they POTENTIALLY exist

Angelfly3: well, like other universes just separated from their own, or alternate universes as popularized in science fiction, or any other way you can imagine them

Gyrochaos: but not in reality

Angelfly3: our own, not their own

Shadow: just because we can dream it, doesn't mean it's real .. I think there are other inhabited planets in THIS universe, but not other universes

Celeste621: I think there's potential for a lot of things, but most aren't probable.

Gyrochaos: XD @ Futurama

Gyrochaos: Fry: You mean there's an infinite number of alternate universes?

Gyrochaos: Prof: No, just the two

Gyrochaos: XD

Celeste621: Hm....I'll have to think on that, Angelfly.

Gyrochaos: no

Gyrochaos: thats not what I meant shadow

Gyrochaos: it's very complicated

Gyrochaos: and I don't really think I could explain

Gyrochaos: ACTION can't stop playing "Battery" and "Crazy Train" repeatedly on his guitar

Shadow: But if there are other universes, they're probably totally separate .. unless of course, this universe can talk to that one

Gyrochaos: =P

Shadow: in which case, I've no idea what they talk about

Gyrochaos: hmm

Gyrochaos: what do you mean by totally seperate?

Celeste621: That we don't have access is what I interpreted that as.

Star: *Can* this universe talk to that one, though?

Shadow: totally separate : not being connected in any way

Gyrochaos: hmm

Shadow: well, I don't believe in multiples, so there aren't any to talk to. ;)

Gyrochaos: I still think that there should be "access"

Star: Well, OK, good point.

Gyrochaos: I believe there is a Finite number

Shadow: but if the Divine IS the Universe, then there can't be sharing of, say, Gods, between them

Star: Sorry, I'm not all here today, and losing track of who's said what a little bit.

Gyrochaos: that's your beliefs though, other people may believe different

Celeste621: I was wondering about how the gods would go between them if they're completely seperate.

Shadow: I think it would depend on whether the Gods are part of, or separate from, the Universe

Celeste621: Hm...

Shadow: if they're part of, I don't think they could go back and forth

Star: That's a good question, Shadow

Shadow: if they're separate, what created them? ;)

Star: Also a good question.

Angelfly3: in my view, if the divinity is all, then it would be the same Divinity/Creator in other universes, if they exist, and between universes.....but the gods would be different

Celeste621: so, would it be logical to say that if they're seperate, then the gods/Divine here had no part in the creation of other universes?

Shadow: so the Divine is separate from the Universe, in your view, Angelfly?

Shadow: that's what I would think, Celeste

Angelfly3: not separate from, but the universe is part of the Divine, not the whole

Shadow: ahhh

Celeste621: That makes more sense, ok.

Gyrochaos: what do you define as divine?

Celeste621: Or...does it? I'm going to short circuit something before the evening ends.

Shadow: ah, I short circuit every topic-evening, that's half the fun. :D

Celeste621: lol

Angelfly3: gyro....I define Divine as all that is, ever has been, ever will be, is not, has never been, and never will be

Gyrochaos: ACTION has finished watching Sonic X, which is all about alternate universes

Star: It maks sense to me, which probably means it doesn't make much sense at all unless you just happen to have your synapses fall into place just the wrong way.

Gyrochaos: everything in other words

Celeste621: I interpret the Divine is the conscious and unconscious presence that permeates everything in this universe.

Star: (No insult intended, of course.)

Gyrochaos: I've always wanted to ask

Gyrochaos: what does mean?

Angelfly3: everything and nothing

Star: (Except possibly to myself.)

Shadow: I believe the Divine is the Universe. no separation

Gyrochaos: I'm afraid to say what I believe in anymore =P

Gyrochaos: I'll just get given out to

Shadow: if they're the same thing, obviously anything OUTSIDE the Universe would have a different Creative Force

Angelfly3: yes, that makes sense

Celeste621: What do you think is outside of the universe?

Gyrochaos: Fluidic space =P

Shadow: nothing

Shadow: or, for all I know, the waters of heaven. but I doubt it

Shadow: I don't think there are words or concepts for "outside" creation

Gyrochaos: I think that

Star: There's an outside the universe? :)

Celeste621: Hm. I think there's nothing outside of the universe as well. If the universe is reality- what is-, then anything beyond the universe should be -what is not- nothing.

Gyrochaos: there is an afterlife *shock horror*

Gyrochaos: in a place

Gyrochaos: outside of this universe

Gyrochaos: Universe literaly means everything I suppose

Celeste621: That could just be my damn philosophy professor taking over my brain though. >.<

Gyrochaos: but I guess you could have a nother set of everythings

Gyrochaos: the Universe is everything you can possibly percieve using normal methods

Celeste621: Wouldn't another set be part of the concept of "everything" though?

Shadow: ooh, philosophy prof! :D

Gyrochaos: It depends

Gyrochaos: because

Celeste621: Oy, I hate the class with a passion.

Shadow: really?

Gyrochaos: if we can't ever get to that everything

Gyrochaos: its not real to us

Shadow: I loved philosophy. would've picked up a third major, had I the time

Gyrochaos: of course, there's always a loophole but =P

Celeste621: Yes, half of the students are hardcore bible literalists. You can imagine what direction our debates always go in and get stuck in.

Shadow: oh my goodness!

Shadow: that would change my impressions, yes

Gyrochaos: doubt if it's any worse than Shadow arguing with me =P

Celeste621: I sit up front so nobody can see me reflexively roll my eyes. ~~

Shadow: I find the idea that we can completely comprehend reality and the Divine rather offensive anyway ....

Celeste621: Ya gotta be there, it's an interesting hour.

Shadow: oh, I'll bet

Gyrochaos: comprehend

Angelfly3: and terrifying

Celeste621: I just find the idea silly. Too big.

Gyrochaos: hmm

Angelfly3: if we could

Gyrochaos: possible

Gyrochaos: not that we can

Gyrochaos: but like

Gyrochaos: you could see that group of atoms

Shadow: well, we can't comprehend ourselves completely. why should we comprehend something bigger?

Gyrochaos: I mean

Gyrochaos: we can't comprehend it

Gyrochaos: but like

Shadow: methinks we're on last week's chat again

Gyrochaos: in one possible life

Celeste621: Exactly, Shadow.

Gyrochaos: we comprehend the most of a town

Gyrochaos: I reallymean just "see"

Gyrochaos: or be able to interact with

Shadow: I think we've done this topic to death, unfortunately

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