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Author Topic: When Others Pray For You?  (Read 32450 times)
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« Reply #75: May 13, 2007, 12:25:12 pm »

Yes, but it would make you think twice about asking him for help in the future.

What on earth gives you that notion?  Kindly refrain from speaking for me with this "would" language; setting aside the fact that you clearly know nothing about me, it's kind of tacky to tell other people what to think.

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What I guess I'm trying to say, is that if you need help in something that you know in your heart and soul is the right thing for you at that time, unless you had complete faith in recieiving that help, why bother?

Because it's useful to ask?

There is never complete faith that one will receive help from anyone, because life is like that.  I see no reason to treat the gods with less basic human decency and respect than I give any other entity.  The only being whose actions I own and control is myself -- everyone else has their own concerns which may be incompatible, in any given moment, with doing exactly what I want them to.  Expecting otherwise is foolish at best, and arrogantly presumptuous at worst.
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« Reply #76: May 13, 2007, 05:14:39 pm »

Ah, so you don't have complete faith then?


Wow, I wouldn't have the cojones to insinuate that someone didn't really believe in the deities that they follow. 

For the most part I assume that there are nuances to most personal relationships, and that those I am not an intimate part of hold degrees of polarity that I may not understand, being on the outside looking in.

I've traced this thread up from the last post, (yay for consistent quoting, it really does have a purpose)  The drift is something interesting.

I find that there are more reasons for prayer than seeking concrete bank account affecting action.

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What I guess I'm trying to say, is that if you need help in something that you know in your heart and soul is the right thing for you at that time, unless you had complete faith in receiving that help, why bother?

When you tell your husband about a miserable day, you aren't necessarily asking him to fix your terrible boss, make all the traffic go away, or to go run over the gal who comes to work in too few clothes causing every male in the vicinity to stop talking and stare for a few minutes before asking you what were we talking about again?  Even though I want to be able to eat brownies every day and lay around in the air conditioning and never gain an ounce, it isn't a reasonable expectation.  I would not expect deity to alleviate the laws of nature simply because of my heartfelt desire. 

Sometimes you just want an ear. 

Relationships with deity are often the same way. 

My personal relationship with deity isn't one of a fix all, cure all make the whole wide world work how I want it to, smite my neighbor because I want to bang his wife, style relationship.  In fact if I were to have that attitude my patroness would leave me in a ditch on the side of the road with an *ungrateful biatch* sign hung around my neck.  Sometimes you'll get what you are given, and you will like it, or go pound sand.

Just today I mentioned to my lady how I would like some feathers.  She gave me a up close and personal view of a Swainsons hawk picking off a small unseen animal of some description at close range.  Yeah.  I can make hair ornaments out of that.  -Not.

Without going into how a relationship with Set is going to be a bit different from a relationship with The Morrigan, or one with Brigid it's rather hard to concentrate into an easily digested and thread congruent post.

My patroness has never promised me a life without trial or hardship.  My understanding of this is not a lack of faith, but an acceptance of a conditional relationship.  I am in the relationship not because of what I feel I should be given, but for what I give to the causes of my Lady.  If something is not related to her she is unlikely to move mountains for me.  If there is something that is related to my ultimate survival or demise it might be a different story, but the average person is not truly confronted with these things nearly as often as they feel they are. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the gods spend a goodly amount of time laughing at how breakable we humans feel we are.

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« Reply #77: May 13, 2007, 08:20:42 pm »

I wouldn't be surprised if the gods spend a goodly amount of time laughing at how breakable we humans feel we are.

I'd be very surprised if they didn't find human behavior a source of amusement!   Wink
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« Reply #78: May 14, 2007, 05:24:43 am »

What on earth gives you that notion?  Kindly refrain from speaking for me with this "would" language; setting aside the fact that you clearly know nothing about me, it's kind of tacky to tell other people what to think.

LOL, sorry I should have been more specific.  'Would' and 'you' were not referring to you personally.  It was purely a rhetorical statement.

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There is never complete faith that one will receive help from anyone, because life is like that. 

"A good mate will cover up for you if you committed a murder...a GREAT mate would help you bury the body!"

Joking aside....

I disagree with you there.  I know, that if in times of trouble, one of my friends needed my help for something important to them, I would do anything within my capabilities to help them [physically, or mentally]...and I know they would do the same for me.  This is assuming that the help required is 'legal' and doesn't go against my morals.  I would never ask a mate for help if I didn't have complete faith in knowing that that friend would help.

The same thing applies to magic and calling on your god/s for help IMO. 

Let's say you were crafting a spell for something and you called on your god to help.  If that spell failed, who would that be down to?  You, or your god?  If your god chose not to help you, why do you think that is?  Do you not think that what you're asking for, might not be right for you at that time? Do you not think that maybe you didn't take the time to observe the energies around you, notice the direction they were taking, work with them and find your intent...rather than just decide it?

This is why magic fails for a lot of people IMO.

For instance, say that you wanted a bigger house.  You focused your magical energies on getting that bigger house.  You didn't get it.  You wonder why your magic failed.

Or maybe you did get the house of your dreams, but lost it soon after [still magic failed imo].

If you had taken the time to observe the energies around you, you would have realised that your husband has been a little quiet and pensive lately, maybe he's working lot's more overtime but is reluctant to spend money and you're not sure why...but don't ask.  Maybe he's in a bad mood ~ and you don't want to ask him about it.  You also fail to notice that your son/daughter has been taking drugs/drinking/got into a bad crowd...whatever.

Then, Let's say, even after failing to observe those energies around you, that you DO get the house of your dreams....

Next thing, you're presented with a whopping great bill because your son/daughter/whatever had stolen someone's car and wrecked it and your husband lost his job ~ that's the reason he was quiet and working more overtime whenever it became available.  However, all YOU could focus on was the extra overtime and how much better off you'll be...you CAN afford that new house.

 

You lose your dream house.

My point is, if you're not aware of the energies around you ~ and don't work with them, or choose to ignore them...for whatever reason...then what you're asking for, will not come to fruition, and if it does, you may find yourself regretting it later.

...and if your god isn't helping you with your goal, maybe your not asking for the right thing.  This is why I belive intention comes to you...not the other way around.  If you observe and work with energy and go with it, I believe the gods will grant you the success you desire everytime.

*Edit*  The word 'you' is used in collective terms...not personally.



 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 05:32:43 am by Goth » Logged
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« Reply #79: May 14, 2007, 06:49:30 am »


...and if your god isn't helping you with your goal, maybe your not asking for the right thing.  This is why I belive intention comes to you...not the other way around.  If you observe and work with energy and go with it, I believe the gods will grant you the success you desire everytime.


Making this short and sweet: I disagree. (Leaving aside that you make the gods sound like a vending machine.) Every time? The only place where things happen "every time" you do things exactly right is math. Even if we do things exactly right, sometimes we fail to get what we want ... and even if we do nothing, we sometimes get a reward. (the other day I found Y5000 lying in the street, complete coincidence. And no, I wasn't in dire need of money or anything.) This is especially true in chaotic systems such as weather and bureaucracy.

As a matter of fact, the first thing my gods told me was "you're an adult and we are not going to bail your ass out of anything." I personally do not even do magic, and I believe it is generally less effective than taking mundane action. The closest I've come to a spell recently is along the lines of "Boss, could you make sure this form gets through the pipes as fast as possible?" Which worked perfectly; that is the true power of words IMO.

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I would never ask a mate for help if I didn't have complete faith in knowing that that friend would help.

I also find it strange that you claim to only ask for something if you're sure you'll get it. Have you never asked on an outside chance, even when it would cost you nothing? Kind of comes across as fear of rejection, to me. (I have often been pleasantly surprised doing this.)

Finally, I am always slightly unsettled to hear someone saying that it is possible for someone to be completely in control of their circumstances. While this suggests that we are capable of achieving anything if we go about it the right way, it also implies that any failure is entirely our own fault (we didn't read the energies right, we didn't think enough Affirming Thoughts, we didn't trust in Jesus enough, or whatever). Of course each individual has the power to direct their lives, but there are also forces affecting us (positively and negatively) which are not related in any way to our actions. Sometimes it really is Not Your Fault.

(this would probably make more sense if I were sober this evening.)
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« Reply #80: May 14, 2007, 07:18:49 am »

I disagree with you there.  I know, that if in times of trouble, one of my friends needed my help for something important to them, I would do anything within my capabilities to help them [physically, or mentally]...and I know they would do the same for me.  This is assuming that the help required is 'legal' and doesn't go against my morals.  I would never ask a mate for help if I didn't have complete faith in knowing that that friend would help.

The same thing applies to magic and calling on your god/s for help IMO.   

What about wants?  What about things that are iffy?

If you ask me, it sounds like blaming the victim.  If things don't work out for you, it's YOUR fault.  YOU didn't pay attention to the energies around you, YOU were only focused on the wrong things, YOU YOU YOU.

Sometimes you do everything right and it all goes to hell.  Sometimes you do things wrong and you get the right result anyway.

And sometimes you act on wants, too.  Nothing wrong with that.  (ever ask your friends to chat because you just felt like chatting?  if they say no, is this a cosmic sense of ignoring the right energies?)

Reads a lot like blaming the victim to me.
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« Reply #81: May 14, 2007, 07:32:27 am »

There is never complete faith that one will receive help from anyone, because life is like that.  I see no reason to treat the gods with less basic human decency and respect than I give any other entity.  The only being whose actions I own and control is myself -- everyone else has their own concerns which may be incompatible, in any given moment, with doing exactly what I want them to.  Expecting otherwise is foolish at best, and arrogantly presumptuous at worst.

Besides the other excellent comments...

The help I need (or the help that will actually be long-term helpful) is not always the help I *think* I need. (Particularly if I am seriously stressed, upset, or wrapped up in a particular issue.) Asking for help sometimes gets me something totally different from what I expected, and that's an excellent thing.

There's also the fact that I don't believe the deities I work with are omnipotent: as it turns out, there is help they can give more easily than others. (An awful lot like people.) I'm still learning where some of those things are, and honestly, expect I'll be learning it in 50 years, too. I consider that a benefit, not a disadvantage, because I sometimes get help I totally hadn't expected.

A human example of this: I'm moving again next month, and having done this twice in the last 18 months, I'm a little hesitant about hitting up the same friends for help. I've had several friends give me very specific and incredibly useful help already - not because I asked them for help, but because I just talked through stuff with them (mostly trying to problemsolve stuff myself) and had them chime in with "Oh, hey, I happen to be going to a massive garage sale on Wednesday anyway: what stuff do you want me to look for?" (for example: I've got to refit my kitchen.) It's help I'd never have asked for specifically because I wouldn't have thought of that (or known they were going garage saling), but it's definitely of use.

I want to give my deities the same opportunity I give my friends: that means not walking in and asking for specific stuff that may limit what I actually want to accomplish.
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« Reply #82: May 14, 2007, 08:47:41 am »

I disagree with you there.  I know, that if in times of trouble, one of my friends needed my help for something important to them, I would do anything within my capabilities to help them [physically, or mentally]...and I know they would do the same for me.  This is assuming that the help required is 'legal' and doesn't go against my morals.  I would never ask a mate for help if I didn't have complete faith in knowing that that friend would help.

The same thing applies to magic and calling on your god/s for help IMO. 

Let's say you were crafting a spell for something and you called on your god to help.  If that spell failed, who would that be down to?  You, or your god?  If your god chose not to help you, why do you think that is?  Do you not think that what you're asking for, might not be right for you at that time? Do you not think that maybe you didn't take the time to observe the energies around you, notice the direction they were taking, work with them and find your intent...rather than just decide it?

Hrm.  OK, let me try putting what I said earlier another way, and see if it at all comes close to what you're saying here.

I have complete faith that my Gods will help me...  but when Their help is needed and merited, and "help" may not be what I think it is.  What I don't believe is that They will give me every little thing I ask for just because I asked for it.  If I never set my alarm and show up late to work on a regular basis, They are not going to turn my alarm on for me, and They are not going to mess with my boss's head to keep me from getting fired.  More likely, if I ask for help in that situation, what I'll get is help remembering to turn the alarm on, or help in getting a job with hours better suited to my natural sleep cycle, or some sort of help in the direction of getting my life under control so that I'm more able to wake up on time.

Well, OK, I do have to put one more limitation on that.  I also think there are some lengths to which They probably will not usually go.  If, for example, someone is very sick and on their deathbed, I don't see Apollo working healing miracles just because it would make me, personally, happy or even just because it would benefit me, personally, in other ways.  The cycle of life and death does not stop for my convenience.  (This is just the example that comes to mind; I'm sure there are other circumstances as well.)

Make sense?
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« Reply #83: May 14, 2007, 09:03:48 am »

Making this short and sweet: I disagree. (Leaving aside that you make the gods sound like a vending machine.) Every time?


Intent comes to you, if you 'observe' the pattern in the chaos.  If the time is 'right' for you...it will work IMO.  I didn't say everytime you crafted magic, it would work.  Read my sentence again  Wink

Quote
I also find it strange that you claim to only ask for something if you're sure you'll get it.

Well, if I wasn't 100% sure of getting results...I wouldn't focus on the goal.  Isn't that the whole idea?  You don't craft magic hoping it will work...you must know it will work. 

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Have you never asked on an outside chance, even when it would cost you nothing?

Working with energy always costs you something...for every action there's a reaction.

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Finally, I am always slightly unsettled to hear someone saying that it is possible for someone to be completely in control of their circumstances. While this suggests that we are capable of achieving anything if we go about it the right way, it also implies that any failure is entirely our own fault (we didn't read the energies right, we didn't think enough (this would probably make more sense if I were sober this evening.)

It is never possible for someone to be completely in control of their circumstances...all of the time.  I never said that.  But it's an absolute must to be 100% 'aware' and 'in control' of 'your' own energy during magical workings.  Otherwise, as someone said on another board...you are just pissing in the wind.  How can you be in control of your own energy when you are oblivious to the energies of others around you?

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« Reply #84: May 14, 2007, 09:34:28 am »

What about things that are iffy?

What do you mean by 'iffy?' 

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If you ask me, it sounds like blaming the victim.  If things don't work out for you, it's YOUR fault.  YOU didn't pay attention to the energies around you, YOU were only focused on the wrong things, YOU YOU YOU.

Where magic is concerned, that's absolutely correct IMO, you hit the nail right on the head!

'Sometimes' failures occur in mundane life too.  It's often human nature to look for a scapegoat and blame our personal failures on others...without examining ourselves, and our 'own' actions/behaviour.

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Sometimes you do everything right and it all goes to hell.

What you 'think' is right is not always the right thing to do IMO.

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Sometimes you do things wrong and you get the right result anyway.

Yes, but at whose expense?  You may have got what you desired, but you might have left a trail of devastation behind you...which will come back and kick you up the butt...eventually.

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(ever ask your friends to chat because you just felt like chatting?  if they say no, is this a cosmic sense of ignoring the right energies?)

Possibly.  You have to ask yourself why they don't want to chat?  Could be because they're having a bad day or feeling ill...in which case they would usually explain why.  On the other hand, you may have offended them on a previous occasion and they are angry with you.

Sometimes, friends will give off signals that they don't wish to be bothered that day.  If those signals are ignored and yet you go ahead and call them anyway...who's to blame when you are given the cold shoulder?



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« Reply #85: May 14, 2007, 09:43:12 am »

What do you mean by 'iffy?' 

not everything is black and white.  What about things that are semi-needs?  or wants that are important but not needs?  What's a "need"?

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Where magic is concerned, that's absolutely correct IMO, you hit the nail right on the head!

'Sometimes' failures occur in mundane life too.  It's often human nature to look for a scapegoat and blame our personal failures on others...without examining ourselves, and our 'own' actions/behaviour.

And sometimes failures just happen.  Are you saying that EVERY time things don't work the way we want it has cosmic significance?

In any competition, there can only be one winner.  That doesn't mean the people that didn't win didn't do their best, and it doesn't mean they're less worthy in some cosmic sense.
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What you 'think' is right is not always the right thing to do IMO.

well, duh.  That's the nature of life.
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Yes, but at whose expense?  You may have got what you desired, but you might have left a trail of devastation behind you...which will come back and kick you up the butt...eventually.

or you get lucky.  I'm not saying you should rely on that, but sometimes it happens.  Not everything has cosmic significance.

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Possibly.  You have to ask yourself why they don't want to chat?  Could be because they're having a bad day or feeling ill...in which case they would usually explain why.  On the other hand, you may have offended them on a previous occasion and they are angry with you.

Sometimes, friends will give off signals that they don't wish to be bothered that day.  If those signals are ignored and yet you go ahead and call them anyway...who's to blame when you are given the cold shoulder?

Or they're busy.  Or you called at a bad time.  Or they're just not in the mood that day.  Am I supposed to be psychic and know this before I even call?
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« Reply #86: May 14, 2007, 09:47:49 am »

Sometimes, friends will give off signals that they don't wish to be bothered that day.  If those signals are ignored and yet you go ahead and call them anyway...who's to blame when you are given the cold shoulder?

And sometimes there are no signals.  If you've had no contact with a person that day, you have no way of knowing whether they're in a mood to chat or not.  And you won't know until you try to strike up a conversation.  Even then, if they simply don't answer the phone, you don't know if they're just not home, or in the shower, or whatever, or if they saw your number on the caller ID and decided they didn't want to talk to you, or if they've unplugged their phone entirely to avoid everyone.

The thing is...  the universe is an unpredictable thing sometimes, especially when you start involving other living beings that have their own moods, desires, motivations, goals, etc.  Sometimes things fail.  Sometimes circumstances are beyond one's ability to predict or control. While I fully support taking responsibility for one's own actions, whether success or failure, sometimes it really isn't one's fault when something goes wrong.  Taking responsibility needs to be done...  well, responsibly.  Take it when it's yours, but don't when it's not.  Because trying to take responsibility for not forseeing things you had absolutely no way of forseeing can really, really be self-destructive.  And that's not helping anyone, not yourself and not your Gods and not anyone you were trying to help in the first place.
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« Reply #87: May 14, 2007, 10:21:09 am »





That being the case, why bother with prayer or magic at all, since it will only be answered if you are praying the 'correct' prayer for something that was already on it's way. 

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« Reply #88: May 14, 2007, 10:36:54 am »

And sometimes there are no signals.  If you've had no contact with a person that day, you have no way of knowing whether they're in a mood to chat or not.  And you won't know until you try to strike up a conversation.  Even then, if they simply don't answer the phone, you don't know if they're just not home, or in the shower, or whatever, or if they saw your number on the caller ID and decided they didn't want to talk to you, or if they've unplugged their phone entirely to avoid everyone.

I did say 'possibly.'  I did also provide a few other reasons as to why this could be.  The 'missing the signal' thing I mentioned because that was maybe a possibility too.  Heartshadows question was "if they say no" (pressumeably, without giving a reason)...not simply just not answering their phone.

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« Reply #89: May 14, 2007, 10:39:59 am »

I did say 'possibly.'  I did also provide a few other reasons as to why this could be.  The 'missing the signal' thing I mentioned because that was maybe a possibility too.  Heartshadows question was "if they say no" (pressumeably, without giving a reason)...not simply just not answering their phone.



Who said they didn't give a reason?

I'm just pointing out that their lives don't revolve around yours.  Any more than the gods' lives revolve around you.

Sometimes things just don't work out to your benefit, even if you do "everything right".  That's life.
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