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Author Topic: When Others Pray For You?  (Read 31990 times)
Goth
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« Reply #90: May 14, 2007, 10:42:57 am »

That being the case, why bother with prayer or magic at all, since it will only be answered if you are praying the 'correct' prayer for something that was already on it's way. 

You're misunderstanding me.  I have to go to work now, but I'll reply to you when I get back Smiley
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Star
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« Reply #91: May 14, 2007, 10:52:35 am »

I did say 'possibly.'  I did also provide a few other reasons as to why this could be.  The 'missing the signal' thing I mentioned because that was maybe a possibility too. 

I guess I'm confused about what you're saying, then.  Throughout this conversation it has seemed to me that you've been saying the signals were always there if we'd just listen to them, so it was our own fault if we missed something.  Is that not the case?

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Heartshadows question was "if they say no" (pressumeably, without giving a reason)...not simply just not answering their phone.

OK, I'll grant that, but I don't think the difference between the two is really the point here.  The point was, if you haven't had any contact with your friend that day until the call, you have no signals to go on.  So how are you supposed to know that they don't want to talk?  You can't know until you try.  Whether they respond by saying they can't/won't talk right then, or by not answering the phone entirely, or even by agreeing to talk, is immaterial.  It's the caller's actions we're addressing here, not those of the person being called.
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« Reply #92: May 14, 2007, 11:08:04 am »


My patroness has never promised me a life without trial or hardship. 


(disclaimer, I haven't finished reading the thread yet since I'm playing catch up after the weekend again Wink )

But, without going into details, you said it Mandi Smiley
And how. I know I've commented before on something along these lines, in a different thread a while back and it seems I wasn't the only one to have a similar conversation with a particular Lady. Making it easy or doing things for me... nah, that was never on the agenda lol
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« Reply #93: May 14, 2007, 11:08:52 am »

I hit post too soon, sorry.  To continue from the paragraph quoted below...

OK, I'll grant that, but I don't think the difference between the two is really the point here.  The point was, if you haven't had any contact with your friend that day until the call, you have no signals to go on.  So how are you supposed to know that they don't want to talk?  You can't know until you try.  Whether they respond by saying they can't/won't talk right then, or by not answering the phone entirely, or even by agreeing to talk, is immaterial.  It's the caller's actions we're addressing here, not those of the person being called.

To bring this back to the topic at hand and out of the realm of metaphors, I think the question at hand is how much we can reasonably expect to know how a given deity will respond to a given request at a given time.  Thus, again, the focus is on the human (the person placing the call), not the deity (the person recieving it).  

How much certainty the human can have about the deity's response seems analagous to how much certainty the person placing the call can have about the response of the person recieving it.  The human can probably have a reasonably accurate feeling about whether, in general, a particular deity will be open to listening to them, as well as that deity's "specialties" (as it were) and favored causes and such.  But it can be difficult to be certain of what specific response that deity will have to the specific situation at hand.  There may be factors at work that the human is unaware of and unable to predict or control that would affect how much help, if any, the deity is willing to give.  

The human, it seems to those of us arguing the other side here, cannot be certain of all factors involved in a given situation.  Thus, it is impossible to have total faith that the deity will do everything that the human requests, even when all the energies and whatever that the human being has access to have been considered properly.  The point of calling on the deity if the human is not certain of recieving help is just what I said above:  You can't know until you try.  So you ask, and you take what steps you can yourself to cover your ass if the answer is "no".  *shrug*
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« Reply #94: May 14, 2007, 01:41:50 pm »

I disagree with you there.  I know, that if in times of trouble, one of my friends needed my help for something important to them, I would do anything within my capabilities to help them [physically, or mentally]...and I know they would do the same for me.  This is assuming that the help required is 'legal' and doesn't go against my morals.  I would never ask a mate for help if I didn't have complete faith in knowing that that friend would help.

And I know that I cannot assume that everyone around me will drop everything simply because I ask, because I cannot know how important the things they are doing are to them.  Further, I know that sometimes there are active things that actually preclude them from doing certain things, even if they would like to.

There is something I need from the Celt.  He knows I need it; I know he knows.  He is not currently giving it to me, because there are active reasons he cannot do so.  This is not something that threatens our relationship, weakens is, reduces my "faith" in him, any of these things: we are completely clear on where we are, the situation, and all of this, and our honesty with each other strengthens our partnership.

The only way I can know for certain that someone is automatically available to me is if I have enslaved them; only in that circumstance are they completely unable to refuse.  And even then, if they have a broken arm, they're not gonna be able to carry my heavy objects no matter how much I have the power to compel compliance.

Someone having limitations is not a betrayal when one recognises that entities are finite; expecting automatic help means that the finitude of living in reality becomes a betrayal.
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« Reply #95: May 14, 2007, 02:01:19 pm »

Besides the other excellent comments...

The help I need (or the help that will actually be long-term helpful) is not always the help I *think* I need. (Particularly if I am seriously stressed, upset, or wrapped up in a particular issue.) Asking for help sometimes gets me something totally different from what I expected, and that's an excellent thing.

There's also -- asking for help only when something is absolutely needed is a great way to live in perpetual state of crisis.

There's a slow and steady continuum, especially in ongoing situations and relationships (in other words, most of life) from 'this would be kind of nice' through to 'I'd like that' to 'I want this thing' to 'this looks like it'll prevent that issue getting worse' to 'I need something that to deal with this problem' to 'OMG if I don't get that the world will end'.

Asking when things are comparatively trivial means that it doesn't matter as much if they're not all fulfilled, because even those things that have crossed over into minor needs get dealt with before they escalate into crisis mode.  The later the process starts, the more likely that things go into For Want Of A Nail mode and wind up in a panic.
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« Reply #96: May 14, 2007, 03:09:40 pm »

I guess I'm confused about what you're saying, then.  Throughout this conversation it has seemed to me that you've been saying the signals were always there if we'd just listen to them, so it was our own fault if we missed something.  Is that not the case?

Hi again Star Smiley

We are continually recieving signals from other people...some positive, some negative.  Each dictate our response toward that person and vice versa.

I based my reply on the information HeartShadow provided.  She didn't say whether the person had given her a reason for not wanting to talk...only that they said "no."  I merely offered some possibilities as to why they said no...without seemingly offering a reason for doing so.

Quote
OK, I'll grant that, but I don't think the difference between the two is really the point here.

I think it is.  If someone just decides not to answer their phone, it could be for any number of reasons.  They don't know who's calling, do they?  So it can't be personal.  But if someone answers their phone and tells you flat out "NO", they don't want to talk to you [without giving a reason] then in my book, that is personal.

If energies were flowing the way that they should be, your friend would give you a reason for not wanting to talk at that particular time...and that's perfectly fine.  I don't expect anyone to talk to me 'just because'.  We all need our 'quiet time.'



  
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Star
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« Reply #97: May 14, 2007, 03:17:27 pm »

I think it is.  If someone just decides not to answer their phone, it could be for any number of reasons.  They don't know who's calling, do they?  So it can't be personal.  But if someone answers their phone and tells you flat out "NO", they don't want to talk to you [without giving a reason] then in my book, that is personal.

If energies were flowing the way that they should be, your friend would give you a reason for not wanting to talk at that particular time...and that's perfectly fine.  I don't expect anyone to talk to me just 'because'.  we all need our 'quiet time.'

I'm sorry, I don't understand how this relates to the situation we were discussing.  Not the phone call metaphor itself, I mean, but the question of whether having total faith in a deity means that you can reasonably expect them to provide for whatever you ask for.  Can you spell out the connection more clearly for me, please?

(I could point out several flaws in what you say about the phone call, but I really feel like we're straying from the actual point here.)
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« Reply #98: May 14, 2007, 03:34:25 pm »

I'm sorry, I don't understand how this relates to the situation we were discussing.  Not the phone call metaphor itself, I mean, but the question of whether having total faith in a deity means that you can reasonably expect them to provide for whatever you ask for.  Can you spell out the connection more clearly for me, please?

They don't provide...they approve.  If you make the right decisions, based on the 'cues' you've been given, then your magic won't fail...in my opinion.  It's you working together 'with' your god/dess, not expecting him or her to do the work for you.

You do the hard work, you make the decisions...you are the crafter. The universe provides the opportunities.  It's upto you to take advantage of them...or not.

It would be interesting to hear how everyone defines magic.



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« Reply #99: May 14, 2007, 03:40:26 pm »

They don't provide...they approve. 

I thought this all started with talking about asking for deities' aid?  That seems like providing, not just approving...  "Approving" is a much more passive thing, just standing back and going, "Yeah, that's OK."  Aid would actually be doing something to help bring about the desired result.

Quote
If you make the right decisions, based on the 'cues' you've been given, then your magic won't fail...in my opinion. 

And, again, what if there have been no cues to pick up on?
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« Reply #100: May 14, 2007, 03:48:34 pm »

They don't provide...they approve.

OK, I went back and found the beginning of the discussion, so that I can show you why I'm confused here.  Here's what Purplewitch said:

However, I dont see it as using Her to ask if She will add a little extra to something, or lend her aid - whether She does or not is up to Her.

And your reply to her:

Ah, so you don't have complete faith then?

...And it went from there, about the nature of faith and whether not being certain that you were going to recieve help was an indication of incomplete faith, and whether the Gods were inclined to give any help we asked for.  Ever since then, we've all been talking about what deities will or will not do to help us.  Has that not been what you've thought the conversation was about?  Have the rest of us been talking about something completely different from what you've been talking about?

I hope you can see why I'm getting confused here.   Undecided
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« Reply #101: May 14, 2007, 03:53:17 pm »

I thought this all started with talking about asking for deities' aid?  That seems like providing, not just approving...  "Approving" is a much more passive thing, just standing back and going, "Yeah, that's OK."  Aid would actually be doing something to help bring about the desired result.


I want to post, but right now I'm up to my eyes in stuff *sighs* so I apologise for being brief.

Going back to my recent 'kick' example (without all the argument over a choice of word Wink )... From my perspective, given the outcome of that particular incident, I'd say she did a lot more than simply 'stamp approved' on it, but added to it - so She did provide Her assistance. Does that simply mean I made the 'right' choice?

(Given our personalities, hers and mine, I still prefer the baseball bat option, but that is completely besides the point lol)

Star, is there a thread already about defining magic, as goth suggested? If not, does someone want to start one? I think it's a good idea, I just have a room full of furniture to shift right now!
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« Reply #102: May 14, 2007, 03:56:00 pm »

Star, is there a thread already about defining magic, as goth suggested? If not, does someone want to start one? I think it's a good idea, I just have a room full of furniture to shift right now!

I'm not sure, but that discussion probably should be spun off into a new thread.  I think it was touched on earlier in this thread, but not really explored.  I'll go start it--look for it in this folder.
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« Reply #103: May 14, 2007, 03:56:20 pm »

I thought this all started with talking about asking for deities' aid?  That seems like providing, not just approving... 

Aid is not 'providing'.  Aid is help.  Big difference IMO.  The aid from the gods should be sought before the magic commences. This was what I meant by calling on your gods for aid.  Calling on them to aid you in your decisions, to make sure you are making the right decisions...before commencing with the magic.

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And, again, what if there have been no cues to pick up on?

Then I guess your definition of magic, differs to mine  Smiley
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« Reply #104: May 14, 2007, 04:06:33 pm »

I'm not sure, but that discussion probably should be spun off into a new thread.  I think it was touched on earlier in this thread, but not really explored.  I'll go start it--look for it in this folder.
thanks Star Smiley
now if someone would just come shift furniture for me so I had more time.... Wink
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