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Author Topic: 6 Year Old Kicked Out Of School  (Read 14650 times)
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« Topic Start: October 13, 2009, 02:16:30 pm »

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/12/national/main5378839.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody


   OK, i am of two different thoughts on this one.

    One part says the school is absolutely correct.

  The other side says...wait a minute...this is a *** 6 ***  year old Child.   6 year old minds do not grasp completely the right/ wrong seriousness of actions and the consequences.   ( heck, some adults don't grasp it either)

 I do believe that the mandatory 45 day suspension from school, and having to go to a "special school for troubled children"  is Way off.    If he doesn't have issues now...he will most likely have them after that.  Plus, he has learned how to make grown-ups get Really agitated  That definately is a useful life skill !  *sarcasm*

  I know that there are educators on this group, and while i do understand a Zero Tolerance rule... it also seems as tho... each case should have its own review and possible outcome.

    I certainly would like to hear others views on this.  Mea.
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« Reply #1: October 13, 2009, 02:26:47 pm »


I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance policies specifically because of cases like this.  Inevitably zero-tolerance winds up punishing the harmless right along with the harmful, and it seems like they often do so in ridiculous ways.

OK, he shouldn't have brought the utensil to school.  I get that, and I understand why they have a policy, to keep the other students safe.  I don't understand why the situation merits suspension.  When the person with the alleged weapon is a six-year-old with no other history of disciplinary problems or violence (unless there is a history the article's not telling us about), what's wrong with simply confiscating the offending item and explaining to him and his parents that this is not an item he may bring to school?  If he continues to bring it anyway, then maybe further action might be required, but...  suspension?  Right off the bat?  It seems a bit of an overreaction, to say the least.
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« Reply #2: October 13, 2009, 03:13:57 pm »

   I know that there are educators on this group, and while i do understand a Zero Tolerance rule... it also seems as tho... each case should have its own review and possible outcome.

    I certainly would like to hear others views on this.  Mea.

Personally, I think this is one of the more stupid things I've heard of, and I do think some cases should be given considerations as to the context of why an action was done.

Then again, the kid apparently has a karate instructor, so who knows - he might be the baddest 6-year old to ever kill an opponent with a spork.

(I could barely type that with a straight face...)
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« Reply #3: October 13, 2009, 03:17:47 pm »

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/12/national/main5378839.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody


   OK, i am of two different thoughts on this one.

    One part says the school is absolutely correct.

  The other side says...wait a minute...this is a *** 6 ***  year old Child.   6 year old minds do not grasp completely the right/ wrong seriousness of actions and the consequences.   ( heck, some adults don't grasp it either)

 I do believe that the mandatory 45 day suspension from school, and having to go to a "special school for troubled children"  is Way off.    If he doesn't have issues now...he will most likely have them after that.  Plus, he has learned how to make grown-ups get Really agitated  That definately is a useful life skill !  *sarcasm*

  I know that there are educators on this group, and while i do understand a Zero Tolerance rule... it also seems as tho... each case should have its own review and possible outcome.

    I certainly would like to hear others views on this.  Mea.

I think this is more of the paranoid bullshit that spoils things in this country.  This is the child equivalent of mandatory sentencing and the three strikes rule.  At most, the teacher should have put it in her desk until the end of the day and sent it home with a note.  Honestly, I think it is kind of dumb that anything happened at all.  Don't kids that bring their lunch bring silverware? Does the lunchroom staff make them eat with their hands?  Bullshit!
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« Reply #4: October 13, 2009, 03:19:10 pm »

 I know that there are educators on this group, and while i do understand a Zero Tolerance rule... it also seems as tho... each case should have its own review and possible outcome.

I can't understand zero tolerance at all. It lost the connection with the goal it wants to achieve and has become a means in itself, and that is, imo, never a very wise idea. It teaches that thinks are only black or white, right or wrong. It teaches no sense of proportion at all, nor adult resolution of problems. (If, as a school, you overreact so grossly at something that is very innocent, how can you teach kids to not overreact? That in itself seems to breed violence: everything is seen and treated as a Big Issue and dealt with accordingly. How can you get the children not to hit back hard when someone calls you names? Just to say: 'I'll pick my battles wisely, I will only fight if there is no other way to deal with the situation' if they have no example of such behavior?)

Rules against bringing weapons to school are sensible: it serves a purpose to keep the kids safe. But this? What positive consequence could this possibly have?? No other child of 6 will learn from this incident because they can't even grasp it. And other parents probably won't learn from it either, because they just connect the situation to their own.  
But it does probably leave some resentment with the parents and hurt the kid's self esteem, both of which are bad but also very unnecessary.

So in my mind... zero tolerance is bad. Human judgement is a very important talent, we should value it and use it, not replace it with inhumane, blind rules. (Didn't the totalitarian systems of the east do that? Hadn't we already learned why it's wrong?)
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« Reply #5: October 13, 2009, 03:40:24 pm »

I think this is more of the paranoid bullshit that spoils things in this country.  This is the child equivalent of mandatory sentencing and the three strikes rule.  At most, the teacher should have put it in her desk until the end of the day and sent it home with a note.  Honestly, I think it is kind of dumb that anything happened at all.  Don't kids that bring their lunch bring silverware? Does the lunchroom staff make them eat with their hands?  Bullshit!

Agreed. "Zero tolerance" is almost always wrong-headed and counterproductive. Cases like this demonstrate that well, but they never sink in to the bureaucratic mind who think them up. (Imagine the reaction to a zero-tolerance rule on teacher errors. Misgrade a paper and you have are suspended without pay for 6 weeks.)
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« Reply #6: October 13, 2009, 04:57:44 pm »

I know that there are educators on this group, and while i do understand a Zero Tolerance rule... it also seems as tho... each case should have its own review and possible outcome.

Which is why I'm an educator in an independent (aka private) school. Gods know we've got imperfections as well, but we don't have to deal with district-wide rulings, and there's a lot more flexibility in dealing with specific unusual situations.

(All of which is to say, I've got tremendous respect for folks in the public education system, as either students or staff, because dealing with the combination of large numbers of people with specific wants/needs/desires on one hand, and dealing with a large-scale bureacracy on the top side is not my idea of fun.)
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« Reply #7: October 13, 2009, 05:49:56 pm »

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/12/national/main5378839.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody


   OK, i am of two different thoughts on this one.

    One part says the school is absolutely correct.

  The other side says...wait a minute...this is a *** 6 ***  year old Child.   6 year old minds do not grasp completely the right/ wrong seriousness of actions and the consequences.   ( heck, some adults don't grasp it either)

 I do believe that the mandatory 45 day suspension from school, and having to go to a "special school for troubled children"  is Way off.    If he doesn't have issues now...he will most likely have them after that.  Plus, he has learned how to make grown-ups get Really agitated  That definately is a useful life skill !  *sarcasm*

  I know that there are educators on this group, and while i do understand a Zero Tolerance rule... it also seems as tho... each case should have its own review and possible outcome.

    I certainly would like to hear others views on this.  Mea.

Zero tolerance, in my opinion, is zero intelligence.

A six year old with an camping eating set isn't threatening anyone.  A sixteen year old with a Bowie knife probably is.  In the former case you take the set for the day and tell the kid it can't come to school again.  In the latter case you remove the kid from the school, and probably a good idea to figure out what's going on in his life that he feels the need to come to school armed in the first place, and try to help fix that issue.  A little damned perspective goes a long, long way.

I've dealt with it myself.  My daughter was nearly expelled for punching a kid who was sexually harassing her.  I had to resort to threatening a lawsuit over the issue.  I told her principal that if they kicked her out, I'd sue them for permitting sexual harassment on school grounds.

You have to be able to look at the circumstances and make judgments that make sense.  Expelling a girl for protecting herself, or a 6yo for bringing an eating utensil set to school, neither makes one iota of sense.  They show a lack of intelligence on the part of the schools.
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« Reply #8: October 14, 2009, 02:57:50 am »


You have to be able to look at the circumstances and make judgments that make sense.  Expelling a girl for protecting herself, or a 6yo for bringing an eating utensil set to school, neither makes one iota of sense.  They show a lack of intelligence on the part of the schools.

I had this kind of problem when I was a child. I was being beaten up pretty much every day, and when I eventually started to defend myself, I was suspended for fighting. It took weeks to get everything sorted out and for them to look into the problem properly. I think that lack of intelligence must be a pre-requisite to become a teacher sometimes. Angry
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« Reply #9: October 14, 2009, 08:23:55 am »

I had this kind of problem when I was a child. I was being beaten up pretty much every day, and when I eventually started to defend myself, I was suspended for fighting. It took weeks to get everything sorted out and for them to look into the problem properly. I think that lack of intelligence must be a pre-requisite to become a teacher sometimes. Angry

Consider yourself lucky. I work with a girl who has a police record for the same thing.

The problem with teachers is that they lower the standereds so people pass. I am an early childhood professional (Child care) I could becoem a teacher even though I left school at 15. If teachers knew developmental and educational therories they would know.

1. Suspension doesn't work.
2. A six year old is at a very basic stage of moral understanding
3. The kid did nothing "wrong" anyway - He did something against the rules. Big Difference.

Apologies - my rant for the day.
Someone kick me off my soapbox Smiley

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« Reply #10: October 14, 2009, 08:38:44 am »

I think that lack of intelligence must be a pre-requisite to become a teacher sometimes. Angry

On behalf of my friends and family who are perfectly intelligent teachers, I object.  Yes, some teachers clearly have problems.  Others are trying their best and just slip up sometimes (they are human), or are doing what they can within the constraints of the system they work in--and still others are just flat-out good.  Sure, there are teachers who need a refresher course in reality, but that's going to be the case in any field of work.  There's really no call for deeming an entire profession unintelligent just because a few representatives of said profession have done stupid things that happened to affect you personally and/or get news coverage.
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« Reply #11: October 14, 2009, 09:47:48 am »

Misgrade a paper and you have are suspended without pay for 6 weeks.

Believe me, the way that the idiot administrators are trending, this wouldn't surprise me.

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« Reply #12: October 14, 2009, 09:54:58 am »

I think that lack of intelligence must be a pre-requisite to become a teacher sometimes.

But this isn't a problem of the teacher in the cases we've been discussing.  It is an administrative problem.  Some idiot on a school board or state legislature comes up with these ideas and then teachers are fired if they don't enforce the rules.

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« Reply #13: October 14, 2009, 10:00:21 am »

The problem with teachers is that they lower the standereds so people pass. I am an early childhood professional (Child care) I could becoem a teacher even though I left school at 15. If teachers knew developmental and educational therories they would know.

Two things: 

1.  In the US, if teachers stand firm on high standards they lose their jobs unless they are tenured.  School boards cave to whiny parents.  Also, schools are punished fiscally for holding students back.  So even if the teachers are tenured, they have to know that they would hurt the whole school for what might be good for one student.  The problem is not (for the most part) teachers.  It is the shitty system in which they are stuck.

2.  Most teachers are aware of educational research.  Most educational research is qualitative crap, so I can't see it would do them much good.

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« Reply #14: October 14, 2009, 11:09:50 am »

I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance policies specifically because of cases like this.  Inevitably zero-tolerance winds up punishing the harmless right along with the harmful, and it seems like they often do so in ridiculous ways.


   I could not come up with a link for the update, (so i picked Your post to reply to)....   On the morning CBS news they said that the school board had made some modifications to the policy, and the boy would be heading back to class.


    I do understand the school wanting to keep dangerous items out of the school.  That does make sense to me.    However... in my mind... Zero Tolerence is an "easy" way out.  They do not have to sit down on a case by case basis and find out if there is a definate problem, or a lack of comperhension on the part of the child, and work through it.   

  Just my opinion.  Others mileage may vary.  Mea.
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