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Author Topic: 6 Year Old Kicked Out Of School  (Read 14733 times)
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« Reply #30: October 16, 2009, 09:36:58 am »

Last  year  I would  get  phone calls from my  sons teacher  right  from the  classroom asking me to come  over there and make  my son sit at his desk, 3 or 4 times a day. I finally had to tell her  that SHE  had to get  control  over  him and STOP  letting him  be  in control. DO NOT  ask him to sit at his desk TELL him to sit at his desk, END OF STORY.

Given that example, I do have a moment of "Oh!" that might help.

See, I know a lot of schools who would get scared that if they enforced behavior with a student, that the student didn't like in certain ways, that they'd be getting the parent in there in a huge fuss (and possibly threatening legal action) for mistreating their child. So, for example, the district policy might be that the teacher can ask the student to sit down, but can't insist beyond a certain point: if the child doesn't behave, then they'd have to escalate it to have the administrator deal with it.

You, obviously, are fine with having them insist - but they may still be worried that you'd throw a fit about it until it's happened enough, and you've given them *positive* feedback enough that it's exactly what you'd prefer. (i.e. saying "Child said you insisted he sit down at his desk. Thanks! That's exactly what we and his support team think he needs to hear.". Or they may not be sure how to handle "It's fine to make my kid sit down" from you, combined with another parent in the classroom who would be throwing fits if their kid was spoken harshly to. (Really hard thing to do, honestly, especially with younger kids who aren't reliable reporters of what's going on in the classroom always)

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That is  no way to  have to live   while  you are at work\school, no adult  or  child  should  be subjected to  lock down drills, and  having to scope out the  safest place in the room "just  in case" .

As Mandrina said, school violence has been around for a long time. I work in a school that is extremely safe by any meaningful record - but it's also a school where students are under extremely high academic pressure (which has its own risks.) But honestly, I'd much rather do the drills, and talk about why we're doing them, (just like we do fire drills and tornado drills) than assume it's all going to be okay. One of the reasons for doing drills is that it reminds kids that we take school safety seriously - and there's some evidence that it means kids who hear about a possible threat or someone reaching the point of despair are more likely to tell an adult.
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« Reply #31: October 16, 2009, 10:11:29 am »

Life and kids behavior was always better way back when.  Yes, there were school shootings in the 1940's, and not just in Harlem, but every little paper didn't necessarily catch them.

I think this is an important point.  Violent crime has actually reduced, but the 24 hour news cycle and instant communication across the country distorts the real picture. 

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« Reply #32: October 16, 2009, 10:21:44 am »

Years ago  when  parents were still allowed to  give  little  Johnny/Susie a good  old  fashioned  butt  warming  this stuff  never  happened. We never crossed that  line when we were  kids, I know  for a fact  if I would have done  half  of  what the  kids today are allowed to  do my butt  would have   been sore  for a month, and I would have  learned  really  FAST  not to do that ever again, and to be honest I can count the  amount  of  spanking I got as a child  on one  hand because  they were made to count  for something back then.

Honestly, I've been wondering the same thing. When, exactly, did the culture change to one where the teachers lost control of their classrooms?

I was in grade school from 79 - 84/85 or so. If my teacher had called my parents in the middle of the day to tell them, "Come make your kid sit down in class", my mother probably would have come to the school. She would have marched into the classroom, grabbed me, taken me outside the classroom and whipped my ass. Then she would have pushed me back inside the classroom and gone home. Granted, my situation was slightly different - my parents could have been considered abusive and I was terrified of my mother, so there was no 'acting out' on my part. But even when I went to the 'gifted and talented' classrooms, where things weren't as structured, I don't think any of us went out of control to the point where a parent had to be called in to run interference. And I went to grade school in California & Washington, which are known for being slightly more liberal, so I don't think anyone could say we acted differently than say, kids in Nebraska or Georgia.

When I went to jr. high in Tennessee, they still enforced corporal punishment - and they did not have to contact parents or guardians if a situation happened where the dean would make you bend over & grab your ankles. He used a yard stick, too.

What zero-tolerance policies seem to indicate is that teachers have either given up trying to maintain a sense of order in their classrooms or that parents have become so sue-happy that teachers' hands are pretty much completely tied, so they make it a level playing field when dealing with infractions instead of taking it on a kid-by-kid basis. It just seems really odd to me that things have changed so drastically in the past 20 years or so.  Undecided   
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« Reply #33: October 16, 2009, 10:24:13 am »

What zero-tolerance policies seem to indicate is that teachers have either given up trying to maintain a sense of order in their classrooms or that parents have become so sue-happy that teachers' hands are pretty much completely tied, so they make it a level playing field when dealing with infractions instead of taking it on a kid-by-kid basis. It just seems really odd to me that things have changed so drastically in the past 20 years or so.  Undecided   

Keep in mind, though, that we ONLY hear about the cases where things go weird.

We don't hear about the times that Little Billy really DID bring a gun to school and got in trouble because he was mad at a teacher.  Or the fact that he thought about it and chose NOT to because he didn't want to get IN trouble.

We don't hear about the things that don't happen, or the things that happen every day.  We hear about outliers.  That's the way the news cycle works.

And the fact that we only hear about stuff like this cub scout once in a while tells me the system is probably working more than not - because we ARE hearing about it, which means it doesn't happen every day.
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« Reply #34: October 16, 2009, 10:54:40 am »

Honestly, I've been wondering the same thing. When, exactly, did the culture change to one where the teachers lost control of their classrooms?

I think this is an enormous question, with lots of answers.  I think that Shadow is correct that we never hear of the every day successes, but I also agree that classroom behavior has changed.

I think that one answer must look to the corporation model infiltrating schools.  And as such, the school become standardized and homogenized and lawsuit paranoid.  Somehow this idea of the imaginary perfect corporate culture has come to be exalted in our society, with devastating effects.  Teachers spend their days in ridiculous meetings and filling out reams of paperwork instead of getting to spend time with students (in classrooms with increasingly large numbers of students).  Since schools are moving to a "customer service" model, teachers are often not permitted to make hard decisions that are best for students (such as failing students that don't do their homework).

I think another issue that must be raised is the widening income gap in our country.  One salary used to be sufficient for most families.  Now both parents must work, and work longer hours in worse conditions with fewer benefits.  When parents come home exhausted from shitty jobs, it is a lot harder to be a good parent.  Add to that, we have had a steady dismantling of the social safety net across the country ever since the Reagan era.  So if parents lose jobs, they often have nowhere to turn.  You can't expect children to be well behaved when they spend less time with parents and are more likely to live in poverty. 

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« Reply #35: October 16, 2009, 12:00:11 pm »

(such as failing students that don't do their homework).

Honestly I'd rather them fail my  child  if  he/she is not ready  to move to the  next grade rather than worry about  standardized tests and  gov't  B.S. I got a kid in grade  7 that  is doing  grade 5  work, HOW is this any  good for HER?  Would have been better to  keep her back  a year  in grade  5 to finish  out  the work than to push her thru almost  2 grades  now. It's  very frustrating  for a parent  these days  when you ask them to  keep a child  back and  get told  oh no we can't  DO THAT  it's against  our  "No Child Left Behind Policy"  SERIOUSLY ?  If the  child can  not  do that work... leave it  BEHIND  till it CAN do the work. I don't  know  maybe it's  just the  school/ school board I have to  deal with that are  like this but  honestly  I  really think they  need to  revisit  their  policies and  possibly  re write them.
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« Reply #36: October 16, 2009, 12:03:59 pm »

Honestly, I've been wondering the same thing. When, exactly, did the culture change to one where the teachers lost control of their classrooms?

I was in grade school from 79 - 84/85 or so. If my teacher had called my parents in the middle of the day to tell them, "Come make your kid sit down in class", my mother probably would have come to the school. She would have marched into the classroom, grabbed me, taken me outside the classroom and whipped my ass. Then she would have pushed me back inside the classroom and gone home. Granted, my situation was slightly different - my parents could have been considered abusive and I was terrified of my mother, so there was no 'acting out' on my part. But even when I went to the 'gifted and talented' classrooms, where things weren't as structured, I don't think any of us went out of control to the point where a parent had to be called in to run interference. And I went to grade school in California & Washington, which are known for being slightly more liberal, so I don't think anyone could say we acted differently than say, kids in Nebraska or Georgia.

When I went to jr. high in Tennessee, they still enforced corporal punishment - and they did not have to contact parents or guardians if a situation happened where the dean would make you bend over & grab your ankles. He used a yard stick, too.

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And the next question out of my parents mouth after they made me sit down would have been, "Why didn't you send her to the principal, that's what he's there for, what about the detention business in the handbook you give us.." My schools didn't have corporal punishment, but from what I understand, things were going better without it.

But then again, I wasn't special needs.  Special needs are special.  That's the problem and the good thing. I get called before they expell my son, not while they're doing it.  My other kids don't get the same consideration.  They don't get the same slack.  THey get sent to the principal's office rather than their counselors.  I get a phone call toward the end of the day from Stanely telling me he will be home late because he has a detention because he acted  up in class.  I get a phone call from the counselor telling me VIctor had a bad day in english because he hadn't finished his math in the previous class and couldn't transition, bad enough that they had to pull him to his counselor and calm him down, but he was able to go back, we're working on this, from all fronts.  DIfferent between the two kids, Victor has an IEP and Stanley doesn't.  
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« Reply #37: October 16, 2009, 12:06:45 pm »

I don't  know  maybe it's  just the  school/ school board I have to  deal with that are  like this but  honestly  I  really think they  need to  revisit  their  policies and  possibly  re write them.

While there are some bad schools/school boards, a lot of this comes from state legislatures and political appointees in the department of education.  I'm more and more convinced that any thing beyond local control of schools leads to a massive clusterf*ck.  No Child Left Behind is a *federal* program over which local schools have no control.

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« Reply #38: October 16, 2009, 12:12:10 pm »

Honestly I'd rather them fail my  child  if  he/she is not ready  to move to the  next grade rather than worry about  standardized tests and  gov't  B.S. I got a kid in grade  7 that  is doing  grade 5  work, HOW is this any  good for HER?  Would have been better to  keep her back  a year  in grade  5 to finish  out  the work than to push her thru almost  2 grades  now. It's  very frustrating  for a parent  these days  when you ask them to  keep a child  back and  get told  oh no we can't  DO THAT  it's against  our  "No Child Left Behind Policy"  SERIOUSLY ?  If the  child can  not  do that work... leave it  BEHIND  till it CAN do the work. I don't  know  maybe it's  just the  school/ school board I have to  deal with that are  like this but  honestly  I  really think they  need to  revisit  their  policies and  possibly  re write them.

If she wasn't ready, you can hold her back.  I have known parents who have done that when they felt their child wasn't ready for the next grade even though the teacher was going to pass them.
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« Reply #39: October 16, 2009, 12:13:18 pm »

.  I'm more and more convinced that any thing beyond local control of schools leads to a massive clusterf*ck. 

OH  you got that RIGHT......  Grin
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« Reply #40: October 16, 2009, 12:16:30 pm »

If she wasn't ready, you can hold her back.  I have known parents who have done that when they felt their child wasn't ready for the next grade even though the teacher was going to pass them.

I know I knew people in high school who had been held back--though I'll admit that was ten years ago, so take it for what it's worth.  I note Jubes is in Canada, though; I don't know if that might make a difference in how things work for her.
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« Reply #41: October 16, 2009, 12:24:17 pm »

I know I knew people in high school who had been held back--though I'll admit that was ten years ago, so take it for what it's worth.  I note Jubes is in Canada, though; I don't know if that might make a difference in how things work for her.

That's true.  I had forgotten she's in Canada. Sad Me bad. 




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« Reply #42: October 16, 2009, 12:30:53 pm »

I know I knew people in high school who had been held back--though I'll admit that was ten years ago, so take it for what it's worth.  I note Jubes is in Canada, though; I don't know if that might make a difference in how things work for her.

Oh, you're right.  I just assumed American since she mentioned No Child Left Behind.

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« Reply #43: October 16, 2009, 01:16:05 pm »

Oh, you're right.  I just assumed American since she mentioned No Child Left Behind.

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I think that's a local policy at some school boards, even at some particular schools.  It has a different name, but the Americanisms sneak into our ways of thought.

Jubes - my niece was held back a year right from kindergarten, on the basis of not being mature enough for regular school.  Her parents had to give permission for it and they did, in spite of the fact that it put her in the same grade as her little brother for the rest of their schooling.  I think she might have gone to the same school as your guys, but it was a good twenty years ago.

It never bothered her except when her brother would tease her about it.  Later in life/school it was totally insignificant.  My first year at uni two of my house-mates were a 23yr old who had taken a few years off and a 16yr old who had graduated early.

I don't know why some schools are so worried about failing a year being so painful or shameful, especially in elementary school.  If a student needs more time to learn pushing her through will just make her feel inadequate and give up on the whole thing.  The difficulty can snowball each time she gets passed on and gets further behind the curve.

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« Reply #44: October 16, 2009, 03:12:27 pm »

I don't know why some schools are so worried about failing a year being so painful or shameful, especially in elementary school. 

What's interesting is that I don't hear much about skipping ahead being also painful or shameful, and yet it was my experience that it could be.  Don't get me wrong, it turned out OK in the end.  But for years I was behind my classmates in terms of maturity, and it got really embarrassing in high school when people started hitting the milestones of 16 (able to drive) and 18 (most other adult rights and priviledges, except for drinking alcohol) and my being a year young was painfully obvious despite my maturity having caught up with most of my classmates--and even surpassed several, if I do say so myself.

That said...  I think probably it's not so much the fact of being a year off (one way or the other) from one's classmates as it is the fact of having had some change, any change, happen.  I also had awkward years when I changed schools, which happened three times even if you don't count the normal moving up from elementary to middle and middle to high school.  We had one or two kids who had illnesses with visible effects (such as hair loss) that the school at large didn't know about or understand, and they had trouble too.  In high school we had at least three people in my class get pregnant that I can think of, and they had their own adjustment issues.  I didn't personally hear of anyone who got teased for lacking one parent or the other at our school, or for a sudden loss of household income rendering them "poor", but I've heard of such things happening in a more general sense.  The list goes on. 

Any time something happens that highlights you as different, you run the risk that it'll get you teased and picked on.  Most kids, I think, will weather the social effects of that and come out the other side OK.  (The consequences of the event that caused it outside of the school social sphere might be another matter, of course.)  They might have a rough time for a while, but most kids seem pretty resilient, especially if they have good social support systems (parents, teachers, friends, family) in place to help them deal.  (They might not make that much use of those support systems directly--I almost never talked to my parents about all this--but just having an otherwise stable environment to retreat to helps.)  And while being "different" in some way can be difficult, well, so is feeling dumb because you can't manage the classwork for the grade you've been pushed into when you really could've stood to repeat the previous one, I'd imagine.

And there's also the chance that a change won't have universally negative effects.  The girl in my class who had been held back enjoyed a brief stint as one of the coolest girls in our class despite being completely outside of the "popular" crowd--she had her driver's license a year before everyone else.  One of our teen pregnancies was the class president.  There was another kid who moved into our school senior year who was actually very slightly younger than me, and he being a generally less socially-awkward person than myself, everyone thought his youth was cute and cool.  Etc.  Different kids deal with different things in different ways.

...I'm just babbling at this point, so I'll just stop and hit post now.  LOL
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