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Author Topic: 6 Year Old Kicked Out Of School  (Read 15037 times)
mandrina
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« Reply #60: October 17, 2009, 05:14:54 pm »


As far as  checking notes  go, I do not  think it takes that  much time to  check  a  note on a child  if it's  handy  on the desk, also I don't think it's too far  fetched to think after a few weeks in the  classroom that a teacher would  know what to do with certain students.

I am a nurse, I work in a nursing home, very long term care sort of place, and I have my notes on each 'student' in big binders right at my overly large desk.  Every thing I do has notes attached, we have notes all over the place, over every bed, in the med book, in  the treatment book etc.  I only have 80, (I work both wings, other nurses will not move off their wings.) and we have notes all over the place and we are not supposed to do anything without looking at notes, I cannot imagine a teacher having to work in my situation, trying to keep up on the notes, even a tiny fraction of the ones I have "just on the desk", and get anything done with the kids.
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« Reply #61: October 17, 2009, 05:20:57 pm »

Expecting people to give 100% to their jobs every minute of their time at work is expecting the impossible -- no matter what the job. Demanding it is really just as silly as any other zero tolerance policy, IMHO.

Seriously.  Even with my light teaching load, it's not always possible.  I still get colds or headaches, I still have fights with my husband, or money worries, or family issues, or whatever -- and that doesn't cease to exist when I go in to teach.  It still requires *effort* to put it out of my head and concentrate on teaching.  And I only have to teach in hour-and-fifteen-minute blocks a couple times a week -- not 6-8 hours a day, five days a week.   
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« Reply #62: October 17, 2009, 06:57:30 pm »

Btw, I think the topic is drifting a bit from the original... and there are some issues runnign alongside each other.

I claim that zero tolerance policies are bad. They harm both the children and the adults involved by neglecting so much of the individual needs.

And I'm pretty sure my first post agreed with exactly that - but then pointed out some of the reasons districts might find single policies the only way they can cope with the number of students and teachers they have to deal with. ('Have', because it's generally a budget issue on both sides, not a 'hey, let's just not hire more teachers 'cause we feel like it' problem.)

As far as topic drift: that's pretty normal around here, and is largely considered a feature (because we end up talking about other sides on an issue, not just an initial one) rather than a bug.

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And to this, my opinion that is not completely possible, but certainly to great extend. And to far more extend than some teachers claim it is. You cannot, need not, accomodate each and every child's 'preference' on every subject. But saying that it's not possible to *know* those preferences or use them to some extend, is, imo, not true.

I think it's possible eventually. But I'm not sure it's possible in a regular classroom setting by this point in the year. (As I said, in my school, teachers have only had 25-30 hours of contact with a given student they teach, probably, and most of that time has been large group instruction, assessment, or project time, rather than one-on-one conversations with the student. Obviously, the stats will be a bit different for a special education program, or a younger classroom where the child spends all day with the same teaching staff.)

Personally, I'm just starting to hear the "Hey, do you have Jimmy? Have you noticed X with him?" conversations between teachers casually at lunch and in the faculty room this week and a little last week. That's usually the sign where I work that teachers have gotten beyond getting everyone's name down, getting the classroom expectations clear, getting the basic content going, and are at the point where they've had enough assessments and interactions with an individual student to look at the specific needs in more detail. (Again, unless there's some very significant issue that's worth raising earlier, like with my homeroom student.)
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« Reply #63: October 17, 2009, 07:16:15 pm »

Teaching is, I've found, one of those jobs that's most susceptible to armchair quarterbacking from people who *aren't* teachers.  I totally get the impulse on the parts of parents and others, but it's still, well, from the armchair.  Every parents' focus is on their own Precious Baby, and that's as it should be; but it can be really, really hard to convey that teachers have to deal with ROOMFULS of Precious Babies.  That's difficult enough, but then you add on Precious Babies' Parents, AND the administration, AND the school board, AND the state evaluations, AND whatever's going on in your own life... it's no wonder teachers are so prone to burnout.
  

Yep. One of the reasons I'm so glad to be at a private school is that we only have to deal with the administration, generally, not school board + state requirements + whatever else.

One of the reasons I've been thinking about this a lot is that I'm trying to pull my life back from the edge of burnout, because my brain just keeps shutting down and refusing to function. (Folks here for a while like Catja will know I'm one of those people who puts tons of stuff into my day left to my own devices.)

Just as a bit of math, for people who are curious.

- I've been averaging 9.8 hour days every day since the middle of August. This weekend is the first 3 days I've had off in a row since then.

- That doesn't include coming in to do work on weekends.

- Each day, I'm expected to spend an amount of time equivalent to our teachers (who are expected to teach roughly 16 hours a week - the rest is prep time.) in student facing time. I'm averaging between 20 and 25 hours a week.

- I get to work at 7am and leave at 4pm or later almost all the time. (Our teachers are expected to be there 7:30 to 3.)

- Three times in the last month, I've had job obligations that require me to be at work from 7am until 9pm at night. (parent/teacher night, conferences, etc.) That's gruelling no matter how you cut it, and it has an impact the next day. Being at work at 9pm means there's no way I can manage 8 hours of sleep before I have to be back at work, even though I live less than a 15 minute drive from work.

- On top of the library parts (answering questions, helping people with basic technology needs, guiding research, etc), I am expected to find collaborative teaching experiences with classroom teachers, supervise my assistant (who is amazing, but new to this job, so training has taken a fair bit of time), handle the budget for funds we get through No Child Left Behind, and attend between 2 and 6 hours of meetings every week.

- I also co-advise the school paper (part of a plan to help me get more individual interactions and relationships with students: something my head of school very much wants me to work on.) I'm enjoying it, but oy, the headaches about some bits of the last issue, and having to navigate the details. (This is not part of my official job, it's considered a co-curricular and paid through a co-curricular contract, like coaching a sport would be.) It takes 2-4 hours most weeks.

- When I'm working in the library, there are anywhere from 5 to 60 people around, with the related amounts of noise, attention to making sure that no one's looking lost, etc. I don't have to do direct supervision in the same way a classroom teacher of younger kids has to do, but I do have to have a part of my brain constantly scanning to make sure I'm not missing something.

Now, I do a really good job, but I also have seen myself dropping a lot of details that Aren't Like Me. And that worries me, and makes me unhappy. But when I sat down to look at the numbers with my mentor (since I'm new in this position, I have a mentor to have these conversations with!) he went "You know, working that much, I'm not surprised you're having this problem. Of *course* you're dropping things if you're working that much, and you're running that tired, and you're trying to manage that many very different kinds of mental tasks."

And then we talked through suggestions on how to handle specific pieces of it, so I can continue to do a better job, but feel less overwhelmed by the bits that aren't going as well as I'd like. And it's really all about 'I'm trying to be superhuman, and that's going to fail badly sometime', where if we set up things so they're more humane, and more sustainable, I'll be able to give *better* service without blowing myself out.

Ok. Now back to cleaning the house, which is the thing I have ignored all fall because I've been exhausted and unable to function at home because I was giving all that energy to work.
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« Reply #64: October 17, 2009, 11:34:48 pm »

Have you ever actually *been* a teacher?  I ask that in all seriousness.  You seem to have this vastly inflated set of expectations about teachers, that they should be superhuman robots whose lives never, ever effect their jobs, who have perfect recall of absolutely everything, and always deal with every parents' Precious Baby EXACTLY how the parents want them to.  Teaching is one of the most difficult, demanding jobs out there -- and in the US, they are SEVERELY underpaid.  

No I have not *been*  a teacher. Have you ever  *been* the parent of  a child that comes  home wound up tighter than a  ten dollar  bill because  the teacher  put  work on her desk she couldn't  do because  she  forgot the  child  couldn't  do it or the  teacher  yelled at her for  not having her  homework done  again when in fact the  homework sent  home was the wrong   work for  the  child?  Granted I understand that  teachers have other  children to deal with, the point  that I am trying to get across here is the  fact that  when teachers  make  mistakes or  forget  something  it's the parents that  have to  deal with the children at home, and  honestly  dealing with  the  same thing  night after night weekend after weekend gets really old  fast.
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« Reply #65: October 18, 2009, 01:02:00 am »

No I have not *been*  a teacher. Have you ever  *been* the parent of  a child that comes  home wound up tighter than a  ten dollar  bill because  the teacher  put  work on her desk she couldn't  do because  she  forgot the  child  couldn't  do it or the  teacher  yelled at her for  not having her  homework done  again when in fact the  homework sent  home was the wrong   work for  the  child?  Granted I understand that  teachers have other  children to deal with, the point  that I am trying to get across here is the  fact that  when teachers  make  mistakes or  forget  something  it's the parents that  have to  deal with the children at home, and  honestly  dealing with  the  same thing  night after night weekend after weekend gets really old  fast.

I am a parent of an 7 year old girl, and whilst I appreciate you point of view on this, I have to say that dealing with a child and their problems is just part of being a parent. If you don't want to deal with it, then maybe you should of thought about it before you had a child. If there is a problem with the child in relation to school, then the best way to deal with it is to talk to the teacher involved and resolve the issue like sensible, mature adults.

Teachers have to deal with the children all week, and in some respects, get to know the children in a way that parents don't see. I'm not saying that the teachers don't make mistakes sometimes, but there again, don't the parents make mistakes too? I know that I do...

You can't just pin all the problems that a child has onto the teachers. It doesn't work that way. You have to take responsibility for your own child.
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« Reply #66: October 18, 2009, 01:46:35 am »

I am a parent of an 7 year old girl, and whilst I appreciate you point of view on this, I have to say that dealing with a child and their problems is just part of being a parent. If you don't want to deal with it, then maybe you should of thought about it before you had a child. If there is a problem with the child in relation to school, then the best way to deal with it is to talk to the teacher involved and resolve the issue like sensible, mature adults.

Teachers have to deal with the children all week, and in some respects, get to know the children in a way that parents don't see. I'm not saying that the teachers don't make mistakes sometimes, but there again, don't the parents make mistakes too? I know that I do...

You can't just pin all the problems that a child has onto the teachers. It doesn't work that way. You have to take responsibility for your own child.

 Yes  dealing with a child   is part  of parenting but at the  same time  when a child  has numerous  problems  and  one of  them happens to  be OCD  it  makes dealing with the  child  harder, and when it starts to  become  a daily thing   coming  from mistakes  made at school every  day, it tends to get  old. 45 minutes of screaming an yelling   every  night after school because  of mistakes would  make  any parent  want to  pull their  hair  out.  I have talked to the  teacher  and she is  of the opinion that she  has done  nothing  wrong  sending  home  work that  this child  can not possibly  do  and  expecting it  be done.

My  child  has an I.E.P  that  was simply  not  being  followed until I went  over  and  made  a big  *stink* about it not  being followed. Personally I would  prefer  my  daughter to  be  in  a  classroom  with  other special needs  children, but alas  the school  feels she is  fine  in a main stream class even IF  she  can't do the work.  I'm not  pinning all  her  problems on  her teacher  just the ones  created  at  school by  the teacher, believe it or  not  simple things like  forgetting  that a  child  has an I.E.P  or a simple  mistake  of  sending  home the wrong work sends  my  child  into a downward spiral that I get to deal with at  home  over and above  everything  else  I have to  deal with in regards to her in the  home plus the  daily  problems  of  2 other  children.

 My oldest   daughter  does not seem to have  hardly any  issues  with  teachers, and if she does she seems to be able to handle them on her  own. My son  lucked out and got a teacher ( this year)  that  seems to understand that all children are different and  works well with  her  class, and  when he does come  home and  complains I  ask him  if he's  overreacting to  something  and  if I have to call his teacher? Normally   it's  him overreacting  to  something  little and I  don't  have to  call the  teacher and I tell him  he has  to  respect  her and  do as  he is told at school because if I have to  come over there  I'm  taking  his stuff away  from  him and  making  him do extra  work at home. It's  a nice change  form  last  year with him!

Maybe I'm just  not  coming across  the right  way, I'm only stating the  problems I  personally have come across with certain  teachers, I'm not saying all teachers are bad  or  do a bad  job. I AM saying  however that there are some that  really should rethink  their  line of work. As a parent it is my job to  deal with my  children and their  problems and sometimes  that  means  going to  the school and making a *stink*  about  they  way  my  child  is  treated at school because  I feel  it's not appropriate  for  my  child. I really  don't think that  makes me a bad  parent  just a concerned one.
 
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« Reply #67: October 18, 2009, 03:53:21 am »

Maybe I'm just  not  coming across  the right  way, I'm only stating the  problems I  personally have come across with certain  teachers, I'm not saying all teachers are bad  or  do a bad  job. I AM saying  however that there are some that  really should rethink  their  line of work. As a parent it is my job to  deal with my  children and their  problems and sometimes  that  means  going to  the school and making a *stink*  about  they  way  my  child  is  treated at school because  I feel  it's not appropriate  for  my  child. I really  don't think that  makes me a bad  parent  just a concerned one.
 

I never meant to insinuate that you are a bad parent. Like you I have a 'problem' child as we have just found out that her bad results at school stem from the fact that she cannot hear her teacher, but was too afraid to say anything in case the teacher shouted at her. We have now found out that, like me, she is partially deaf. I have now discussed this with her teacher and within a week her test results have improved dramatically.

 She is also a very over emotional child, mainly due to 2 things. 1: My parents moved out of the country when she was 3 years old and they only see her 2 or 3 times a year, which always makes her afraid that we are going to leave her too, and 2: I am registered disabled and have been for all of her life, so she has to deal with me being ill and in and out of hospital a great deal. We try to make things easier for her, and I never let her see how much pain I am actually in, but she is clever enough to know that something is very wrong with her mummy. Her school is also very aware of these facts and give her a little extra support when she needs it.

I know for a fact that she is very lucky with the teachers she has had in her primary school, as not many would understand, just as her nursery school didn't.
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« Reply #68: October 18, 2009, 11:45:31 am »

And I'm pretty sure my first post agreed with exactly that - but then pointed out some of the reasons districts might find single policies the only way they can cope with the number of students and teachers they have to deal with. ('Have', because it's generally a budget issue on both sides, not a 'hey, let's just not hire more teachers 'cause we feel like it' problem.)

Personally, I'm just starting to hear the "Hey, do you have Jimmy? Have you noticed X with him?" conversations between teachers... That's usually the sign where I work that teachers have gotten beyond getting everyone's name down...and are at the point where they've had enough assessments and interactions with an individual student to look at the specific needs in more detail.

Sorry, I'm behind the conversation. Jennett, thank you for taking the time to discuss this topic from the teacher's perspective.

The current discussion in general is straying into the classic (unfortunate) teacher vs. parent.

we aren't talking about the type of knife that the cub scout rules cover, we're talking a camping knife/fork/spoon.  This is something my kids have had pretty much since we started collecting camping gear. This is an eating utensil.  The article was clear enough about that.  This is a continuation of similar stories from other schools where a child brought a knife to cut their food with and got in trouble.

Nope, if you went to the cub scouts link, this rule includes swiss-army type eating utinsils. I just had to play devil's advocate, again, the media manipulates the public so blatantly, and only shows what they want to do so, not what the full story really was. I admit, I think BBC is a little better.

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« Reply #69: October 18, 2009, 11:46:53 am »

I never meant to insinuate that you are a bad parent. Like you I have a 'problem' child as we have just found out that her bad results at school stem from the fact that she cannot hear her teacher, but was too afraid to say anything in case the teacher shouted at her. We have now found out that, like me, she is partially deaf. I have now discussed this with her teacher and within a week her test results have improved dramatically.

OH, I  didn't think you were insinuating I was a bad parent. I  meant that  from the schools perspective. If going  over there and insisting  on certain things  like  I.E.P.'s are followed and  proper  homework is sent  home  makes  me a bad parent in their  eyes  well that's  ok all the more  power to them. What are they  going to  do  call  children's services on  me for  making sure  my  child  is  treated properly  in school?  That  would  be  priceless seeing as those are the  people I  call when I am not  exactly sure  what  I can  do  in some of these situations.

In your  daughter's case I would have to  question why she felt the teacher would shout at  her for  not  being able to hear her. Was it  just a misunderstanding  on your  daughter's part ( and I don't mean that in a  bad  way)  or  does the teacher  shout  a lot in class?  Last year I went on the assumption that  my  son was  misunderstanding  his teacher  about  screaming at the  all the  kids in his class  until the day I went over there and  seen it for  myself  and she had  me backed up against the wall screaming in my  face, because I asked my son to get  his  coat and  back pack  so we could leave  as I was  in a hurry  to get  to an appointment for  them.  I know sometimes  it  can get  noisy in a classroom and  a teacher will need to  shout to  gain control  but this  teacher was off the top, bending  over in  a child's  face screaming  at them  telling them they were not to be  dumb and do their  homework  at dismissal time, she had a few of them in tears.

Good  communication is the  key  to  dealing with  schools/teachers  when you have a  spacial needs child,  just sometimes  it  takes a lot of effort and a lot  of stress on the parents part to get to that point.
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« Reply #70: October 18, 2009, 01:27:32 pm »

What are they  going to  do  call  children's services on  me for  making sure  my  child  is  treated properly  in school?  That  would  be  priceless seeing as those are the  people I  call when I am not  exactly sure  what  I can  do  in some of these situations.

I find that Children's Services are a resource a lot of parents overlook.  They are held out as a threat so often, especially to low-income families.  A friend of mine 'knew' there was something wrong with her child but didn't know where to turn to get him tested.  I suggested she call for advice but she was worried that because her husband worked at the casino they would question the fitness of her home. 

She had never thought of them as there for anything but negative actions.  (she did end up with a referral from his school, and it turned out that he was having a mental/emotional reaction to a physical problem.  Thyroid, maybe?  It worked out but I was really surprised she wouldn't call the people who were most likely to be able to put her in touch with the right people.

Both her doctor and her son's first teachers had dismissed her as overprotectve.  Sometimes you 'do' need to fight the experts. Cheesy

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« Reply #71: October 18, 2009, 02:17:08 pm »



  Sometimes you 'do' need to fight the experts. Cheesy

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« Reply #72: October 18, 2009, 02:27:50 pm »

I find that Children's Services are a resource a lot of parents overlook.  They are held out as a threat so often, especially to low-income families.
I wish it would be here that way too. It should. But in sad reality the funding of those processes do not always agree with each other. The resources to help and care are limited, but after a few very unfortunate incidents, Child Services are required (once again by bureaucratic rules that leave limited space for personal judgment) to act when they notice an emergency. This has more than once leading to children taken from home and even placed in juvenile facilities (!) without any possibility for treatment - even when everybody agreed five years earlier that some kind of treatment was necessary and everyone saw the shipwreck coming and nothing was done about it.

It's horrible, but at the moment I would not recommend someone with problems with their children to address Child Services in The Netherlands, but to try and find a decent private physician or psychologist and deal with it at home whenever possible. Because once set in motion, getting child services involved cannot be undone.

 
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« Reply #73: October 18, 2009, 03:27:26 pm »

Because once set in motion, getting child services involved cannot be undone.

Sure it  can  just ask  my  family  who tired 3 times to get them  to take  my  kids, once  they told them I had  a  grow op in my basement, I didn't  have  basement  NOR  do I smoke  pot, the second time  because I would not take my  children camping  and I think the third  time I think they thought would be the charm so they made  up some  really  crazy stuff, BUT that's whole  other  story  for a whole  new thread.
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« Reply #74: October 18, 2009, 03:43:58 pm »

Sure it  can  just ask  my  family  who tired 3 times to get them  to take  my  kids, once  they told them I had  a  grow op in my basement, I didn't  have  basement  NOR  do I smoke  pot, the second time  because I would not take my  children camping  and I think the third  time I think they thought would be the charm so they made  up some  really  crazy stuff, BUT that's whole  other  story  for a whole  new thread.

er - Inca said specifically IN THE NETHERLANDS that's the case.  Not Canada.

Different country, different rules.
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