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Author Topic: Atheism does not exist or atheism redefined  (Read 44873 times)
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« Reply #15: October 19, 2009, 01:41:08 am »

Give me a person who does not worship something or someone and I will give you a vegetable. I am not talking about formal "get on your knees and pray" worship here. I am talking about the fact that actions speak louder than words and in my opinion (and to my knowledge the opinion of many others) what one puts forth the most energy to nuture, develop, please, or otherwise give attention is an object of one's worship.

Calling a tail a leg don't make it so.
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« Reply #16: October 19, 2009, 01:44:36 am »

Calling a tail a leg don't make it so.

(Well, it would if everyone else did too. But no one's doing that here. )
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« Reply #17: October 19, 2009, 06:41:38 am »

It is a simple fact that what you spend most of your time or energy on is that which you most value or worship

Excuse my French, but that is total bull.
Most people I know, spend most of their time and a lot of their energy at a work they neiter value nor worship, but because they have to.
(Real life, y'a know.)

You sure make some strange conclusions.
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« Reply #18: October 19, 2009, 07:02:48 am »

I also was not trying to say that she believes something she doesn't and I wasn't attempting to imply that about any atheist. It is not that everyone believes in a deity, it is that everyone worships or reveres something or someone.

Kasmira already touched on this, but since you didn't seem to address it:  The deity part is pretty central to the whole atheism concept, though.  If we're going with dictionary definitions (which aren't always helpful in discussions of personal belief--or lack thereof--anyway), let's look at the etymology.  A-, without; the-, theos, god.  Without god.  Not without worship.  

That's even if I agreed with your point about worshiping, which I don't particularly.  I'm not really that impressed with your reasoning that since the dictionary says A, B, and C about worship, obviously everyone worships.  It ignores the nuances that accompany actual usage of the word outside a dictionary context--which is exactly the problem with using dictionary definitions in discussions like this one.  "Worship" is a word used in a colloquial context as hyperbole to indicate high esteem for someone or something; that doesn't mean the colloquial context is applicable in a religious context, just as one example.  Not every definition is applicable in every context.

As an aside, I should warn you that this forum has a long and very bitter history when it comes to people attempting to tell others what they do and don't believe/practice/etc. and trying to force redefinition of religious labels contrary to the self-definition of some or all of those who use said labels.  It's more usually about defining paganism, but this thread is probably touching on a similar set of issues.  If the backlash you get seems a bit strong at any point, that's probably why.
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« Reply #19: October 19, 2009, 07:29:14 am »

For the sake of being perfectly clear I will begin by giving a few definitions according to the Random House unabridged English dictionary.

Dictionary definitions are DESCRIPTIVE of the many ways words are used today/have been used in the past. Each definition listed for a word is independent of any others. For example, the word "rest" is used to mean "taking a break" and "death" but where I say "I'm tired, I need to rest" I certainly do not mean I need to die.  You argument depends on taking a particular definition or definitions of words that favors your position and assuming that when others use those words, they intend them to mean the definitions you have selected. Such arguments may look very pretty on paper, but they show nothing about any reality beyond that paper.
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« Reply #20: October 19, 2009, 08:12:06 am »

Yes, it is my opinion and my belief that we all, without exception give honor and worship to something/one.

Yes, I am not using the conventional dedinition of formal worship. As I mentioned, this is not formal "get out you hymnal and sing it from a mountain top" worship. I am talking about the belied I have that the things or persons you most value and do or would be willing to sacrifice for is/are what you offer reverence and worship to. I might have been more clear I think. "Worship" succeeds "value," it is not interchangeable with it.


I have to agree with the others.  Bullhocky.  By that definition, I worship my children, my husband (ok, we're working on that one, but I don't think we're tallking the same definition of worship), my parents, my job (actually probably my paycheck), my women's group and a whole host of other things before we even get to the dieties.  And I'm not an atheist.
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« Reply #21: October 19, 2009, 08:48:05 am »

Flawed conclusion. I am not saying that the people who claim to be atheists do not exist, I am questioning their claim that they do not believe in or at least worship SOMETHING.

I also was not trying to say that she believes something she doesn't and I wasn't attempting to imply that about any atheist. It is not that everyone believes in a deity, it is that everyone worships or reveres something or someone.

I would LOVE to see the conversation where you try to convince my mother that she actually worships SOMETHING.

Please.  Let me watch.  It sounds greatly entertaining.
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« Reply #22: October 19, 2009, 08:59:44 am »

Excuse my French, but that is total bull.
Most people I know, spend most of their time and a lot of their energy at a work they neiter value nor worship, but because they have to.
(Real life, y'a know.)

You sure make some strange conclusions.
Simple, they worship their paycheck, not the job. In fact, this argument could also be used in my favor. You see, this is a perfect example of what I am saying, we all worhip something or someone whether or not we acknowledge.
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« Reply #23: October 19, 2009, 09:04:30 am »

Simple, they worship their paycheck, not the job. In fact, this argument could also be used in my favor. You see, this is a perfect example of what I am saying, we all worhip something or someone whether or not we acknowledge.

No, this is a perfect example of what is called in German 'ein Totschlagargument'.
This is an argument that is not necessarily true or logical but with which you can turn every counter-argument in your favor.

Such a 'discussion' is kinda boring and fruitless and so I leave it be.
You insist on the use of the word worship hardly anyone here agrees and you're happy about your flawless argumentation that follows this use of your definition. All right then, have fun.
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« Reply #24: October 19, 2009, 09:41:06 am »

Simple, they worship their paycheck, not the job. In fact, this argument could also be used in my favor. You see, this is a perfect example of what I am saying, we all worhip something or someone whether or not we acknowledge.

I do not worship my paycheck. I do, however, need one in order to have a place to live and so on.  HEck by your standards, we all worship food.
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« Reply #25: October 19, 2009, 09:42:40 am »

P.S. I am well aware of the existence and definition of connotative meanings in language. As such, I understand that connotatively, at least as understood by today's cultures, does exist. I still deny however that these "de facto" non-believers are denotatively atheists.

I do not find your argument very accurate or compelling, but others have commented on that. What I am curious about: why does it matter? Does it make any difference wether 'de-facto nonbelievers' are called atheists or not? In what way is it making things clearer or more meaningful to stretch the definition of 'worship' so much?
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« Reply #26: October 19, 2009, 09:47:13 am »

HEck by your standards, we all worship food.

Mmmh, might be true for chocolate and coffee?  Wink
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'You had to repay, good or bad. There was more than one type of obligation. Thatís what people never really understood.Ö.Things had to balance. You couldnít set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long. All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.' Terry Pratchett 'Lords and Ladies'

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« Reply #27: October 19, 2009, 10:26:17 am »

Simple, they worship their paycheck, not the job. In fact, this argument could also be used in my favor. You see, this is a perfect example of what I am saying, we all worhip something or someone whether or not we acknowledge.

I don't understand why you seem hung up about everyone 'worshipping' something. I think you referred in another thread to the Incredibles 'when everyone's super, no-one will be' argument. Similarly, if we accept your definition of 'worship' and everyone is 'worshipping', then it loses pretty much all meaning. So...why?
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« Reply #28: October 19, 2009, 10:51:58 am »

I do not worship my paycheck. I do, however, need one in order to have a place to live and so on.  HEck by your standards, we all worship food.
I thought that might be your response. You worship life. Yes, we all do worship food to some extent, I do agree with that.
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« Reply #29: October 19, 2009, 10:53:36 am »

I thought that might be your response. You worship life. Yes, we all do worship food to some extent, I do agree with that.

Wow.  Talk about stretching the word to mean nothing.

Do I worship oxygen, too?
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