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Author Topic: Atheism does not exist or atheism redefined  (Read 44872 times)
EverFool
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« Reply #390: October 22, 2009, 04:20:58 am »

I'm going to have to say I disagree with this statement. If I were to apply this thinking to a more concrete example it would fall apart.
Example:
I jumped off the roof with the intention of landing in the pool. I, unfortunately, miscalculated the distance to the pool and landed on the concrete pool deck thereby breaking my ankle and my leg. Now, because I did not intend to break any bones did I not, in reality, still break them?

It was your intention to jump off.  Had you not intended to jump off, you wouldn't have jumped off.  The jumping is the part comparable to worship.  I am not commenting in this thread on what the consequences of worship might be.


Quote
To give another more applicable example: It woukd be like me saying that because I did not intend to offend anyone no one was offended. This is obviously not true, as many people are, unfortunately, offended by what I am saying. 

But you certainly did intend to tell us all your opinions.  Which you did.

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Undoubtedly it detracts from the value of that worship, but does not indicate an absence thereof.

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« Reply #391: October 22, 2009, 06:03:47 am »


Sharon,

While I tend to agree with much of what you've said, and I appreciate the attempt to get people to debate reasonably, you're overstepping yourself.  When you start telling people how they should behave on this forum, and accusing them of name-calling...  that's moderator territory, and we ask that you leave the moderation to the moderators.

I know Darkhawk expressed similar sentiments earlier; I didn't say anything to her because her comments were much more focused on "this is not effective for this thread".  Your comments are more about what's acceptable behaviour on this forum, and that's why they're a problem.  Again, I appreciate the concern, but the appropriate thing to do here is to bring your concerns to the attention of the staff rather than to try to correct people in-thread.  You can PM or e-mail any of us (e-mail is the safer choice for most staff), or if there's a specific post that's a problem you can use the Report to Moderator link in the lower right-hand corner of the post.

Thanks.


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« Reply #392: October 22, 2009, 06:29:01 am »

Merits if I am wrong:
-Humans are the highest authority currently known and identified to us in the universe. This pro connects to my premise in that I am asserting that all people worship deity and therefore believe in gods. If this is false then we can, based on our current knowledge of the world make the claim mentioned above.


Except that whether or not gods exist is not the same as whether or not people believe in gods.  Humans may or may not be the 'highest authority' as you put it, but believing in gods does not make them exist any more than not believing makes them not exist.  Our status or lack thereof as highest evolved beings is not dependent on spirituality, any more than it is dependent on a belief in UFOs.  It is just an unknown variable.

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-We do not all worship something and are not tied to religious concepts or morals. This was nentioned earlier: religion and belief in deity are closely correlated to moral codes. This is, based on that, applicable to my premise that we all worship.

Chabas already addressed this.  Morals are not dependent on religion.


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-We as humans do not have to follow any moral code unless mandated by objective logic and need. If we do not all worship or believe in deity we are not compelled to follow a moral code of any kind unless other reasons are found.

Not all religions compel or even advocate specific morals.  Many, especially pagan ones, leave it up to the individual.  So one can believe in deity and still follow a moral code 'mandated by objective logic and need', just as an atheist can find a moral code of a particular religion to be good and follow the moral code without believing in the deity.  These are not either/or situations.

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-As the highest intellects we can claim eminent dominion over all other species on Earth. Intellect and prowess are indicators of reason and superiority. If we are the greatest minds based on the assumption that there are no divine beings.

So what?  I don't see how being smarter than monkeys gives us dominion over them, and if it does why would believing in deities change that?  Some deities expect their followers to take charge, some to live in harmony, some are mainly concerned with animals and some are strictly concerned with people.  And if there are no deities, well, some people want to take charge, some to live in harmony, etc.  Again, being theistic or atheistic does not determine out fitness or desire to have dominion.


Quote
-We are the only reasons behind our own actions and the helmsmen of our own fates. If my prises are wrong then there can be no reason given for our actions outside of our own justifications.
-We are the sole persons responsible for our own actions. If there are no deities worthy of worship we cannot say a more powerful being somehow inspire our thoughts and actions.

Again, so?  What's wrong with being responsible for ourselves, deity or no deity?
 
Quote
-We are at the mercy of our own intellect and cannot gain knowledge through anything but subjective observation. If there are no gods that we all worship then we have no higher authority or intellect to gain knowledge from.

Why do you think observation has to be subjective?  We build tools for observation that do not depend on the person using them - the atheist and the theist will get the same result from the tool.  I am highly suspicious of anyone who says 'this knowledge comes from god' and do not, again, find this a good argument that atheists are really closet theists.


Quote
-With our great intellect and logic we are endowed with the responsibility of overseeing the survival or death of the other species on Earth. If we are the highest beings on Earth we inherit the burden of our world's fate.

Is this supposed to be a pro or a con?  You seem to have an inflated idea of the importance of human brain functions.  If we bear 'the burden of our world's fate' then we don't get to chuck it just by acknowledging gods.  That doesn't even make sense.


Quote
-We are not bound by moral codes and though this gives us freedom it also imposes upon us the burden of determining what is and is not acceptable. Of we do not allow for the existence of gods we have no moral code to guide us.

I refer you back to Chabas' post.  People without gods are not automatically without morals.  And, incidentally, I don't share my god's morals.  Be thankful. Cheesy


Quote
-We cannot defer to the help of any but ourselves on any issue. We are our soul benefactors if my premises, and therefore my conclusion, are incorrect.

Actually, we can look to each other for help.  It's what community is for.  Religious wisdom is not automatically better than secular wisdom - wisdom is wisdom.

Quote
-We are solely responsible for our actions and thoughts. With no deities to site as motivations, we alone must claim full responsibility of our actions and their effects.

We are responsible for our own actions and thoughts anyway.  'God told me to' is not an excuse.  If nothing else, we are responsible for our decision to obey- and using gods to squirm out of being accountable for our actions and their effects, either positive or negative, is rather cowardly.

Quote
-As we do not all worship we do not neccessarily value things and people in a positive way. Self-explanatory conclusion. It does sort of imply a ratger pessimistic outlook.

We can't value things and people in a positive way if we don't worship?  Give yourself some credit - you might be a nice guy without a god telling you to be.  Whether people are nice or jerks has to do with whether people are nice or jerks, not whether they worship.  I realize you said 'necessarily', implying that people might still value things and people without having gods, but you forgot the corollary that some quite devout believers are still jerks who don't have a positive bone in their bodies.  Again, this does not depend on theism, and your self-explanatory conclusion is not reasonable. 


Quote
-We all worship something as deity and show our value for things in the world. Connection to my premise is self-explanatory.

Again, not self-explanatory, not reasonable.  Theists can be jerks just as easily as Atheists.  Some gods actually approve of and encourage jerkiness.


Quote
-We can, depending on our specific beliefs, choose to defer to a higher power for guidance. Assuming my premises and conclusion are correct, this is a distinctly related possibility.

Distinctly related to what?  If you start off by assuming that your premises and conclusions are correct you lose the ability to test them.  (and wind up with circular reasoning)  And we can defer to anyone whose wisdom we respect without making them a god.  Otherwise why would we go to doctors or mechanics or plumbers or therapists?  It doesn't have to be a higher power to deserve deference.  I defer to experts all the time, for entirely selfish and self - beneficial reasons.

Quote
-We have, at least to some degree, a moral code to serve as guidelines for our behavior. If a religious moral code is supplied by the naturebof our deities we no longerbhave to define our own guidelines.

As I said, I do not share my deity's morals.  I have no intention of giving up my autonomy, and consider defining my own guidelines to be a right, not something to avoid.

Quote
-We can, dependent upon our individual beliefs, appeal to deity/ies for aid or advanced knowledge. Self-explainatory in it's ties to my argument.

We can appeal to anybody at all for aid or advanced knowledge.  Again, not self-explanatory at all.  And if you're only talking about religious knowledge, well, somebody with no religion wouldn't need religious knowledge to begin with - and if they did, they could ask a theist for their opinion.


Quote
-We are not 100% responsible for 100% of our actions 100% of the time as they may be inspired by deity but this does not excuse wrong-doing. If a diety can inspire or possess us then this is also true.

What have you got against self responsibility?  And if you are going to give credit to your deities for your good acts why can't you give them credit for your bad ones too?  It seems a little unbalanced to me.


Quote
Demerits if I am right: all of these have self-explanatory connections to the premises I have supplied and the ultimate conclusion drawn from them. Never tge less, if clarifixation is needed, I woukd of course be happy to oblige.
-We are not the highest intellectually, spiritually, or even physically powerfull beings.
-We are not in complete control of our own fates.
-We are not in complete control of the fates of other species or our planet.
-We cannot claim sole dominion over any other species.
-We are tied to certain moral codes the specifics of which depend upon our personal beliefs.
-We are not neccesarily bound by logic as mystical arguments have validity.
-We are not 100% in control of 100% of our actions 100% of the time, depending on individual beliefs.
-The gods may or may not have a benevolent purpose for us.
-We are all subject to our reverence for divinity.

Not self-explanatory at all, unless you simply use deities as handy things to shove your responsibilities onto.  Unless you are the only person on the planet, and are omnipotent to boot, you are not in control of all these things anyway.  You seem to think that if you don't have deities in control then you must be in control - that does not follow.

Absent

Oh - about this 'self-explanatory if you refer to my premises and conclusions' bit - it sounds an awful lot like quoting the bible to 'prove' Christianity.  If your only support is in your original thesis then it is not support - you must go outside of scripture to prove scripture.  Otherwise I could prove the reality of Pooh by quoting Pooh.



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« Reply #393: October 22, 2009, 07:18:22 am »


Ok Star-fair point and I apologise. I was trying to state my own opinion and not try to speak for anyone else, but I have seemed to overstepped the mark- I'm sorry. I'll try to make sure that this doesn't happen again.
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« Reply #394: October 22, 2009, 08:22:50 am »

Oh - about this 'self-explanatory if you refer to my premises and conclusions' bit - it sounds an awful lot like quoting the bible to 'prove' Christianity.  If your only support is in your original thesis then it is not support - you must go outside of scripture to prove scripture.  Otherwise I could prove the reality of Pooh by quoting Pooh.

Excellent post overall. I agree with almost everything you said.  I'd like to expand a bit on this last point. Evidence used to prove a point needs to be convincing to those who are undecided on the point (and, if possible, to those who disagree with the position). Evidence that will only prove the position to those who have already accepted the position as likely to be correct isn't really useful to discussions with those who have not accepted the position.  Almost all of the points Lykos made and you addressed fall into this "points that reinforce the belief of those who already believe but will not convince those who do not" area.
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« Reply #395: October 22, 2009, 04:11:29 pm »

People without gods are not automatically without morals.  And, incidentally, I don't share my god's morals.  Be thankful. Cheesy

Hell, part of my job regarding one of my gods is to moderate and filter Him down so that people who aren't capable of dealing with the Cosmic Asshole straight-up can still get thumped upside the head when they need it.
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« Reply #396: October 22, 2009, 04:35:36 pm »

Hell, part of my job regarding one of my gods is to moderate and filter Him down so that people who aren't capable of dealing with the Cosmic Asshole straight-up can still get thumped upside the head when they need it.

Thankfully, I've never had to be a messenger or mediator for Old Dog.  I think I'd have to charge him a lot for it because it is so not the position I want to be in.

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« Reply #397: October 22, 2009, 06:08:46 pm »

Thankfully, I've never had to be a messenger or mediator for Old Dog.  I think I'd have to charge him a lot for it because it is so not the position I want to be in.

The negotiations for that particular gig were ... kind of complicated, heh.
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