The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
February 28, 2020, 04:27:26 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
February 28, 2020, 04:27:26 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Lying  (Read 8365 times)
Aster Breo
SIG Coordinator
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:January 29, 2013, 09:32:22 pm
United States United States

Religion: Feral Brighideach
TCN ID: Aster Breo
Posts: 5260


Avatar byJuni & Dania

Blog entries (0)


« Topic Start: October 26, 2009, 08:35:29 pm »

What does your path say about lying -- if anything?

Is honesty valued?  Why?

Do you believe lying is inherently bad?  Or does it depend on the situation and/or on the lie?

Is lying ever the right thing to do?
Logged

"The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."  ~ George Bernard Shaw

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
High Adept Member
****
Last Login:February 06, 2013, 08:12:28 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: free-flowing animist, Dudeist Priest
TCN ID: Absentminded
Posts: 2725


Blog entries (11)


« Reply #1: October 26, 2009, 09:39:44 pm »

What does your path say about lying -- if anything?


If we're talking lore and legends, it has a lot more to say about lying poorly or stupidly than about lying itself.

Quote
Is honesty valued?  Why?

True honesty is often valued, if it comes with integrity and honour rather than piety and careful precision.   Telling absolute truth is the ultimate lie in some of the tales, and trusting that just because something said is 'true' it is also 'complete' is a good way to get taken advantage of.  In some stories, as well, an honest person is just a naif or a foil, and a clever liar is the actual doer-of-good.
 
Quote
Do you believe lying is inherently bad?  Or does it depend on the situation and/or on the lie?

The second.  There are situations in which lying is just bad form and looked down on, but in most cases there is wiggle room.  An effective truth is best, but an effective lie is at least second best.  A truth that worsens a situation (in the long run - that is important) is bad, but a wasted lie is even worse.

Quote
Is lying ever the right thing to do?

Sometimes, but there is no absolute rule.  Lying without thought is usually worse than telling the truth without thought, but in both cases it is the 'without thought' that causes the problems.  There is no on/off constant setting, and getting in the habit of one or the other is somewhat lazy.  Both truth and lies can be pointless, and both can be useful.

Absent
Logged

"There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure."
- Jack E. Leonard

Blessed are the cracked, for it is they who let in the light.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

L Cohen
darashand
Adept Member
*****
*
*
Last Login:August 28, 2011, 11:46:42 am
United States United States

Religion: Celtic/Germanic Heathenry
TCN ID: darashand
Posts: 1222

Gravatar

Fate favors the Fearless.

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #2: October 26, 2009, 09:53:39 pm »

What does your path say about lying -- if anything?

Is honesty valued?  Why?

Do you believe lying is inherently bad?  Or does it depend on the situation and/or on the lie?

Is lying ever the right thing to do?

My personal view is that lying is necessary in some situations.  You absolutely must protect yourself and your family, if need be.  My path embraces Honstey and Truth, seeking truth and being honest about things is generally the best way to go.  I don't think lying is inherently bad, just not prefered unless in extreme cases. 
Logged

The only people for me are the mad ones. The ones who are mad to love, mad to talk, mad to be saved. The ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow Roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars." -Jack Kerouac
Adele
Master Member
****
Last Login:July 09, 2011, 07:27:54 pm
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic pagan
Posts: 475


Image courtesy of iconomicon

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #3: October 27, 2009, 01:04:11 am »

What does your path say about lying -- if anything?

My path prefers honesty.  To those who are close to me, to myself.

Is honesty valued?  Why?

Yes.  Because I needed to learn to be true to myself, about myself.  And be honest in my relationships.

Do you believe lying is inherently bad?  Or does it depend on the situation and/or on the lie?

Amazingly enough, no.  As an example, I've been honest in my work relationships.  Which turned out to be a big mistake.  I am now doing the best I can to just keep my job.

Is lying ever the right thing to do?

Well, in the work example above - it is now.  My patron doesn't believe I should lose my livelihood because the boss/es don't want to hear the truth.  I detest what I call "black" lies and have found it really hard to be in my work environment right now because of it.  ("Black" lies - those out-right, in-your-face lies.)  White lies don't faze me much.  I work in retail, white lies are part of the business.

And there's honest and there's brutal.  I refuse to be mean to someone to tell them the truth.  I've learned all kinds of new ways to phrase things so that I'm not offending people out of hand.

Unfortunately, I didn't take into account the fragile ego/s I was dealing with at work.  I expected the people in charge to be made of sterner stuff.  Live and learn.  Roll Eyes
Logged

"Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate."
       -John M. Ford, Making Light comment
Nehet
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 02, 2011, 12:07:16 am
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Polytheist
TCN ID: Nehet
Posts: 1479

Gravatar

Now 20% Cooler

Blog entries (11)

burning_tree
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #4: October 27, 2009, 01:39:50 am »

What does your path say about lying -- if anything?
Is honesty valued?  Why?
Do you believe lying is inherently bad?  Or does it depend on the situation and/or on the lie?

Is lying ever the right thing to do?



Hmm...

The 42 purifications in the Book of Going Forth By Day list, among other no-nos:  Lying, Confounding Truth, and being neglectful of truthful words.  Many Wisdom texts teach against lying.  The ultimate good in Kemeticism is Ma'at, which translates, (very loosely) as "truth".  The Blessed Dead, our venerated ancestors whose memory we honor and whose guidance we seek are referred to as "Ma'a Kheru", or "True of Voice." 

(scratches head)

Does anyone else get the impression that Kemeticism values truth and tends to frown on lies, just a little? 

 Wink

Kemeticism might be one of the few paths you'll see on this board where teachings about truth and lies are pretty damned obvious and don't really have a lot of wiggle room.  I haven't really seen anything that says "Well, sometimes we can lie...depends on the situation".  As always, I hope that if anyone knows of such a text off the top of their head they will point it out.

I think this emphasis on truth comes from the deeply held belief that words are powerful things.  A single sentence can uplift the speaker, and possibly their community, or tear them down.  The version of the 42 Purifications put out by the House of Netjer includes one that says "I do not damage myself with lies", and I actually like that.  Lying doesn't just hurt others, but it can render the speaker ineffective.  Sometimes, if one lies, one must build a structure of other lies around the original lie to defend it, and the cycle just perpetuates itself.  One can theoretically exhaust oneself that way (UPG and verified personal experience).  So, it's best to be truthful from the start.

I'm not saying that there are never, ever exceptions to this rule.   Most of the time, however, I do believe that most difficult situations are better resolved by being honest by trying to be empathetic with the person you're talking to and not being abrasive if it can be avoided. 

Of course, I am not a shining example of virtue and I have definitely made my share of mistakes!  But this is the ideal I strive to live up to. 
Logged
BGMarc
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:August 17, 2011, 09:57:32 pm
Australia Australia

Religion: Stoic (with declining druidic/wiccish hangovers and emergent Hellenic/Kemetic affiliations)
Posts: 1525


Blog entries (0)

Marc Larkin 6marc9
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #5: October 27, 2009, 02:48:44 am »



I don't think I've ever come across that expressed so well and clearly before. Thanks Smiley
Logged

"If Michelangelo had been straight, the Sistine Chapel would have been wallpapered" Robin Tyler

It's the saddest thing in the world when you can only feel big by making others feel small. - UPG

Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime. The sentence is death. There is no appeal and sentence is carried out automatically and without pity. Lazarus Long.

BGMarc at the Pub
Dark Midnight
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 05, 2011, 01:47:57 am
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Religious Crystal Witch and FlameKeeper
Posts: 3079


1 beautiful soul is worth a thousand pretty faces!

Blog entries (0)

Sharon-Anne Bateman


Ignore
« Reply #6: October 27, 2009, 03:51:57 am »


I prefer to tell the truth as much as possible, but there are times when that isn't possible. I apparently have a habit of brutal honesty, but my usual reply to that is 'if you don't want an honest opinion, don't ask me for one'.

However, saying that, I would never deliberately hurt someone with brutal honesty. Sometimes an 'Elven truth' is a better option, or at the least, some tact and diplomacy. (not really my forte, but I do try sometimes).

My religion is really based on 'do as ye will, but be prepared for the consequences of your actions'. So it is a case of how I prefer to be treated. I will always prefer to be told the truth-it hurts a lot less than finding out that you have been lied to.
Logged

Never forget that it is MY life, no-one else's!

"Payback? Yes, I think so!"

"I seem to exist in a very pretty slice of Hell- Hello? Is there anyone else here?"
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #7: October 27, 2009, 07:48:42 am »


Truth is important.  It's how we learn, it's what we base our worldview on.  If our world is built on lies, everything falls apart.

That said, there are times for lying.  If my family's safety is at stake, yeah, I'll say whatever I have to.  And *white lies* ... "yes, those colors look good together" when someone's got a FINISHED GARMENT they've hand-made, when the colors really don't work for me ... meh.  Though part of that is just perception anyway.

I do think there's virtue in honesty when it's less useful than lying.  And I ABSOLUTELY think honesty is important between friends.  As far as I'm concerned, if you are my friend, I'm going to be honest FIRST.  Because otherwise it's not friendship.

FlameKeeping's rather close to Kemeticism in some ways, and this is one.  We build our world when we speak.  Lies build a false world that can break and hurt everyone.

(plus, it requires a lot more memory.  Tell the truth and you never have to keep track of the details ....)
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
darashand
Adept Member
*****
*
*
Last Login:August 28, 2011, 11:46:42 am
United States United States

Religion: Celtic/Germanic Heathenry
TCN ID: darashand
Posts: 1222

Gravatar

Fate favors the Fearless.

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #8: October 27, 2009, 10:14:16 am »

That said, there are times for lying.  If my family's safety is at stake, yeah, I'll say whatever I have to.  And *white lies* ... "yes, those colors look good together" *snip*

See, I'm more in favor of not telling the little lies than the big lies.  People always say, "If you don't want the truth, don't ask Dara".  I think honesty in that sense is more positive because people have the tendency to kid themselves.  I'm not saying you should be mean and tactless, but honesty in opinion is valued.  Even at my job, customers will say, "Does this look good?" and I will tell them the truth.  If it doesn't, I try to steer them in the right direction, but I always say, "If you like it, then go for it."  People value my opinion because I'm honest and try not to flatter them with the little lies. 

And brutal honesty with oneself is how we grow.  Lying to yourself about certain things is a waste of time. 

But there is a balance...remember tact is best when approaching a delicate situation.


Logged

The only people for me are the mad ones. The ones who are mad to love, mad to talk, mad to be saved. The ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow Roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars." -Jack Kerouac
FierFlye
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:December 14, 2013, 06:14:57 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: FierFlye
Posts: 2392


Photo Credit: http://roothieb.blogspot.com/

Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #9: October 27, 2009, 11:06:31 am »

I think this emphasis on truth comes from the deeply held belief that words are powerful things.  ... Lying doesn't just hurt others, but it can render the speaker ineffective. 

I'm in agreement with Nehet.  Truth is a virtue of trustworthy, honorable characters.  The position of a truthful person is reliable, and therefore not questioned (although may be debated and disagreed with).  Liars speak valueless information, and eventually are ignored.

That is not to say that lying is never necessary.  But I don't think it's so much a matter of it being okay to lie.  It's a matter of sacrificing truth for something that is more important.  Keeping one's job, protecting one's family, and maintaining one's relationships is more important than being honorable and truthful. So lies do have to occasionally happen.
Logged

Spiritual Blog: Fier's Flame
Star
Message Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:January 12, 2013, 08:36:08 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Reconstructionist
TCN ID: star
Posts: 9033


Etcetera, Whatever

Blog entries (0)

ilaynay starcr
WWW
« Reply #10: October 27, 2009, 11:10:48 am »

That is not to say that lying is never necessary.  But I don't think it's so much a matter of it being okay to lie.  It's a matter of sacrificing truth for something that is more important.  Keeping one's job, protecting one's family, and maintaining one's relationships is more important than being honorable and truthful. So lies do have to occasionally happen.

This sounds similar to my general position, which runs something like this:  Sometimes lying is the lesser of two evils.  That doesn't mean it's a good thing to do; it just means that sometimes the alternative is worse.
Logged

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced."
-- Aart Van Der Leeuw

Main Blog:  Star's Journal of Random Thoughts
Religious Blog:  The Song and the Flame
I can also now be found on Goodreads.
Jenett
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:February 23, 2020, 06:56:44 pm
United States United States

Religion: Priestess in initiatory religious witchcraft tradition
Posts: 2506


Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #11: October 27, 2009, 01:22:22 pm »

What does your path say about lying -- if anything?
Is honesty valued?  Why?
Do you believe lying is inherently bad?  Or does it depend on the situation and/or on the lie?
Is lying ever the right thing to do?

I take the power of words really seriously, so I try to not say stuff that's not true.

However:
a) I'm imperfect

b) Sometimes the truth is complicated, and the simplest explanation is what someone needs (mostly at work) but is not quite true. (This happens a lot when dealing with the funds we get from the public school system that I administer, and wish I could get rid of, partly for the reason. I somehow don't think I can argue a religious requirement, though - I should note that this thing is not a core part of my job, but is in my job description because I'm the best of a bad set of choices to handle it.)

c) Plus this leaves a lot of room for not saying anything about [whatever] at all.

In general, I think lying is problematic. I think it's problematic because it puts the lie out into the world as a potential reality. I think it's problematic because it means accurate information or context isn't available. ('Not available at all' is better in my book than 'inaccurate'). And because, in a lot of settings, it has an impact on relationships.

This doesn't mean social slips by truth aren't sometimes appropriate - but I try to find ways to phrase them that remain true, rather than being lies. (And I try to *ask* stuff where people can be truthful, rather than telling me what they think I want to hear.)
Logged

Blog: Thoughts from a threshold: http://gleewood.org/threshold
Info for seekers: http://gleewood.org/seeking
Pagan books and resources: http://gleewood.org/books
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Staff
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:January 20, 2020, 08:24:45 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #12: October 27, 2009, 01:42:24 pm »

I think this emphasis on truth comes from the deeply held belief that words are powerful things.  A single sentence can uplift the speaker, and possibly their community, or tear them down.

Also, language is one of the tools of fundamental creation: it is how we build our universe.  If we build our universe on falsehood, it can fall apart if shoved wrong.  And Kemetic thought is all about not letting the universe fall apart into nonexistence.

When I have the need to mislead, I do so with partial truths. I think this is still kind of questionable in most interpretations of ma'at, honestly, but I'm far more comfortable with it than with straight-up lies.

Also, it works better if done well. ;P
Logged

treekisser
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:July 30, 2011, 05:18:30 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Bajoran
Posts: 1200


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #13: October 27, 2009, 01:50:13 pm »

Truth is important.  It's how we learn, it's what we base our worldview on. 

I think people who place a high premium on truth generally have a more realist idea of the world and its relation to words. I'm more inclined to the idea that reality is a lot further in our heads than usual (maybe because I don't get out of mine much  Grin), which is why I'm generally less opposed to lying.
Logged

'Whatever such a mind sees is a flower, and whatever such a mind dreams of is the moon.' - Basho
treekisser
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:July 30, 2011, 05:18:30 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Bajoran
Posts: 1200


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #14: October 27, 2009, 01:57:47 pm »

Also, language is one of the tools of fundamental creation: it is how we build our universe. 

This is somewhat related to Shadow's point, although not so much realist as positing reality as a shared assumption. I'm not sure it's shared all the time though, or even if we're sharing the exact same assumptions, which is why I'm more comfortable with the idea of language as a tool to build my universe.

Quote
And Kemetic thought is all about not letting the universe fall apart into nonexistence.

This is something which I keep running up against, but I have doubts about how applicable it is now. I get the impression that ma'at and order in general were focused on the Nisut, just as in other societies it was focused on other central authorities like the Church. But things have become a lot more decentralized and fragmented, and I have to wonder if there is a 'general ma'at' or whether we all have our own little postmodern orders to uphold.
Logged

'Whatever such a mind sees is a flower, and whatever such a mind dreams of is the moon.' - Basho

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Lying to your kids
Family Life
thain 8 2806 Last post August 25, 2009, 03:39:18 pm
by Astralis
Lying « 1 2 ... 7 8 »
Faith in Everyday Life
treekisser 111 18524 Last post February 06, 2010, 08:15:57 am
by RandallS
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.065 seconds with 57 queries.