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Author Topic: Cultivating Ancient Values in the Modern World  (Read 11969 times)
Shadowolf
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« Reply #15: November 10, 2009, 02:56:49 pm »

Or that today your wife might answer the insult herself, without requiring you to do anything except cheer her on.

Absent
  Quite true Marilyn,  I did have a girlfriend like that.   It was still my sense of honor that would support her because of my loyalty to her and my sense of justice because I felt she was right and I was honest (to myself) because I acted according to my convictions.   Turn that around and view ......ex;  loyalty as supporting a friend when you believe your friend is wrong just because you are friends.  It won't work because the oher values have not been taken into consideration.   
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« Reply #16: November 10, 2009, 03:52:04 pm »

  Quite true Marilyn,  I did have a girlfriend like that.   It was still my sense of honor that would support her because of my loyalty to her and my sense of justice because I felt she was right and I was honest (to myself) because I acted according to my convictions.   Turn that around and view ......ex;  loyalty as supporting a friend when you believe your friend is wrong just because you are friends.  It won't work because the oher values have not been taken into consideration.   

But do your honour and convictions include the necessity of knowing whether she wants you to respond on her behalf or not?  Or does an insult to your wife become transferred to you because she is 'yours', and therefore the insult is also yours to avenge?

What I am getting at here is that I can see honour automatically extending to protecting and acting on behalf of one's children, but I think it becomes trickier when you honour expands to cover or speak for another adult.

My husband and I have very different methods of conflict resolution - i would not appreciate him going with me to a doctor's appointment to 'straighten out' a problem I am having with that particular doctor, but he's tried.  It's not his job, and it is not a matter of honour for him to try to take my battles out of my hands without my, at minimum, specific request.

I am an adult have my own honour and my own methods of defending it.  I'm not with him for protection or care-taking, just love and companionship.

I can't really answer to your point about supporting a friend who is in the wrong.  I don't have a formula and just do or do not as the occasion arises.

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« Reply #17: November 10, 2009, 06:48:29 pm »

But do your honour and convictions include the necessity of knowing whether she wants you to respond on her behalf or not?  Or does an insult to your wife become transferred to you because she is 'yours', and therefore the insult is also yours to aveng

Absent
    I have no desire or sense of duty to fight a battle for anyone capable of doing it themselves. I don't use the word "my" as in ownership or an extension of myself, but to indicate someone in "my" life that I care about, as in "my" friend.  So, I could very comfortably sit back and watch someone defend their own honor.   However,  I do find rude and hurtfull behavior exremely offensive,  and when it is done in my presence, it does affect me personally.  ex:  A man yelled at a very young waitress in a coffee shop to the point that the girl was trembling and beginning to cry. I confronted the man and calmly but very firmly pointed out that his behavior was inacceptable in a place where several people were trying to enjoy a nice break and if he indeed was unhappy about his pastry (he said it was stale) that the problem could be remedied in a much nicer way.  The angry man ended up leaving.  Now, I don't put on my armor and go about on my white charger looking for maidens to rescue,  this was just a needless negative situation that affected myself and several people, and i was able to do something about it.                                                               
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« Reply #18: November 10, 2009, 07:22:56 pm »



I think I might put the waiter's situation under chivalry rather than honour, myself.  You felt sorry for someone being yelled at and responded in his defense.   I'm not sure if it  touched your honour, though, because it wasn't about you.  However, it was about someone you considered defenseless which could also touch on the honour thing.

Now I'm not sure.  Chivalry has a condescension about it that honour doesn't, and it doesn't sound like you were condescending to the waiter by your action, so maybe defending the (perceived) defenseless is more in the realm of honour.

These aren't my bigs, as far as virtues go, so I'm finding it a little confusing.

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« Reply #19: November 10, 2009, 10:36:09 pm »

I think I might put the waiter's situation under chivalry rather than honour, myself.  You felt sorry for someone being yelled at and responded in his defense.   I'm not sure if it  touched your honour, though, because it wasn't about you.  However, it was about someone you considered defenseless which could also touch on the honour thing.

Now I'm not sure.  Chivalry has a condescension about it that honour doesn't, and it doesn't sound like you were condescending to the waiter by your action, so maybe defending the (perceived) defenseless is more in the realm of honour.

These aren't my bigs, as far as virtues go, so I'm finding it a little confusing.

Absent
   You are really making me think, but my brain seems to be slow today !    To have honor,  I would say,  is to gain the respect of others by your actions and would mean having the qualities that would make you a good example for others in your society to follow.   What these qualities are depends on the period in history and the culture and I would say to some degree the individual making the assesment.   I tend to do what I feel is the "right" thing not for being considered honorable and often with the knowlege that it may very well not be in my own best interest.  Getting back to the example of the wife receiving an insult.   Let's say it was at a wedding reception.....  The best thing she or her husband could do might be to shrug it off completely  Surely they would be respected by any witness to the insult for holding their temper and avoiding an argument,  could that be considerd acting honorably ?
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« Reply #20: November 10, 2009, 11:15:23 pm »

The best thing she or her husband could do might be to shrug it off completely  Surely they would be respected by any witness to the insult for holding their temper and avoiding an argument,  could that be considerd acting honorably ?

Even if they were not respected for it that could still be the best/most honourable thing to do.  Reacting and causing a ruckus would be putting their own feelings of insult above the purpose of the day / happiness of the people the day was supposed to be about (i.e. the bride and groom).

Is respect-from-others an integral part of the concept of honour?  Is it not quite honour if it isn't recognized as such by bystanders?  Does having people see an honourable act as a venial one, through mistaken perceptions or not having all the facts or for whatever other rational, no-fault reason, diminish the, er... honourableness involved?

Is honour an interactive virtue, in other words.  Not historically - I am talking about the way the concept is expressed now, by individuals for whom it is an important aspect of their world-view.

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« Reply #21: November 10, 2009, 11:55:58 pm »

Is honour an interactive virtue, in other words.  Not historically - I am talking about the way the concept is expressed now, by individuals for whom it is an important aspect of their world-view.
Not for me - too often, public opinion rates the honorability or dishonorability of acts by how they support other values that I don't share (most often, values that, IMO, perpetuate injustice).  But then, I'm Chaotic Good (D&D alignments are often poor descriptors, but I'm one of the few it does work fairly well to describe), and well-accustomed to the Lawful just not getting how I determine my courses of action.

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« Reply #22: November 11, 2009, 08:40:21 am »



Is respect-from-others an integral part of the concept of honour?  Is it not quite honour if it isn't recognized as such by bystanders?  Does having people see an honourable act as a venial one, through mistaken perceptions or not having all the facts or for whatever other rational, no-fault reason, diminish the, er... honourableness involved?



Absent
  The definition of the word seems to envolve the recognition of others.  I see this not so much as applying to the particular act but as society establishing a standard that acts can be judged by.  So when I lost my wallet and the finder went through the trouble of mailing it back to me, it was still  an honorable act  Of course there is the possibility that they told their friends and family what they had done to gain recognition, I can't say.   I don't think that recognition is important and that the knowledge that you are following your personal code of ethics is enough reward.  The problem seems to be determining how one's code of ethics compare to what society considers honorable
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« Reply #23: November 11, 2009, 09:42:07 am »

Not for me - too often, public opinion rates the honorability or dishonorability of acts by how they support other values that I don't share (most often, values that, IMO, perpetuate injustice). 

Sunflower
  Very good point.  I was generalizing about society to avoid drifting away from the thread.  In a primitive communal society it would be easier to establish what actions work for the benefit of that society and what doesn't.   Today it's a lot more complicated and I have to question a lot of what society condones.   I am assuming that everyone has some code of personal ethics (clearly defined or not) but they certainly vary by individual.   So where doe that leave us in establishing anything that benefits society as a whole? 
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« Reply #24: November 11, 2009, 11:40:18 am »

  Very good point.  I was generalizing about society to avoid drifting away from the thread.  In a primitive communal society it would be easier to establish what actions work for the benefit of that society and what doesn't.   Today it's a lot more complicated and I have to question a lot of what society condones.   I am assuming that everyone has some code of personal ethics (clearly defined or not) but they certainly vary by individual.   So where doe that leave us in establishing anything that benefits society as a whole? 

Wouldn't that depend (at least partly) on whether it was for the    Greater Good   ?
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« Reply #25: November 11, 2009, 01:11:47 pm »

I think I might put the waiter's situation under chivalry rather than honour, myself.  You felt sorry for someone being yelled at and responded in his defense.   I'm not sure if it  touched your honour, though, because it wasn't about you.  However, it was about someone you considered defenseless which could also touch on the honour thing.

Now I'm not sure.  Chivalry has a condescension about it that honour doesn't, and it doesn't sound like you were condescending to the waiter by your action, so maybe defending the (perceived) defenseless is more in the realm of honour.

These aren't my bigs, as far as virtues go, so I'm finding it a little confusing.

Absent

as for the waitress thing, it was defending a person for whom the act of defending themselves would have been very costly, when for you, the cost was minimal.  Had the waitress defended herself, she very likely would have lost her job.  That could be chivalry or honor
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« Reply #26: November 11, 2009, 02:22:44 pm »

as for the waitress thing, it was defending a person for whom the act of defending themselves would have been very costly, when for you, the cost was minimal.  Had the waitress defended herself, she very likely would have lost her job.  That could be chivalry or honor
  To be truthfull,  I thought about the situation more after I had acted than before.   What I realized afterwards was that it also was not fair to the other customers to have to listen to a bully attack a young girl.   While they all had the oppurtunity to say something, they chose to do nothing, although a couple of them did personally thank me.
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« Reply #27: November 12, 2009, 11:31:13 am »

Honor
Justice
Honesty
Hospitality
Courage
Loyalty

So, I've been thinking about this, letting it simmer in the back of my mind, and I'm making some progress with it.  I'm thinking that honor would include things like:

1.  Keeping your word
2.  Not making false or impossible promises
3.  Defending those who cannot defend themselves (sliding a bit in the chivalry area)
4.  Being respectful and courteous to others (shifting into Hospitality somewhat)
...

I'm sure there's more, but I'll have to stew over the concept a little longer. Smiley

I would also suggest adding, piety as well.  I think we do owe a service to the Gods we love, in return for Their love for us.



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« Reply #28: November 12, 2009, 02:36:17 pm »

So, I've been thinking about this, letting it simmer in the back of my mind, and I'm making some progress with it.  I'm thinking that honor would include things like:

1.  Keeping your word
2.  Not making false or impossible promises
3.  Defending those who cannot defend themselves (sliding a bit in the chivalry area)
4.  Being respectful and courteous to others (shifting into Hospitality somewhat)
...

I'm sure there's more, but I'll have to stew over the concept a little longer. Smiley

I would also suggest adding, piety as well.  I think we do owe a service to the Gods we love, in return for Their love for us.




  Although my memory is vague,  I do remember a story about a Native American woman of some incredible old age who would be invited to sit with the war chiefs when they held a council for war.  Although women could hold high positions in most tribes, decissions about war were usually left entirely to men, except in her case because of the wisdom she acquired over the years.   So I would add Wisdom as it applies to ancient and modern times.     Dependability   would be another trait I would add.     Brains and ability are rather useless if the person can't be counted on to use them when needed.
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« Reply #29: November 18, 2009, 04:42:55 am »

Now I'm not sure.  Chivalry has a condescension about it that honour doesn't, and it doesn't sound like you were condescending to the waiter by your action, so maybe defending the (perceived) defenseless is more in the realm of honour.

Mmm, I disagree.  Chivalry is an extension of honour, or rather, a set of rules, and following them is considered to be honourable.  It is possible to be honourable without adhering strictly to chivalry, but one cannot be both chivalrous and dishonourable (unless you count faking chivalry, which isn't really chivalry anymore - if you're faking it, you probably have an ulterior motive).  Nowadays, chivalry has sort of blended with honour.

I agree, it can be condescending to someone to defend them when they didn't need defending, implying that they couldn't defend themselves.  But chivalry itself is not inherently more condescending than honour.  It's just that it gets trickier these days to determine who needs to be defended and who doesn't.  F'ex, a young child may not know what to do if someone is verbally attacking them, so stepping in to defend them is both chivalrous and honourable, but not very condescending.  The waitress was probably at a loss as to what to do, and therefore standing up for her wouldn't have been construed as condescending.  If the waitress had handled it calmly and firmly, however, then she would have been able to defend herself and applying chivalry in that manner would have been condescending.
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