The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
April 16, 2021, 09:26:01 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 16, 2021, 09:26:01 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Avatar 3D  (Read 14672 times)
KitsuneinDreams
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:June 10, 2010, 08:30:19 am
United States United States

Religion: Devotee of Minerva
Posts: 74


Nunc ades o coeptis, flava Minerva, meiss

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Topic Start: December 18, 2009, 01:19:26 pm »

I just saw the midnight release of this film and it is absolutely beautiful.
Sort of a cross between Ferngully and Dances with Wolves. I highly recommend everyone see it, you 'probably' won't be disappointed!
The 3D is very well done, not used as a gimic by having stuff fly at your face. Rather it is simply used to enhance the film. There were a couple times I actually had to lift the glasses up to see if it was still in 3D, they did an amazing job with it.
Logged


Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Altair
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:December 18, 2012, 06:59:40 am
United States United States

Religion: Wiccan-ish pantheistic polytheist
Posts: 1942


Follow your star wherever it may lead

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #1: December 18, 2009, 04:18:12 pm »

I just saw the midnight release of this film and it is absolutely beautiful.

Cool; I'm less than 2 hours away from seeing it myself, in IMAX 3D, and hope to be blown away.
Logged

Altair
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:December 18, 2012, 06:59:40 am
United States United States

Religion: Wiccan-ish pantheistic polytheist
Posts: 1942


Follow your star wherever it may lead

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #2: December 18, 2009, 11:19:12 pm »

I just saw the midnight release of this film and it is absolutely beautiful.
Sort of a cross between Ferngully and Dances with Wolves.

That it is. Visually spectacular (though I thought the use of 3D was mediocre), but a hackneyed story. It was very imaginative in some ways, but lacking in others. On the create-a-strange-world inventiveness scale, I found myself comparing it to the French film FANTASTIC PLANET, and despite that movie's more primitive animation, I found AVATAR lacking by comparison...but not terribly so.

The biggest problem for me was that I didn't emotionally connect with the movie. It might have been its failure to breathe new life into its tired old story components...it might have been its perfunctory approach to certain elements...or it might have been the inexpressiveness of the CGI faces (which for all their expressiveness, aren't even close to approximating a real human face). That meant this was a great thrill ride, but not much more.

For us nature-based pagans, the main theme is definitely up our alley; but it's presented in such a New Agey way, it felt a little cheap.

I don't think this is the motion picture game-changer it's touted (by some) to be.

NOTE: James Cameron *really* has a problem with big corporations, judging by AVATAR and ALIENS). And a thing for big robot suits.
Logged

KitsuneinDreams
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:June 10, 2010, 08:30:19 am
United States United States

Religion: Devotee of Minerva
Posts: 74


Nunc ades o coeptis, flava Minerva, meiss

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3: December 19, 2009, 06:17:54 am »

That it is. Visually spectacular (though I thought the use of 3D was mediocre), but a hackneyed story. It was very imaginative in some ways, but lacking in others. On the create-a-strange-world inventiveness scale, I found myself comparing it to the French film FANTASTIC PLANET, and despite that movie's more primitive animation, I found AVATAR lacking by comparison...but not terribly so.

The biggest problem for me was that I didn't emotionally connect with the movie. It might have been its failure to breathe new life into its tired old story components...it might have been its perfunctory approach to certain elements...or it might have been the inexpressiveness of the CGI faces (which for all their expressiveness, aren't even close to approximating a real human face). That meant this was a great thrill ride, but not much more.

For us nature-based pagans, the main theme is definitely up our alley; but it's presented in such a New Agey way, it felt a little cheap.

I don't think this is the motion picture game-changer it's touted (by some) to be.

NOTE: James Cameron *really* has a problem with big corporations, judging by AVATAR and ALIENS). And a thing for big robot suits.

And I disagree about the face capturing, as all the dialogue was done through face movement capture (or whatever you called it) and actually found the faces to be really expressive. I do sort of give you that the characters are hard to connect with. But I was able to do it with Jake and Neytiri (the female lead).

I also did not find the 3D lacking. It was subtle, and that's what I liked, it was used to enhance the story, but not be like "omg, wow, 3D, stuff is flying at my face". I've watched the trailers on TV and on the internet and the differences are easily notable. So far the movie is garnering good enthusiasm, but your point of not connecting to the characters and somewhat of a weak story (with some people not getting past the connections to past films) is what has dragged the movie down to its "better than average" rating (rotten tomatoes 82% as an example, but 95% rating from top critics).
Logged


RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #4: December 19, 2009, 08:18:43 am »

That it is. Visually spectacular (though I thought the use of 3D was mediocre), but a hackneyed story.

Sadly, I've never seen a movie that truly made good use of 3D. For all the trouble a 3D movie takes to make, you'd think that they'd make better use of it.

Quote
NOTE: James Cameron *really* has a problem with big corporations, judging by AVATAR and ALIENS).

A man after my own heart, obviously. Smiley
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
KitsuneinDreams
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:June 10, 2010, 08:30:19 am
United States United States

Religion: Devotee of Minerva
Posts: 74


Nunc ades o coeptis, flava Minerva, meiss

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #5: December 19, 2009, 08:54:44 am »



Just thought of a few more things. It is presented a bit new-agey, but I didn't find it that cheap. Truth be told I actually found it pretty interesting. I can't (and won't) post any spoilers here, but maybe I will send a message as to why, if anything it could be a good discussion between us.

I do agree with you that it isn't a motion picture game-changer, in some regards. I do think it has set the bar for special effects without question. But it is not the perfect all around movie like they touted it to be. I like the story, and I understand it. But like you say it isn't really the deepest of stories. I did find it emotional at times (grr, can't do spoilers, can't do spoilers) but overall, yeah, not the perfect end all be all story. So what we are waiting for is a movie with amazing special effects and a truly amazing story.

But I do still maintain it is one of the most beautiful things I have ever watched, with the realistic Na'vi people (giant 10 foot tall blue cat-like people) the backgrounds, the colors, and the action flowing so seamlessly that unless you really really analyzed it becomes photo-believable (but obviously not photo-real).
Logged


Nyktipolos
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:August 29, 2014, 09:54:53 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Path of the Nightwanderer (Polytheist)
Posts: 1581

Gravatar

"Language is like wine upon the lips."

Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #6: December 24, 2009, 04:00:47 pm »

But I do still maintain it is one of the most beautiful things I have ever watched, with the realistic Na'vi people (giant 10 foot tall blue cat-like people) the backgrounds, the colors, and the action flowing so seamlessly that unless you really really analyzed it becomes photo-believable (but obviously not photo-real).

I'm going to have to agree with you here. While the second time around I did have a few problems, the first time I saw it I was blown away.  Cheesy All I kept really saying was "it was beautiful".

As for the new-agey bits.. I agree, I can see it going that way. When I think about it, taken out of the context of the movie, it does raise my "neo-pagan alert! run!" hackles. But within the movie.. it just fit really beautifully. I didn't have a problem with it.

I'll also admit I haven't seen Ferngully in years and have never seen Dancing With Wolves.  Cheesy
Logged

The Night Wanderer's Path <3
“God didn’t promise days without pain, laughter without sorrow, sun without rain,
but He did promise strength for the day, comfort for the tears, and light for the way.”
EverFool
Board Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:September 16, 2011, 12:40:01 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: atheist
Posts: 2960


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #7: December 24, 2009, 05:30:17 pm »



Saw it the other day.  Quite pretty.  Rolled my eyes at all the 'noble savage' stuff.  Wondered how the spinning glowing lizards survived in that ecology.

By end of the film, was decidedly hoping that the humans would wipe out the blue people.
Logged

If anal prolapse teaches us anything, it's that it is what is inside that counts.
KitsuneinDreams
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:June 10, 2010, 08:30:19 am
United States United States

Religion: Devotee of Minerva
Posts: 74


Nunc ades o coeptis, flava Minerva, meiss

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8: December 25, 2009, 01:19:28 pm »

Saw it the other day.  Quite pretty.  Rolled my eyes at all the 'noble savage' stuff.  Wondered how the spinning glowing lizards survived in that ecology.

By end of the film, was decidedly hoping that the humans would wipe out the blue people.

Hoped the humans would wipe out the Na'vi? That's so sad  Cry
Apparently (according to a book about the fluff of the movie that I got) the spinning lizards use that to get away from the prey. They leap up and sort of "float/fly" away while the predator is distracted. Of course it didn't quite look like that in the film.
Logged


Mithril
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:October 08, 2011, 09:24:55 pm
France France

Religion: Witch
TCN ID: Mithril
Posts: 1010


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #9: December 29, 2009, 11:50:45 pm »

I'm surprised nobody has made a topic for Avatar yet, especially because of the pagan theme in it. What did you think of the effects? (other than just amazing). Did you think it was a pointless remaking of Pocahontas, or did you think that it had merit just as a piece of artwork alone? And did you see it in 2d or 3d?
Logged

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

"Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
~Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore
Melamphoros
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:March 28, 2015, 11:01:26 pm
United States United States

Religion: Informed Eclectic with Hellenic Overtones
TCN ID: Melamphoros
Posts: 13621


Kiss My Scythe

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #10: December 30, 2009, 12:05:23 am »

I'm surprised nobody has made a topic for Avatar yet, especially because of the pagan theme in it. What did you think of the effects? (other than just amazing). Did you think it was a pointless remaking of Pocahontas, or did you think that it had merit just as a piece of artwork alone? And did you see it in 2d or 3d?

We already have a discussion on this, so I'm going to merge the two.
Logged



Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog
Hyacinth Belle
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:December 03, 2011, 01:02:54 pm
United States United States

Religion: Heathen/Taoist
TCN ID: Hyacinth_Belle
Posts: 1217


Making my sun run...

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #11: December 30, 2009, 07:18:03 pm »

Sort of a cross between Ferngully and Dances with Wolves.
Fern Gully! Yes! The Dances with Wolves thing was obvious, but I knew it reminded me of some other movie, and that's it. lol.

I'm surprised nobody has made a topic for Avatar yet, especially because of the pagan theme in it. What did you think of the effects? (other than just amazing). Did you think it was a pointless remaking of Pocahontas, or did you think that it had merit just as a piece of artwork alone? And did you see it in 2d or 3d?
I don't know... the effects were amazing, true. But I didn't see it as a major improvement over LotR (I think it was the same company?), although Avatar is obviously much more involved with the effects. I thought Gollum was more impressive than the Na'vi.

POSSIBLE SPOILERS HERE? And the environment of Pandora was incredibly creative, but I wasn't crazy about the black-lights effect at night. It reminded me of on of those black velvet, psychedelic black light posters... which I'm not fond of, to say the least. But yes, it was "beautiful."

I greatly enjoyed the story. No, it's nothing groundbreaking, but a neat re-interpretation.

And I actually *really* liked the religion and spirituality that Cameron put into it. I wasn't really expecting that. Very cool, a great ending.

I saw it in 3D. It's the first movie I've seen in 3D. It was neat, but it's just not as smooth or defined as 2D to me. And I think it strained my eyes; I felt like I was squinting the whole time. Like my brain was trying to "fix" it back to 2D. lol. *shrug* I don't know. I could take or leave the 3D.
Logged

"She who stands on tiptoe / doesn't stand firm. / She who rushes ahead / doesn't go far. / She who tries to shine / dims her own light. / She who defines herself / can't know who she really is. / She who has power over others / can't empower herself. / She who clings to her work / will create nothing that endures. / If you want to accord with the Tao, / just do your job, then let go." ~ Tao Te Ching, chp. 24

"Silent and thoughtful a prince's son should be / and bold in fighting; / cheerful and merry every man should be / until he waits for death." ~ Havamal, stanza 15
Mithril
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:October 08, 2011, 09:24:55 pm
France France

Religion: Witch
TCN ID: Mithril
Posts: 1010


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #12: December 30, 2009, 08:02:00 pm »

We already have a discussion on this, so I'm going to merge the two.

Really? It must have been farther back than I looked. Sorry. Smiley
Logged

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

"Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
~Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore
FierFlye
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:December 14, 2013, 06:14:57 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: FierFlye
Posts: 2392


Photo Credit: http://roothieb.blogspot.com/

Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #13: December 30, 2009, 10:24:22 pm »

POSSIBLE SPOILERS HERE? I wasn't crazy about the black-lights effect at night. It reminded me of on of those black velvet, psychedelic black light posters... which I'm not fond of, to say the least. But yes, it was "beautiful."
Haha. I never thought of it that way.  I thought it was pretty neat.  Here on Earth there are algae in the ocean that phosphores like that when they sense movement.  So I thought it was cool to see on land.


Quote
I saw it in 3D. It's the first movie I've seen in 3D. It was neat, but it's just not as smooth or defined as 2D to me. And I think it strained my eyes; I felt like I was squinting the whole time. Like my brain was trying to "fix" it back to 2D. lol. *shrug* I don't know. I could take or leave the 3D.

I'd have to agree.  It was hard to focus on some things with the 3D.  And now that I think back, I can't really remember any parts where I thought that it enhanced the film.  I did find 3D enhancing in the movie "UP" though, so I suppose it depends on the movie.
Logged

Spiritual Blog: Fier's Flame
Lleu
Newbie
*
Last Login:January 18, 2010, 05:50:19 pm
Ukraine Ukraine

Religion: Pagan
Posts: 3

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #14: December 31, 2009, 09:54:58 pm »

Recently I’ve watched the “Avatar” movie. And I have to confess it had a great impact on me. Not because of the special effects or the actors, but because of the idea that was placed there, deep inside. I don’t have any intentions of enforcing you to see it as I saw it. But, maybe, the time is right to look at some things differently. I, myself, live in one of the former USSR countries. And while browsing through pagan or witchcraft-oriented web pages and sites, I was surprised by the similarity of the ways we all see, feel and experience the world. As many of you may be, I am proud to have a Teacher. She is a Priestess of the Great Mother and a very wise woman to listen to, believe me. She taught me how to see behind the ordinary and how to experience life in a broader way than it can be met by the eye. That is a reason why I want to share with you two of her recent posts, translated into English (please excuse me for any mistakes that could appear in text, English is not my native language). This is not an ad of her blog, that’s why there will be no hyperlink to it. I’m only hoping that you will read the text and listen to what it has to say to YOU.

About the art (December 23, 2009)
A long time ago bards and minstrels walked on roads of the land. From castle to castle, from one village to another, they carried news about neighbors or distant places, they gathered stories, the best of which were turned into songs. They sang about things that happened long ago or not long since.
Among them there were ordinary craftsmen, and there were Masters. Either of them had to uncover their instruments – in some places it were harps, in other it were lyres and psalteries. They did so in poor taverns and in nobleman’s houses. They’ve been in places, where everyone went silent, striving not to miss a single sound, as soon as fingers of the singer touched the strings. There were times when their songs were no more than a background to the loud feasts with its amusements. And there seemed, that It didn’t made any difference to them to whom to sing.
However, some time ago, but almost always and in every place where traveling singer appeared, even amongst the most roaring and drunken crowd, barely he touched the strings, at least one person straighten the back and lifted up the head. And the musician could even hear this person taking a deep breath, followed by as deep breath-out, and he saw in this person’s eyes the willingness to listen. And as long as there were those able to listen and to hear, the bards walked the roads. Even today they walk and sing somewhere. But in the greater part of the world the number of men grew bigger, and the voices of musicians started to get lost in noisiness of the crowds. And instead of the solitary singers, the troops of traveling actors, who performed on cities squares, started to appear. After that – the theaters. And again, the actors saw those in the crowd, who watched them in a special way, with straight back and their heads lifted up unconsciously, ready to listen. And for those people the actors played, bringing the message to them. But again the life was changing, making the number of street actors grow smaller, and the entrance to the theaters became not free anymore. Quantity of books, telling about the events of another places and times, multiplied. But not everyone was able to hear the message from the lifeless pages. And some time after, it became almost impossible to hear something in this flow of informational noise. Written words didn’t have a chance of replacing those old-time singers. And then the movies were born.
It is for a reason every nation had their gods of arts. The function of the art is to bring the message to everyone, who wants to hear it. And behind every talented creator there is a god’s force, and every work of art has its own message. It is not an entertainment, but our conversation with the World, with the Gods. And a dialogue of our own spirit with our human mind. Of course, not every rhythmical sound, not every movie and not every book is art. Progressively people long for amusement, not knowledge. And wishing for amusement only, only for it they search in the art. And even those who think of themselves as of art experts, do sharper their wit on details, trying to find mistakes and imperfections, faults and bad acting. But at distant times not every singer had a voice worth of opera, and their instrument were not always perfectly tuned. Those things were not of importance. You don’t need to pay attention to the technique or details to see and hear what is important, you need to be able to perceive. Try it! If you know that the creator of the artwork is talented, tune yourself in. Take a deep breath. Straighten your back, lift your head up, relax, open yourself in perception, and listen. And you will be surprised how someone’s mobile phone ringing, or people talking, sound of popcorn crunch or even a false note from the stage won’t disturb you anymore. If you will manage to do so, on the way back you won’t praise yourself with critique of the authors or performers, you will be whist. The wave of thoughts will carry you from the shore of the things you’ve just saw or heard – perceived – into the ocean of cognition. Cognition of Yourself, or perhaps the world… This would mean that you’ve heard the message – the one that is meant especially for you. That is the nature of art, and in this way it is under the aegis of Gods.

About the “Avatar” (December 29, 2009)
You need to watch it in IMAX and only in 3-D. In other words, you have to watch this movie from the inside. This movie has to be perceived. There is no reason to simply watch it. If just watching, you will see only the graphics, only the story, and you will find the things to critique and to make fun of.
But if you’ve SEEN the Pandora, visited it while viewing, then either you’ve carried away this world within you, in your memory, like a dream, like a longing for what’s REAL, or… I just don’t know what were the feelings of those people, who didn’t feel THERE like at home. The feelings of the children of human civilization, with its block buildings made of concrete and iron, are foreign to me. Maybe some of them felt defeat. But they are aliens on this planet also, on the Earth.
For eight or nine years, when I was walking through the forest, the wolf from that forest walked with me. I’ve met her the first summer after the year of buying the house. She was an adult, but still quiet young. She never approached me too close – we didn’t need that. But, when entering the woods I’ve always listened. And every time, for two, three of four times a year, I’ve felt her mind touching mine, and after that I saw her, behind the trees. And so we walked in parallel, interchanging glances, contacting only with our feelings. We both felt great because of that. Once I’ve found out, that the wolves have a sense of humor, that they know what is “funny” and can even laugh. And I was also laughing with her, when the young wolf, her puppy, approached me from the windwardly side – in a way, that I, a human, could feel its smell. In forest I am only afraid of humans. I beware of wild pigs and try to avoid a bear. But humans I’m afraid of.
There, in the forest, only one man excluding my own son is not an alien to the forest – the man from our village. All others are foreigners. And that was the thing that I felt there, in the movie, on Pandora. When Neytiri, after hearing Jakes words addressed to the Great Mother, said that the Mother doesn’t take a side with anyone, I’ve answered to her mentally: “No, girl, you’ve got it wrong. At times she does take a side with someone – with her own children, with her earth, with her World.” Going back from cinema I was in two worlds at the same time – here and there. And after that I felt that there are three of those worlds – the city, Pandora, and my Forest. And now I’m sitting behind my computer, in the city, and can hear my Forest. It is in winter sleep now, but when it will wake up in spring, I will go there, searching. Yes, I was perceiving what was shown to me, I’ve heard my Message. And now I have things to learn. Here on Earth, The Great Mother doesn’t speak through trees. Here she speaks through springs. Not without a reason at all times the water springs were considered to be sacred places of the Goddess. And not without a reason Christians are trying to baptize every spring or make it a holy well as quickly as possible (this practice is widely used by the Orthodox Church in Russia). But the Mother gives birth to so many springs, that the Christians will never manage to catch up. I feel that exactly there, in her springs and creeks lays the key to the Force of this World, to the unity with it. And I will search for such spring in my Forest.
Those, who are not the children of the cities, go see this movie in 3D, if you’ve watched it in 2D before that. Cameron filmed it this way for a reason, believe me. Visit this movie from the inside, hear it, perceive it. And after that, go to the springs to listen to the Great Mother. It is possible, that we will understand how to save our own World. For the first time, from the internet page, I speak to you not as Daene Sidhe, but in my main quality, as a High Priestess of the Great Mother. This film is initiated by Her.
Logged

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Avatar Helpers: Get a Custom Avatar Here « 1 2 ... 19 20 »
Board Questions, Suggestions, and Feedback
Beachglass 297 85397 Last post April 26, 2011, 03:26:52 am
by darashand
Tell Us About Your Avatar « 1 2 ... 5 6 »
Miscellaneous Religious Discussions
Altair 78 25778 Last post July 20, 2007, 01:32:17 pm
by Dania
Avatar ...
Board Questions, Suggestions, and Feedback
kkwalrus 4 2422 Last post December 21, 2007, 09:46:18 am
by kkwalrus
My avatar pic...
Test Board
Hyacinth Belle 8 4396 Last post December 09, 2008, 04:47:58 pm
by Hyacinth Belle
Your Name, Your Avatar, and Your Sig « 1 2 ... 5 6 »
Paganism For Beginners
MakaniAhi 89 22777 Last post February 27, 2009, 07:53:24 am
by Altair
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.073 seconds with 58 queries.