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Author Topic: The Holly and Oak Kings  (Read 1660 times)
Melamphoros
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« Topic Start: December 22, 2009, 12:56:38 am »

This is based on something that just came up in chat.

What are the origins of the Holly and Oak Kings?  Are they Celtic,originate within Wicca or none of the above?
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« Reply #1: December 22, 2009, 01:03:00 am »

This is based on something that just came up in chat.

What are the origins of the Holly and Oak Kings?  Are they Celtic,originate within Wicca or none of the above?

The first place I ever encountered them was Janet & Stewart Farrar's Witches Bible Complete.

I always had difficulty with the concept because, when I was a Wiccan, I was of the belief that the Goddess rules the waning year & the God rules the waxing year - and the Horned Lord was a singular God, not a dual or triple God. Even though I'm not a Wiccan anymore, and I'm not heavily into the Celtic deities, I still feel that way. Goddess from Summer Solstice to Yule, God from Yule to Summer Solstice, mainly because the God is equated to the Sun, and the Sun dies at Samhain and returns to the womb of the Mother until Yule - when He's born again... with the Holly/Oak King model, 'dies natalis Solis invictus' just doesn't have the same ring to it. 
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« Reply #2: December 22, 2009, 02:23:12 pm »

This is based on something that just came up in chat.

What are the origins of the Holly and Oak Kings?  Are they Celtic,originate within Wicca or none of the above?

I've read in several places, as well as having been told by someone that I know has a pretty good grasp on things that they originate from Robert Graves's The White Goddess and were then adopted by some Wiccans but I haven't really looked beyond that.
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« Reply #3: December 22, 2009, 03:03:35 pm »

What are the origins of the Holly and Oak Kings?  Are they Celtic,originate within Wicca or none of the above?

I believe that the Holly and Oak Kings are originally from British folklore/mythology, but that the majority of the extent myth involving them was put together by Graves (and if I recall correctly, he drew from Frazer). I'm not entirely positive, though.
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« Reply #4: December 22, 2009, 03:18:47 pm »

This is based on something that just came up in chat.

What are the origins of the Holly and Oak Kings?  Are they Celtic,originate within Wicca or none of the above?
They do exist in British folklore, as well as other seasonal veneration dramas(that'll you'll see touched on by Frazer and Graves) but in the sense we're talking here, were inventions of the Farrar's. It not really any secret, and something they've been open about, since they serve their purpose.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 03:21:40 pm by UlsterYank » Logged

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