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Author Topic: Dedications, Professions, Oaths, Oh My!  (Read 14857 times)
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« Reply #45: January 06, 2010, 12:05:04 pm »

With the exception of college, making big commitments is a no-no, since apparently we are in no way mature enough to make those sorts of decisions or follow through with them. Roll Eyes

And even college doesn't set anything in stone, really.  Sure, you choose your major which theoretically corresponds to your future career path...  But my mom's degree was in Elementary Ed and she's VP of Mortgage Lending at a bank now.  She didn't teach school for very long.  I knew someone else whose degree was Geology, but went on to be a computer programmer almost immediately after college.  Etc., etc.

I say screw 'em and trust your own conscience about making big commitments.  But I may be a little biased.  Grin
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« Reply #46: January 06, 2010, 12:07:06 pm »

I say screw 'em and trust your own conscience about making big commitments.  But I may be a little biased.  Grin

That's my thought, too. Cheesy But then, most of the people who give me that sort of crap went and made decisions that they hated, and stuck with them instead of making things better for themselves, so I take little stock in their opinion on general principle.
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« Reply #47: January 06, 2010, 01:31:17 pm »

I'm turning 30 (what? when did that happen?) in about a month, for reference.

And I'm turning 32 (similar "What?  Whoa" feeling) in about a month. :}

Quote
This may or may not be the best place to mention that when I got married, I was...  actually pretty much the age we're discussing here.  But I do think you've got a point.  It honestly didn't occur to me that I was marrying "young" at the time (outside of frustration over not being allowed champagne for the toasts because I wasn't legal yet), but since then I've gotten the feeling that there's a lot of societal pressure not to do anything that permanent at that age.  That could very well color how someone of that age sees something like marriage or a lifelong religious vow.

I got married first time at 22 (we've been together since I was sixteen) and felt kind of freakish, honestly, because that was "you're just out of college, how can you know what you're doing?!" age, culturally speaking.  (I mean, even though I dropped out of college three years before. Tongue )
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« Reply #48: January 06, 2010, 04:26:55 pm »

And yet, I suspect, from your idea of considering a binding pre-nup, that you do not expect that oath to be binding.

If that is the case, why bother?

I also suspect that I have some very old fashioned ideas about commitment. I had no fear of making my marriage vows, any more than making my craft vows, probably because it is my belief that:

1) there are NO perfect marriages, and I know there will be times I will have to work harder at it than others.

2) there is no perfect religious experience, and there will be times when I am closer to and more distanced from my gods.

I have often wondered if this is a generational thing. Is it more a young person thing? This idea that you can't make a concrete commitment to something because, gee, what if you made a mistake and something better comes along later?  And by this statement I mean the general YOU population, not you, anyone personally here.

You're right. It was my mistake to say we have considered it. The word has come up in conversation. We will not be drafting a prenup. We have already been through so many hardships together, I cannot imagine anything worse.

Also, we have both always agreed that divorce is not an option, or at least a very last resort. I am not forseeing any problems, but then she IS very beautiful and I AM rather plain. I think a lot of prenups are brought up by insecure men who are threatened by their future spouse. No, those aren't the only reasons for a pre-nuptial agreement, but their is an amount of fear involved.

It probably is a somewhat generational thing. However, I do think the currrent and previous generations probably share the fear of divorce. So many of us saw it tear up our own families or the families of those close to us. It is usually those raised under the conditions who fear something the most.

I think a lot of it is sort of a life insurance type thing. We do what we can to salvage all we can in the event that we succumb to a possibility that is highly probable. We are so wrapped up in insurance and lawsuits thatthe mindset spills over into our personal lives leading to contingency plans.
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« Reply #49: January 06, 2010, 05:09:30 pm »

I'm 23, for reference, and I definitely notice an expectation that I will "keep my options open".

With the exception of college, making big commitments is a no-no, since apparently we are in no way mature enough to make those sorts of decisions or follow through with them. Roll Eyes

That happened to me in high school, and it still happens to me know (particularly when the subject turns to my not having kids  Roll Eyes)

But now that I'm out of college, I've actually noticed the opposite now occurring to me: people are asking me what my "plans" are, where I'm going to "settle down", what am going to do with my "life."

I'm turning 23 in a few weeks, and college hasn't done very much for me at all. So these sorts of questions are a little upsetting, to say the least.
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« Reply #50: January 06, 2010, 06:22:09 pm »

I'm 23, for reference, and I definitely notice an expectation that I will "keep my options open". People frowned on the fact that I dated one guy for four years, because they thought I was committing myself too much too early. (And this was just dating- no talk of marriage or even moving in together.) With the exception of college, making big commitments is a no-no, since apparently we are in no way mature enough to make those sorts of decisions or follow through with them. Roll Eyes

Actually, keeping your options open is not really a bad thing if you are young, I agree. I never married until I was 28, and lived in sin for 6 years before that Smiley

Same same for my spiritual commiments, and my first degree initiation well well after my 35th birthday.

I seem to recall a Jewish train of thought that no one under 40 is even fit for serious spiritual study, as anyone younger than that is too occupied with the day to day distractions of life.

So perhaps I should change my question to be, even if you do not see making a long term or lifetime commitment to a religious path today, does your personal paradigm allow that it might happen some day? (again, this is the generalized YOU, not you personally Smiley )

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« Reply #51: January 06, 2010, 07:03:53 pm »

I'm 23, for reference, and I definitely notice an expectation that I will "keep my options open". People frowned on the fact that I dated one guy for four years, because they thought I was committing myself too much too early. (And this was just dating- no talk of marriage or even moving in together.) With the exception of college, making big commitments is a no-no, since apparently we are in no way mature enough to make those sorts of decisions or follow through with them. Roll Eyes
SAME HERE. This sound exactly like me, except I'm merely 21 now. My bf and I have been together all but 4 years, and it's been no picnic... but we love each other, we're best friends, and the only people either of us feel truly ourselves around. What is so wrong with that?! *scratch head*

But the real objection parents or anyone else have, in my case, is money. They would be pleased as punch if I had been dating someone from a rich family or someone going to school to be a doctor/lawyer all this time. Sounds kind of sick, but there you have it. I didn't grow up dirt poor or anything, but I did grow up with my parents divorced. And my mom always told me "It's as easy to love a rich man as a poor man" and "Love flies out the window when it comes to money."

But I severely digress. Angry
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« Reply #52: January 06, 2010, 07:09:24 pm »

I have often wondered if this is a generational thing. Is it more a young person thing? This idea that you can't make a concrete commitment to something because, gee, what if you made a mistake and something better comes along later?  And by this statement I mean the general YOU population, not you, anyone personally here.
Speaking for myself here, but I feel as though my mother's reservations about me making a relationship commitment is because she doesn't want to see me make the mistakes she made. Fair enough, but if I was going to do that I'd be married, living out of state, and almost pregnant by now.

But I'm in school, I pay my own way through it, and I'm smart, beautiful, and practical to a fault. That's the way she raised me, and she did almost too good a job.

I think it might be a generational thing somewhat. I fear "commitment" because I grew up learning to watch my back, to never get myself in a spot I'd be stuck in. Not really because something better might come along, but out of fear I would change my mind or not known enough going in. If that makes sense.
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« Reply #53: January 06, 2010, 07:14:01 pm »

Also, we have both always agreed that divorce is not an option, or at least a very last resort.
When is divorce taking casually, as a next-to-last resort? *scratch head*
Quote
I am not forseeing any problems, but then she IS very beautiful and I AM rather plain. I think a lot of prenups are brought up by insecure men who are threatened by their future spouse.
Is that why you spoke of a pre-nup? Trust me, looks have VERY little to do with it. My bf says similar things every once in a while, and I have to knock him out of it.

JMO, but everything you've said makes it sound as if you are incredibly apprehensive about this marriage.
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"She who stands on tiptoe / doesn't stand firm. / She who rushes ahead / doesn't go far. / She who tries to shine / dims her own light. / She who defines herself / can't know who she really is. / She who has power over others / can't empower herself. / She who clings to her work / will create nothing that endures. / If you want to accord with the Tao, / just do your job, then let go." ~ Tao Te Ching, chp. 24

"Silent and thoughtful a prince's son should be / and bold in fighting; / cheerful and merry every man should be / until he waits for death." ~ Havamal, stanza 15
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« Reply #54: January 06, 2010, 08:51:47 pm »

When is divorce taking casually, as a next-to-last resort? *scratch head*Is that why you spoke of a pre-nup? Trust me, looks have VERY little to do with it. My bf says similar things every once in a while, and I have to knock him out of it.

JMO, but everything you've said makes it sound as if you are incredibly apprehensive about this marriage.


Well, men do tend to put a lot of emphasis on physical attraction. This is something I am really trying to steer away from.

No, not apprehensive about THIS marriage, just about marriage in general. I am 100% certain that my fiance is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. I just think that marriage, as commonly understood, is sort of a broken or at least dreadfully damaged institution. It is not the commitment that bothers me in this instance, just the statistics tied to that words. Perhaps we should discuss a non-marriage situation like Gene Simmons and his girlfriend. That sort of a thong is a common law marriage anyway. I don't know. As you have seen in the other thread, labels really don't do much for me for the most part. I know how we feel for each other so it really doesn't matter if we are called married or not. She pretty much takes the same tact aside from the stereotypical female desire to be husband and wife.
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« Reply #55: January 06, 2010, 08:59:58 pm »

I say screw 'em and trust your own conscience about making big commitments.

That.

I got married at 20, and we just celebrated our 25th anniversary.

OTOH, my original college major was technical theater, I ended up with a BS in geology, and now I'm a non-practicing lawyer and child health policy advocate.

Marriage is for life (barring abuse or similar), but careers are for as long as they're still interesting.   Wink
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« Reply #56: January 06, 2010, 09:28:25 pm »

Well, men do tend to put a lot of emphasis on physical attraction. This is something I am really trying to steer away from.

No, not apprehensive about THIS marriage, just about marriage in general. I am 100% certain that my fiance is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. I just think that marriage, as commonly understood, is sort of a broken or at least dreadfully damaged institution. It is not the commitment that bothers me in this instance, just the statistics tied to that words. Perhaps we should discuss a non-marriage situation like Gene Simmons and his girlfriend. That sort of a thong is a common law marriage anyway. I don't know. As you have seen in the other thread, labels really don't do much for me for the most part. I know how we feel for each other so it really doesn't matter if we are called married or not. She pretty much takes the same tact aside from the stereotypical female desire to be husband and wife.

*shrug* there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

You BOTH gain protections from being married that you don't get from common law situations.

Look at it this way.  If you get married and split, there's a major hassle.

If you're NOT married and split - there's a major hassle AND no legal protections for your stuff.

I really hate the argument of the statistics.  It all depends on how you look at them - and being NOT married and living with the person is no better than a divorce, now is it?
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« Reply #57: January 06, 2010, 11:08:30 pm »

*shrug* there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

You BOTH gain protections from being married that you don't get from common law situations.

Look at it this way.  If you get married and split, there's a major hassle.

If you're NOT married and split - there's a major hassle AND no legal protections for your stuff.

I really hate the argument of the statistics.  It all depends on how you look at them - and being NOT married and living with the person is no better than a divorce, now is it?

I suppose this is true, all except for the very last part. Living with my fiancÚ and not being married is infinitely better than getting divorced. At least I am still with the one I love, no? I guess it's sort of the whole question of "is it better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all?"   
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« Reply #58: January 06, 2010, 11:12:14 pm »

You BOTH gain protections from being married that you don't get from common law situations.

That may depend on where you live.  Where I am there are no distinctions between a civil law marriage and a common law one except that you must register the dissolution of a civil marriage before embarking on a new one, and a common law marriage takes anywhere from three months to a year to 'officially' kick in, depending on when you start filing taxes as a couple.  All other protections, including insurance and survivor benefits, are the same.

My father's 51 year civil law marriage ended with my mother's death a couple of years ago, and my sister's 19 year common law marriage ended last summer with her husband's death.  Both my father and sister had the exact same process to go through  with the legalities of a spouse dying intestate (make a will, even if it is only an 'all to the other' simple one - it speeds things up) and had the exact same paperwork, customs, hurdles and headaches to contend with.

My brother, who has lived in the States for the past 15 years, thought there was a difference too and was trying to push me and my husband towards a civil contract - we find our oaths sufficient emotionally and are both protected by law in the day-to-day world.

Do marriage laws in the US vary from state to state, or is this difference between common and civil law a federal one?

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« Reply #59: January 07, 2010, 12:03:08 am »


I am pretty sure that marriage laws fall under state and local legislation. Almost any matters that involve licensing are state issues. Hence the reason the national
government will not, for the most part, touch gay marriage issues.
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