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Author Topic: It's the Big Step.  (Read 16053 times)
Nehet
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« Reply #30: January 10, 2010, 02:19:01 am »

Since I started learning about paganism, I always found KR very interesting. I had looked into all of the temples and decided that they weren't particularly for me (mostly since I felt that giving money to a temple seemed diametrically opposed to the original point of AE temples).

The only temple I've had any involvement with is the House of Netjer, and they've never asked me for a dime.   They don't even charge for classes.  I think religious teachers have every right to charge for classes, just like the rest of us have the right to get paid for the work we do.  At the same time, I admire that HoN offers the classes without expecting financial gain in return.  Of course, they accept donations.  Here's why. You can see that Tamara Suida isn't exactly rolling around in money.   






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Nehet
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« Reply #31: January 10, 2010, 02:20:51 am »

In ancient Egypt, however, the larger temples stayed open because of the good will of the Pharaoh. Their offerings tended toward the food, flowers, slaves, and livestock bounty as opposed to adding to their financial status.

Personally, I'd rather see a temple ask me for money than slaves  Undecided
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« Reply #32: January 10, 2010, 08:34:44 am »

Probably because coin money was not introduced in Egypt until the second half of the first millenium BCE.  Before that they had a trade and barter system in place.

Actually temples played a notable role in the economy.  Temple landholdings, storehouses, workshops, and transport ships were part of the state system.  Temple personnel grew food on these landholdings, and sometimes a parcel of temple land would be given to a soldier or worker in exchange for a fixed percentage of the yield.
I didn't know they gave property in exchange for percentages. That's interesting. Was this an all throughout the reign of ancient Egypt or during a specific period in time?

If you don't think priests should be paid for their services, how do you expect them to live?
Call me weird, but I was always a huge fan of priests devoting their lives to service and people caring for them. I don't know if you know but tutors used to do this in the fifteenth/sixteenth centuries. They would travel from place to place and people would put them up in exchange for teaching their child? I think it should be similar in spiritual matters. I'm probably weird, huh?  Cheesy
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« Reply #33: January 10, 2010, 08:41:13 am »

The only temple I've had any involvement with is the House of Netjer, and they've never asked me for a dime.   They don't even charge for classes.  I think religious teachers have every right to charge for classes, just like the rest of us have the right to get paid for the work we do.  At the same time, I admire that HoN offers the classes without expecting financial gain in return.  Of course, they accept donations.  Here's why. You can see that Tamara Suida isn't exactly rolling around in money.   
I thought HoN was one of the ones that I needed to buy something for or give money to... I don't know. I thought it was a financial reason as to why I rejected it. Let me think back... I know that's why I rejected the Kerry Wisner temple because I didn't have the money necessary for the classes and my ex-husband steadfastly refused to let me purchase his books. The House of Netjer... That's right! It was the Pharaoh thing that bothered me.

Personally, I'd rather see a temple ask me for money than slaves  Undecided
Ah, but in that regard... If you were living in ancient Egypt on the same level of society that you are now, would you have slaves to give to the temple? I can attest that, personally, I would be lucky to have anything to offer to the gods.   Sad
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« Reply #34: January 10, 2010, 12:27:09 pm »

The only temple I've had any involvement with is the House of Netjer, and they've never asked me for a dime.   They don't even charge for classes.  I think religious teachers have every right to charge for classes, just like the rest of us have the right to get paid for the work we do.  At the same time, I admire that HoN offers the classes without expecting financial gain in return.  Of course, they accept donations.  Here's why. You can see that Tamara Suida isn't exactly rolling around in money.   
I thought that they charged for IKOS classes, and for RPD services? Or am I mistaken on this?
I agree that I priest should have the right to charge for their services. Unfortunately, religious practices (for non-Christian based religions) can no longer be supported by it's people or the gov't very readily. Most people I know that "moonlight" as a priest, have to have a day job to make the ends meet.

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Nehet
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« Reply #35: January 10, 2010, 01:26:33 pm »

I thought that they charged for IKOS classes, and for RPD services? Or am I mistaken on this?

I can't speak to either of these things as I have not used either of these services (nor do I plan to).  I didn't think they charged for divination.  I don't know if they charge for the seminary but I think they would be in their rights to do so. 

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« Reply #36: January 10, 2010, 01:32:23 pm »

Call me weird, but I was always a huge fan of priests devoting their lives to service and people caring for them.

Actually, I am 100% in agreement with you.

That's what donations are for.  Where do you think Rev. Suida's stipend comes from?

I have been to Pagan rituals where there is a fee to get in.  I am bothered by this, but many Pagan priest(esses) are in a position where they have to rent a space for ritual because they do not have an established temple that is supported by the community.  I would love to see some Pagans get more organized so that kind of thing could eventually happen.  That way donations would be voluntary and nobody would be turned away because of an inability to pay.

I feel differently about being charged for classes.  If you go to college, you pay tuition. 

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« Reply #37: January 10, 2010, 03:54:20 pm »

Call me weird, but I was always a huge fan of priests devoting their lives to service and people caring for them. I don't know if you know but tutors used to do this in the fifteenth/sixteenth centuries. They would travel from place to place and people would put them up in exchange for teaching their child? I think it should be similar in spiritual matters. I'm probably weird, huh?  Cheesy

Isn't that what money DOES, though?

I mean, if I'm relying on other people for my well-being, does it REALLY matter if they pay me in dollar bills, emeralds, or bread?  As long as, in the end, I've got enough to get my needs met .... I don't really see a difference here.

I can say I prefer the donation model over the required $$ model - for actual priest-services.  For classes .. well ..... I don't know.  Are we talking learning the religion classes, or are we talking priest classes?

And also - those tutors that went place to place often didn't have families and the like.  Are we going to say that if you want to be a priest, you can't have dependents?
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« Reply #38: January 10, 2010, 04:59:47 pm »

Call me weird, but I was always a huge fan of priests devoting their lives to service and people caring for them.

It may not be weird from a modern perspective, but I think it's ahistorical.

Historically speaking, a lot of priests in ancient Egypt were interested in the job because it was cushy.  While there were genuine examples of calling recorded, there's also the whole "I need to be sure my son gets my priest job when I retire so he's set for life" levels of things.  (I think I got my impression on this from Sauneron's The Priests of Ancient Egypt, which is a good overview of hwo the priesthood functioned back when.)


Me, I get a little pissy about giving money to temple organisations because in the ancient world, the temples were among the landholders; they offered jobs (such as the sharecropping gig mentioned above), supported their workers off their lands, helped protect against famine with their warehouses, served as the arm of the state government that did major wealth redistribution (possibly including taxation? but also moving resources around), etc.  I feel that giving money to modern temples is not merely a minor structural difference, but a theological difference, and I'm not comfortable with being solicited for donations without that difference being at minimum acknowledged by the temples.

(Paying for classes is a different matter; I have no objections to paying for classes, honestly.)
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« Reply #39: January 10, 2010, 09:57:00 pm »

Actually, I am 100% in agreement with you.

That's what donations are for.  Where do you think Rev. Suida's stipend comes from?

I have been to Pagan rituals where there is a fee to get in.  I am bothered by this, but many Pagan priest(esses) are in a position where they have to rent a space for ritual because they do not have an established temple that is supported by the community.  I would love to see some Pagans get more organized so that kind of thing could eventually happen.  That way donations would be voluntary and nobody would be turned away because of an inability to pay.

I feel differently about being charged for classes.  If you go to college, you pay tuition. 

I'll agree with you about classes because I see the point you're making. I (one day) plan on going back to college and that includes paying the tuition for said classes. However, I do wish it wasn't so incredibly expensive (college)! Too bad inflation happens...  Sad
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« Reply #40: January 10, 2010, 10:03:56 pm »

Isn't that what money DOES, though?

I mean, if I'm relying on other people for my well-being, does it REALLY matter if they pay me in dollar bills, emeralds, or bread?  As long as, in the end, I've got enough to get my needs met .... I don't really see a difference here.

I can say I prefer the donation model over the required $$ model - for actual priest-services.  For classes .. well ..... I don't know.  Are we talking learning the religion classes, or are we talking priest classes?

And also - those tutors that went place to place often didn't have families and the like.  Are we going to say that if you want to be a priest, you can't have dependents?

How about we're talking about both? What are your opinions on religion classes for a set price and what are your opinions on priest classes for a set price?

In later centuries, there were priests that were itinerant and had families. I would assume, however, due to the inconsistency of the lifestyle and the problem with stable home environments due to travel that this became a less-than-common thing. There were also priests who had a family set up in a homestead, but traveled when necessary. It was on food, board, and livestock that they subsisted. Again, the hardship of the man in the family being gone so often probably put this to the wayside.

In the time of the colonies, it was quite common for priests to be itinerant for one reason or another: One such example were Catholic priests in the English colonies. Since the religion was banned, although still heavily practiced by the widespread Scottish and Irish immigrants, the Catholic priests tended to travel far and wide across the states that required their services. In that case, dependents were, obviously, not a problem. In regards to Protestants and otherwise, I have no comment as I have no example to site.  Embarrassed

I will say that should someone wish to become an itinerant priest and their family members wish to travel, I don't think this should prove problematic in the overall scheme of things. Since bartering, either in currency or in goods, was the primary exchange for the service of religious instruction then one would assume enough goods or money was given to support the priest in question as well as some extra for family. This may not be the prime way of life for a family unit, but it has worked in the past and I think it could work in future. I guess you could say that I'm just a Utopian fantasist, I suppose.
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« Reply #41: January 10, 2010, 10:06:10 pm »

It may not be weird from a modern perspective, but I think it's ahistorical.

Historically speaking, a lot of priests in ancient Egypt were interested in the job because it was cushy.  While there were genuine examples of calling recorded, there's also the whole "I need to be sure my son gets my priest job when I retire so he's set for life" levels of things.  (I think I got my impression on this from Sauneron's The Priests of Ancient Egypt, which is a good overview of hwo the priesthood functioned back when.)


Me, I get a little pissy about giving money to temple organisations because in the ancient world, the temples were among the landholders; they offered jobs (such as the sharecropping gig mentioned above), supported their workers off their lands, helped protect against famine with their warehouses, served as the arm of the state government that did major wealth redistribution (possibly including taxation? but also moving resources around), etc.  I feel that giving money to modern temples is not merely a minor structural difference, but a theological difference, and I'm not comfortable with being solicited for donations without that difference being at minimum acknowledged by the temples.

(Paying for classes is a different matter; I have no objections to paying for classes, honestly.)
I can't comment on the priesthood entirely as I only know what I've gathered from my historical novels, which mostly stem from Middle Kingdom sources. I did, however, just buy that book on Amazon so, one day I can comment!

I think I may agree with your opinion about giving money to temple organizations. I never thought of it as being just a structural difference, but also a theological difference.
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« Reply #42: January 11, 2010, 12:34:02 am »

I didn't know they gave property in exchange for percentages. That's interesting. Was this an all throughout the reign of ancient Egypt or during a specific period in time?

I don't know, but the book I'm taking this from, "Temples of Ancient Egypt," does not differentiate, while they do differentiate between types of priests and terms of service depending on the time period.  I assume they would differentiate if it were not applicable to the entire history of ancient Egypt.

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Call me weird, but I was always a huge fan of priests devoting their lives to service and people caring for them. I don't know if you know but tutors used to do this in the fifteenth/sixteenth centuries. They would travel from place to place and people would put them up in exchange for teaching their child? I think it should be similar in spiritual matters. I'm probably weird, huh?  Cheesy

Well, I don't think it's weird, but probably not very realistic.  Not even Egyptian priests relied on the public.  The priests could make their "wage" (non-monetary) through working in the private sector as well, but most everyone relied on the state distribution system.  There is no modern system in place that mimics this, so it would not be realistic to think priests should rely a system that doesn't exist.
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« Reply #43: January 11, 2010, 07:35:20 am »

Well, I don't think it's weird, but probably not very realistic.

Oh, I know it's entirely unrealistic to believe that it could ever take place, especially in this day and age. It's a Utopian (to me) ideal and it is heartily impossible for any Utopian ideals to be put into actual practice in a world with living, breathing human beings. Enough of that, though. I agree: Not realistic at all.
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« Reply #44: January 11, 2010, 08:48:48 am »


I still want to know what the difference is between money-as-dollars and money-as-barter.

If I get food, shelter, and craft supplies (hey, a girl has needs!), does it really matter if I'm given the yarn directly or I'm given $100 and dropped off at a yarn store?
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