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Author Topic: What Is Magic(k)?  (Read 23826 times)
Kasmira
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« Reply #15: May 15, 2007, 04:18:28 pm »

My usual reply to such a question is, "When I see someone flying around or they throw lightning or a fireball at me, then I will believe."  I have 'witnessed' people who say they have seen the future or controlled the weather, but there was no indication that it actually happened.  The vague foretellings don't impress me.  They are either obvious (I could of come up with that without 'magic') or non-specific (gee, you were right I did meet someone, it only took 5 years for that fortune telling).  The weather control are just as funny.  It rained!  Just like the weatherman said it would, oh mighty one.

That is where the definition of magick is really important, I don't believe that flying/throwing-light-balls/controlling-the-weather is possible through magick or any other way. I do, however, believe in magick. To help this make sense you may want to look at my first post in this thread which explains my definition of magick.
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« Reply #16: May 15, 2007, 04:27:34 pm »

I guess I've just read too many sci-fi/fantasy novels.  I want big bang for my buck.  Smiley
Wind can be felt, measured, and seen by it's effect. 

Some would argue the same for magic, because they do see and feel it.  Our differences stem from our definitions of what magic is (which is what this thread is all about!).

Honestly, I'd much rather see healthy skepticism than blind faith any day. Fewer people have died as a result of someone's skepticism than someone's blind faith. I came from one Lutheran parent and one atheist parent, so I got the best (and worst) of both worlds.  That might explain why I ended up a pagan... LOL!

And there is no such thing as reading too many sci-fi/fantasy novels!  Grin
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« Reply #17: May 15, 2007, 05:06:56 pm »

How do you define "magic(k)"? 

Firstly, magic(k) begins with 'acknowledging' a personal need.  Once that need has been acknowledged, focus your energies on becoming more mindful, more aware, more in tune, of the energies, actions, coincidences and opportunites that occur around you ~ that relate to that need.  Recognise the 'pattern' in the chaos in order to find your intent.  Once you've discovered that pattern and realised your intent, project your energies into making that intent come to fruition.  Don't be afraid to take risks and act on your intuition.  The signals are there.  It's up to you to take advantage of them or not.  If you miss the pattern, and fail to act upon it, chances are, your magic(k) will fail.

The universe is constantly providing us with signals, cues and opportunities, but all too often, we either miss, don't recognise, or choose to ignore them.  There are those who do, and those who don't.  Those who do, gain success...everytime.

*Edited to add*  Magic is a natural [not supernatural] process, which either comes 'naturally', or can be learned.

Quote
As a side question, do you think it's at all related to prayer?

No.

Quote
 Are they similar?

I don't believe so.  To me, prayer is 'hoping' (relying on a deity to provide what you're asking for)...magic(k) is 'knowing' (knowing that you can provide for yourself...magically speaking).
 
Quote
The same thing?

No.  For the same reasons as stated above.

Quote
Totally separate? 

Yes.

Quote
Sometimes connected? 

Yes, sometimes...depending on your personal path.


IMHO Wink

« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 06:11:49 pm by Goth » Logged
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« Reply #18: May 15, 2007, 08:27:36 pm »


How do you define "magic(k)"? 

As a side question, do you think it's at all related to prayer?  Are they similar?  The same thing?  Totally separate?  Sometimes connected?  Something else I've forgotten?

I tend to liev by the definitions of Crowley and Arthur C Clarke -  Magick is the Sciance and Art of creating change in Conformity to Will - which I take to mean that acts of congruent Will resulting in change are magickal regrdless of the specific details involved. the other one is this "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from Magic" - the magic of yesterday is the science of today, the wacky out there stuff of today is tomorrows well, duh!

For me Prayer and magick are two very different things. Prayer is a reaching out to a higher presence, an asking for something that I feel that I don't have access to at the time of preying - alternatively it is a giving of thanks for fortunes that I don't feel directly resonsible for. Working magick, whether it is through elaborate ritual, through simple earth/low magick, or through changing my internal state, my attitudes and representations of the world, changing my mind... regardless of the form it takes it is when I put into action the cause of the change that I seek.

For example: " Goddess, help me to find work so  can pay my bills" might be a prayer. I taake little or no responsibilty for the outcome. it is very passive and more about seeking comfort and reassurance.

Magick to become the kind of person that is highly employable might includ a ritual to embody the right qualities by invoking aspects of a deity or archetype, it might be lighting a candle to focus my energies during interviews. It might bewearing a charm or amulet. It might be by examining the indset that had been preventing me from getting employemtn ad adressing the changes that I need to make internally to shift them. It is entirely about creating a change in ME not in the world, it is self intiated and relies on me taking responsibilty.

For me that is the difference. By these definitions I practice LOTS of magick of the mental (energetic?) variety ad scarecly pray at all.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 08:58:07 pm by Star, Reason: Fixing quote code » Logged
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« Reply #19: May 16, 2007, 11:49:09 am »

Prayer is a reaching out to a higher presence, an asking for something that I feel that I don't have access to at the time of preying -

I see a lot of you equating prayer with asking for god/dess' assistance or intervention, but I don't see it that way.  To me prayer is communicating with a deity, but you don't have to be asking for something in order to do it.  (after all you can call mom or dad to just say hello, you don't have to ask to borrow 20 bucks!)  Although I pray everyday, I very rarely ask for assistance.  The last time I prayed for intervention was 7 months ago when I had to turn my cats into the SPCA because hubby and I were moving in with his mother and she's allergic.  After performing spells to keep them safe and aid them in finding new homes, I prayed to the goddess for her aid as well.

On the other hand I, too, define magic as directing energy to manipulate circumstances towards a specific outcome.
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« Reply #20: May 16, 2007, 08:11:29 pm »

I see a lot of you equating prayer with asking for god/dess' assistance or intervention, but I don't see it that way.  To me prayer is communicating with a deity, but you don't have to be asking for something in order to do it.  (after all you can call mom or dad to just say hello, you don't have to ask to borrow 20 bucks!) 

Well, my apalling typing aside, I did include giving thanks in praying, not just asking for stuff Smiley I guess however that I am that person who only calls up to ask for favors or ot say thanks for last time as I don't pray to say hi, or to have any basic communcation with my deity of choice. I don't feel it necessary, as to me the communication is constant, both ways - the connection is always there. Prayer (for me) is a way of highlighting or formalising that communication - like a beautifully written thank you note. Good manners and all that. When I pray for a request the act of praying is for me to draw comfort, and to collect myself , to draw on my own strength through my percepetion of deity in order to gather my resources for magick. Like crying in the arms of a friend before pulling yourself together and getting on with what needs to be done.
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« Reply #21: May 16, 2007, 08:21:27 pm »

I see a lot of you equating prayer with asking for god/dess' assistance or intervention, but I don't see it that way. 

I think some of the "prayer=asking for stuff" language may just be the context of the thread.  Since it's about what magic is, people may be responding to my prayer question in the context of getting something done and not addressing the other kinds of prayer because they're not that relevant to what was asked.
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« Reply #22: May 16, 2007, 08:32:43 pm »

I think some of the "prayer=asking for stuff" language may just be the context of the thread.  Since it's about what magic is, people may be responding to my prayer question in the context of getting something done and not addressing the other kinds of prayer because they're not that relevant to what was asked.

Yeah, that's why I only mentioned that bit. Well actually, I kind of forgot to mention the second aspect of prayer but I think that was to do with the fact I was thinking in the context of the thread Embarrassed .
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« Reply #23: May 16, 2007, 08:34:46 pm »

I think some of the "prayer=asking for stuff" language may just be the context of the thread.  Since it's about what magic is, people may be responding to my prayer question in the context of getting something done and not addressing the other kinds of prayer because they're not that relevant to what was asked.

I have to say, speaking only for myself obviously, that Star hit the nail on the head - that was the context I was speaking from.

To me prayer is communicating with a deity, but you don't have to be asking for something in order to do it. 

I guess for me it would be formally communicating... not something I do very often.

I don't feel it necessary, as to me the communication is constant, both ways - the connection is always there. Prayer (for me) is a way of highlighting or formalising that communication - like a beautifully written thank you note.
What Mog said.

Magick is the Sciance and Art of creating change in Conformity to Will - which I take to mean that acts of congruent Will resulting in change are magickal regrdless of the specific details involved.

Pretty much... (hopefully I'll have time later to come back again - but on the plus, and OT, side, I have a lovely new bedroom! Yay me Smiley )
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« Reply #24: June 01, 2007, 05:01:36 pm »

Okay, I dont consider this magick, but foretelling could fall into this category.  I call it precognitive ability.  And this one is well documented, as I talked to several friends and relatives about it long before it happened.

I dreamed when I got pregnant the first time that I would have a little boy, then a little girl with something wrong with her.  I had a little boy, then while I was pregnant the second time, while scrying in a mirror, I saw her in the womb, but black (with my belief system, this indicated death).  I dreamed the name Amanda Leigh.  I named her Amanda Leigh, she was sick from Leigh's syndrome which is worse case scenario for our mitochondrial disorder (this I found out later, as it is extremely rare, and unknown by me at the time of the pregnancy).  She died.  Also, during the same time I saw her black  (as in a black, shadowy image, meaning death as I said before), I saw a healthy, red haired child.  Later, I met my second husband, and had my red haired child, my daughter  Smiley   Then, I dreamed I would have a little boy, and he would die.  He did, from the same disease as Amanda, a disease they thought was recessive, but turned out to be maternally transmitted.  At the time of his birth, I was told I would have one more.  I did.  I actually was on birth control.  It failed.  She too died.  No, I dont fly around.  Well a few oobe maybe Smiley  Anyway, these are instances in which I told several, several, several people before these things occurred.  And  I beg to differ that you could have just "naturally" come up with Leigh's syndrome after a dream where I was told to name her Amanda LEIGH, same spelling.   I might add that I was also told to name my first born David Daniel in a dream during my pregnancy.  I didnt get to, because of my first husband, but named him Joseph David instead, then during the csection, the doctor said you should name him David Daniel after me (His last name was Daniel!)  I have tons of things like these things happen to me, as a regular occurrence since I was three years old.  One MAJOR reason I became a witch!  To find answers as to why I could do these things, and do them so well......

Just wanted to say I dont want this to come across as confrontational, just stating that these things DO occur, even if you personally havent seen/felt or experienced foretelling either directly or second hand.   Just because I havent personally experienced growing bananas for instance, doesnt mean that it doesnt occur.  After all, I buy them in grocery stores! Smiley

My usual reply to such a question is, "When I see someone flying around or they throw lightning or a fireball at me, then I will believe."  I have 'witnessed' people who say they have seen the future or controlled the weather, but there was no indication that it actually happened.  The vague foretellings don't impress me.  They are either obvious (I could of come up with that without 'magic') or non-specific (gee, you were right I did meet someone, it only took 5 years for that fortune telling).  The weather control are just as funny.  It rained!  Just like the weatherman said it would, oh mighty one.

The reason I say I believe in magic is that I acknowledge there are things that can not be explained and magic seems the most apt answer.  However this would be more accurate if I say I believe in the supernatural.  I have never witnessed or heard from a credible witness any person actually perform magic.  I tend to believe that if someone was REALLY doing magic they would be keeping that secret since humans are unreliable animals and would probably turn on them.  If I could perform magic I wouldn't be broadcasting it.  Maybe the people on this forum (and others) are really performing magic, I've just never seen it and will remain skeptical until I do.
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« Reply #25: June 01, 2007, 05:21:18 pm »

The following defines for me the very foundation of magick.  Just wanted to share.

Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation) there is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, the providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamed would have come his way.

Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. ~ Goethe


I'm going to go a bit off topic here, but bear with me, I have a point.  Christian Science believes Jesus -- for the sake of argument we need to see Jesus as a real being -- did his miracles because he knew and understood the mind of God.  As a Pantheist, I do believe it is possible to work "magick" in much the same way as Jesus was reported to do, by understand what's behind the "reality" that I know and acknowledge.  I'm working on it!

As to prayer, I do pray to the God and Goddess and "ask"; but what I am really doing is putting my request "out there" by my desiring.  I do not see the G/G as deity or in the same light as the Christian God who says yea or nah to prayer, but as symbols of the essense and energy that runs through all that exists.  As a Pantheist, I believe all that exists is God manifest "in the flesh", so in that vein, all is possible in and through me as God incarnate.
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« Reply #26: June 01, 2007, 06:16:16 pm »

How do you define "magic(k)"? 

As a side question, do you think it's at all related to prayer?  Are they similar?  The same thing?  Totally separate?  Sometimes connected?  Something else I've forgotten?

I define magick as intensified prayer--specifically, in prayer I call upon the Gods/Goddesses as separate from myself (or the Universe, or The Force, etc) for help/communication/energy change/whatever; in magick I call upon my Godself, or Higher Self, The Force immanent within me, for help, etc. I do more work in magick, but basically both are calling on the Source--it's just a difference in where that Source lies--and both are about shaping energy--it's just dependent on who I ask.

I see it this way because the way I see the world/universe, there really is no God, or Divinity, or anything, that's separate from me or the rest of the world--the only Divinity is within, in our Godselves. But I also realize that that's too hard for me to grasp right now, so if I make it about the god/desses as separate from myself, when they're really not, but if I pretend they are, then it's easier for me to do magick or prayer, because I don't have the whole "it's on my shoulders!" thing going on.

I don't think I'm making any sense...it's hard to explain what I feel about it.
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« Reply #27: June 01, 2007, 06:39:24 pm »

I don't think I'm making any sense...it's hard to explain what I feel about it.

I think you made perfect sense.  I believe very much what you believe, if not exactly what you believe and have stated.  I just worded it a little differently. 

And I love the "duct tape".  ROTFLMAO!!
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« Reply #28: June 01, 2007, 07:17:57 pm »

And I love the "duct tape".  ROTFLMAO!!

Cheesy It kinda arose out of the type of theatre I was trained in, which I came to call "Duct Tape Theatre", which was severely low-budget---we had no dressing rooms, no costumier, no actual theatre. We just worked with what we had, and everyone had some duct tape in his/her bag, cause you would need it, if not for props or sets then for hemming costumes (or as emergency first aid)....

Sorry, random tangent. Wink
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« Reply #29: June 01, 2007, 07:49:35 pm »

I don't think I'm making any sense...it's hard to explain what I feel about it.

Morag that makes perfect sense to me Smiley  I think of magick and prayer as basically two forms of the same thing, a slightly different style, and whereas I do believe in Divinity, I believe we all have Divinity inside us as well.  Prayer can be more of a supplication, and magick seems more self directed, but really, they seem very similar to me.
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