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Author Topic: What Is Magic(k)?  (Read 23799 times)
V23
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« Reply #60: June 10, 2007, 06:25:31 pm »

I have to agree entirely with andy

And it is an Art form - It is adapted to situations and cases without end, and in ANY case where I would use my martial art I'm using it to make the other person STOP fighting me. Not to impress them.


Impressing anyone is not the point.  A tree's functon is to create O2 out of CO2, but to me when I was a child its function was my tree house, to hold up my tire swing, to be the place where I carved my love for my first girlfriend, and to be the place to give me shade and look up and wonder at the thousands of leaves billowing in the wind in a spirit filled moment.

Tell me . . .is Martial Arts function just to stop a person fighting you?
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« Reply #61: June 10, 2007, 07:13:07 pm »

Impressing anyone is not the point.  A tree's functon is to create O2 out of CO2, but to me when I was a child its function was my tree house, to hold up my tire swing, to be the place where I carved my love for my first girlfriend, and to be the place to give me shade and look up and wonder at the thousands of leaves billowing in the wind in a spirit filled moment.

I would argue that a tree's *function* is to be a tree.  You can't derive function for what it does for *you* .. function is what it *is*

Unless, of course, you believe the world was created and exists simply for the comfort of the humans.  Which I don't.
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« Reply #62: June 10, 2007, 07:25:58 pm »

I would argue that a tree's *function* is to be a tree.  You can't derive function for what it does for *you* .. function is what it *is*

Unless, of course, you believe the world was created and exists simply for the comfort of the humans.  Which I don't.

The function of anything is what it does for you.

That's one of the first laws of Magick.

A symbol is nothing more that an expression of paper and ink, by a person.  Its function is what the individual places in it.  The function for what I want a symbol to be and what you want a symbol to be can be two completely diffrent things and both be completely true, as long as the symbol functions within your context, (or paradigm).
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« Reply #63: June 10, 2007, 07:31:39 pm »

The function of anything is what it does for you.

That's one of the first laws of Magick.

That strikes me as a very dangerous viewpoint.  After all, if all that matters is *what it does for you*, you can get into a very sideways view of the universe.

Unless, of course, you recognize and accept that you are also just a symbol that *works for you* for someone else?
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« Reply #64: June 10, 2007, 07:49:25 pm »

That strikes me as a very dangerous viewpoint.  After all, if all that matters is *what it does for you*, you can get into a very sideways view of the universe.

Unless, of course, you recognize and accept that you are also just a symbol that *works for you* for someone else?

Hmmmm . . .let me put it this way.  A knife can be an athame or a steak knife.  Either way, if I picked up a person's ritual dagger and started sawing my ribeye with it, its gonna cause some immediate problems with the owner. 

And secondly, you forget the respect that a magickian needs to have in the symbol that he creates, and the symbols that others hold dear.  Obviously I dont invade others ritual space because it suits me, I respect them and their art.  And expect others to do the same. 

It all boils down to the understanding that, yes, everything that exists or ever did exist in the universe can be defined or at least labeled with a symbol.  And the functions of that symbol can be not only defined by the thing being named, but by the magickian who symbolizes it.
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« Reply #65: June 11, 2007, 03:53:59 am »

Tell me . . .is Martial Arts function just to stop a person fighting you?

yes

Other things that are benefits of martial arts (health benefits etc) are incidental. You learn to fight so you dont have to (very long).
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« Reply #66: June 11, 2007, 05:35:14 am »

Oh and by the way, the ENTIRE concept of color theory has its basis in Crowley's work in the same field.

Please elaborate on colour theory.  It hasn't come up once in my undergraduate or postgraduate degrees.  I can only assume it was a very old part of Psychology, because it doesn't appear to be 'current.'

As for Jung...  I'll try not to go into a rant.  It'd be off-topic anyway.  However, I don't recall any major associations of Tarot with Jung.

In my opinion modern Psychology owes more to the behavourists rather than people like Jung and Freud.
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« Reply #67: June 11, 2007, 05:38:32 am »


Tell me . . .is Martial Arts function just to stop a person fighting you?

I'm gonna agree with Steve here. Absolutely.  You can get other benefits out of practicing Martial Arts...but the entire purpose of it is to allow yourself to defend yourself against others.  I'd have to scan the relevant book to find the quote, but one author has a wonderful bit to say about martial arts...  Something along the lines of 'once they have attempted to attack you, your task should be to punish them for daring to lay a finger on you.'
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« Reply #68: June 11, 2007, 07:45:21 am »


How do you define "magic(k)"? 

As a side question, do you think it's at all related to prayer?  Are they similar?  The same thing?  Totally separate?  Sometimes connected?  Something else I've forgotten?

For me, I feel magic is the ability to impact the alter the course of events into a direction that you desire. Sometimes it takes a combination of mundane and focus/will; however, sometimes it can be done with will alone.

I do think prayer and magic are on under the same umbrella. I agree with Randal regarding the difference being that prayer calls upon other forces; however, I also think that sometimes individuals that think they are praying for the intercession of others could actually be doing the magic themselves and due to the intensity of their prayer, not realize it. I think miracles fall somewhere under this category as well.

I think that some individuals have a greater capacity for magic than others; however, I also think it is a skill that can be developed. Kind of like painting- you have to have a basic innate capacity and talent, but once there, it can be enhanced. I think some people, who are especially strong do a ton of magic throughout their lives and never even realize what they are doing. Others can buy three tons of crystals, candles and herbs and never impact anything. I think some of the ardent skeptics are probably people who have never been able to do anything.

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« Reply #69: June 11, 2007, 10:35:33 am »

I think some of the ardent skeptics are probably people who have never been able to do anything.

Sometimes I think it can be the opposite.  They are the ones that have the ability, and it frightens them half to death, so they spend their lives denying it vehemently.  I have a great aunt that is incredibly gifted psychically.  She is so  way out there, Christian religion wise, and soooo religious, so that she can have an excuse for what she does, because if it isnt from God, it is from the devil you know.   Roll Eyes

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« Reply #70: June 11, 2007, 12:12:13 pm »

Sometimes I think it can be the opposite.  They are the ones that have the ability, and it frightens them half to death, so they spend their lives denying it vehemently.  I have a great aunt that is incredibly gifted psychically.  She is so  way out there, Christian religion wise, and soooo religious, so that she can have an excuse for what she does, because if it isnt from God, it is from the devil you know.   Roll Eyes

Gina

Actually, I do agree on both counts. I think that there are skeptics who are skeptics because they either don't/can't do anything or never notice when they do. Maybe some are really afraid of themselves.

and

I also knew this one person who was amazingly psychic in a number of ways and yet (1) really seemed afraid of it because when I tried to discuss it he shut down completely and (2) despite his abilities, seemed to self-sabotage and never really used what he had in any capacity (looks, intelligence and psychic skills) to help him achieve anything long lasting.

In addition, my mother also uses her fundamentalist beliefs to excuse abhorent behavior.

So, I guess long story short, I think there are people who are magically gifted, acknowledge it and use it; people who simply don't have this talent and a third group who have it but suppress it for some reason.

Interesting discussion.
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« Reply #71: June 11, 2007, 09:41:01 pm »

Please elaborate on colour theory.  It hasn't come up once in my undergraduate or postgraduate degrees.  I can only assume it was a very old part of Psychology, because it doesn't appear to be 'current.'

As for Jung...  I'll try not to go into a rant.  It'd be off-topic anyway.  However, I don't recall any major associations of Tarot with Jung.

In my opinion modern Psychology owes more to the behavourists rather than people like Jung and Freud.

I'll try not to get to wordy here.  Color Theory is basicly the study of how colors in the enviorment of an individual can influence their moods.  It comes up alot in nonverbal communication, and a variety of other disciplines of psychology.  Crowley first pioneered it, in a sense, when he realized that color and shape had alot to do with setting the emotional mood of a performed ritual and he wrote extensivelly on it. 

Jung based alot of his studies in the psychology of religion and was specifically intrested in something he called "archtypes"  He claimed that the symbols in the Tarot was in all actuallity a set of archtypes that are universal at least culturally and theorized that they may be multi-cultural.  He did extensive work on this point and even created his own tarot spread and designed a set of archtypes for the purpose of observation.

As to whether or not modern psychology owes anything to Freud or Jung, I think that any student of the science woudn't even argue the point.

We do.
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« Reply #72: June 12, 2007, 03:41:32 am »

As to whether or not modern psychology owes anything to Freud or Jung, I think that any student of the science woudn't even argue the point.

We do.

As much as I loathe Freud, I have to agree with you on this point.
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« Reply #73: June 12, 2007, 04:36:02 am »



As to whether or not modern psychology owes anything to Freud or Jung, I think that any student of the science woudn't even argue the point.

We do.

I am a student of Psychology actually.  I didn't say that we owe nothing to Freud or Jung, much as I dislike them.  I just said that in my opinion, where Psychology is now, owes more to the behavourists.
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« Reply #74: June 12, 2007, 06:28:02 am »

As to whether or not modern psychology owes anything to Freud or Jung, I think that any student of the science woudn't even argue the point.

We do.

We also owe William James  and Watson and Pavlov and Skinner and all theorists who have made significant contributions to this field Wink

I am really disappointed that there are still professors of psychology that feel that it is appropriate to vilify Freud and then pass that on to their students. It really evidences their lack of understanding of the contributions that they made given the parameters of the time in which they lived.

Anyway, I am getting off topic. This thread is about magic and not the history of psychology.

I think a better direction would be to look at the history of magic. That probably goes back to the caveman in some form. Man seems to have a very innate need to control the environment and provide explanations for observations. That is probably the genesis of magic.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 06:45:35 am by Vanni » Logged

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