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Author Topic: Can a Person, by TC's Definition, Be Pagan and Follow the Teachings of Jesus?  (Read 27067 times)
Juni
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« Reply #60: January 17, 2010, 07:21:53 pm »


I know you're new here, so you wouldn't know, but this subject- Christianity, Christian holidays/beliefs/practices/whatever- being "really" pagan has been done to death. The fact is, whether or not anything in Christianity was originally pagan or not, it's not now. The people who hold those beliefs and engage in those practices are doing things that Christians have been doing for over a thousand years. I think that's enough time for them to have a good claim on it. It's not a matter of religious purity.
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« Reply #61: January 17, 2010, 07:28:57 pm »

The Nicene Creed is not accepted by all Christians, nor is it interpreted in the same way by all those who do accept it.

May I ask your credentials?  Your biographical material is thin - one book of fiction and a claim to have taught classes on 'the occult.'  The reason I ask is that you infer - in statements like the one above - some scholarly authority.

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« Reply #62: January 17, 2010, 08:53:10 pm »

I'm developing a nagging suspicion here. I suspect that some Pagans don't like the idea of a form of Christianity that's compatible with Paganism because part of their own self-image involves a rejection of Christianity. And of course, the reasons they reject Christianity are that "it is" X, Y, Z -- intolerant, narrow-minded, misogynistic, exclusivist, anti-intellectual -- whatever. It's true indeed that one can find examples of Christianity that are all of the above.

But one can also find examples of the faith that are none of them. And that, I think, may present a problem of cognitive dissonance for some, leading to the desire to define Christianity by its negatives.

Er...  No. 

My relationship with Christianity has been nothing but positive.  I left because it wasn't for me personally, but I have zero bitterness toward it.  I spend a lot of time around here reminding people that not all Christians are all those negative things, actually.  My daughter is being raised in the same church I was raised in, and I couldn't be happier with my (Christian) husband's decision to do that.  I know that in that church she will not be degraded for being a woman, nor for her choice of partners when she's old enough to decide such things.  I know that she will be taught critical thinking, respect for the earth, and tolerance toward those who are different from her.  I know that she will be taught that God loves her, not that he's looking for an excuse to punish her.  I cannot praise this congregation enough; it left me with a very good feeling about Christianity, all in all.  If I hadn't felt called elsewhere, I'd probably still be there, and be happy about it.

I have nothing against a form of Christianity that is compatible with paganism.  I am simply not convinced that it exists.  At this point the only support you've offered is Google (not always a very reliable resource) and your own word.  The idea flies in the face of everything I've ever known about Christianity--good, bad, or ugly, every form of it I'm familiar with requires exclusive worship of its god.  I therefore choose to believe my own experience and observations over an unsupported assertion on an Internet forum.

I do not seek to define Christianity by its negatives.  I seek to show it the respect I feel it deserves by defending what I understand to be its own self-definition.  If my understanding of that subject is in error, I'm afraid I'm going to need to see a little more support for what you're saying before I can correct myself.
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« Reply #63: January 17, 2010, 09:09:48 pm »

All Christianity has pagan elements in it -- small "p," from Roman times. Christianity in all its forms is a blend of Jewish, Greco-Roman, Celtic, Germanic, and more recently New Age and Neopagan elements, as well as borrowings from Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam.

Good evening, Skytoucher.

Would you expand on which elements of neo-paganism and Islam you believe have been incorporated into Christianity?
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« Reply #64: January 17, 2010, 09:27:26 pm »

It's really not up to us. If someone says that he or she is a Christian, then he or she is a Christian, whether they accept the Nicene Creed or not, whether they believe in the Bible or not, whether they consider theirs an exclusivist religion or not. And there are self-defined Christians who hold positions all across the spectrum on all of these things.
I see your point here that some people might say they are "Christian" when asked simply by default. Even though they don't go to church, don't pray before eating, don't read the Bible, etc. I don't think that's necessarily unique to Christianity, but perhaps it is more prevalent as the "common" religion.

So when you get down to it, if someone wants to combine Christianity and some type of Paganism, I guess that's their deal. Live and let live; it really doesn't effect me.

Quote
I'm developing a nagging suspicion here. I suspect that some Pagans don't like the idea of a form of Christianity that's compatible with Paganism because part of their own self-image involves a rejection of Christianity. And of course, the reasons they reject Christianity are that "it is" X, Y, Z -- intolerant, narrow-minded, misogynistic, exclusivist, anti-intellectual -- whatever. It's true indeed that one can find examples of Christianity that are all of the above.

But one can also find examples of the faith that are none of them. And that, I think, may present a problem of cognitive dissonance for some, leading to the desire to define Christianity by its negatives.
(emphasis mine) Are you not doing the same thing here (pigeon-holing Pagans like you claim some Pagans pigeon-hole Christians) by insinuating that "some Pagans" feel this way about Christianity? Sure, maybe some Pagans do. And maybe some atheists, or Jews, or whatever. As far as religious definitions go, "Pagan" is about as broad as you can get. So saying some Pagans feel that way reveals very little.

Not sure if that makes total sense, but hopefully you get my drift. And if any Pagan who feels that way about Christianity shows up here on TC, rest assured it does not stand unchallenged IME.
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« Reply #65: January 17, 2010, 09:48:06 pm »

That's pretty much what I was saying, hence the use of such a broad "definition" that it couldn't possibly exclude anyone who calls himself a "Christian."

But in could include a number of people who the majority of Christians would not consider Christian. And as i said, I stronger believe that the members of a religion get to define the parameters of the religion, including what is believed and who belongs.

Quote
But what do you do when a narrower definition, which does exclude some followers, is adhered to by some -- but not all -- of those who DO follow it? That's essentially what we have here, and I for one am not prepared to deny the title Christian to someone who calls himself that, merely because some fundamentalist disagrees.

Fundamentalist Christians are not a majority of the religion (not even in the US) so they don't get to define it either.  Fortunately, Christianity as a whole has defined it well for over 1500 years: the Nicene Creed.
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« Reply #66: January 24, 2010, 04:19:08 am »

Well haven't I just been sleeping on the job?  I came to TC a few months ago trying to sort out what aspects of paganism might fit into my Christian beliefs.  I'm sorry to be joining the conversation so late.  Consequently, I'm afraid this will be a rather long post.

Someone had mentioned credentials, so I'll just start by saying that I have a Bachelor of Theology degree from a Christian university, and have been raised by a fairly intellectual Christian family (my father has been in postgraduate theological studies most of my life).

Simply put, I believe the definition of "Christian" is someone who acknowledges Jesus as the Christ.  "Christ" (Greek) = "Messiah" (Hebrew) = "Anointed One" (English).  If you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the One Anointed by God to redeem the world, then you are in the most literal sense a Christian.  Of course, creeds such as the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed (google can give you the full text of these creeds) are more detailed and are in general a fairly good definition of orthodox Christian beliefs.  Just remember that these creeds came into being in the 4th century, and that there were a few centuries' worth of Christians before they were penned.  And of course, as has been pointed out, there is diversity in Christianity throughout space (geography) & time (history).  

I believe we are now moving into the development of a fifth Christianity. It's arising from the political situation of church-state separation, and from the increase in conversation among diverse faiths.

I will vouch for the basic content of Skytoucher's overview of Christian history, although I disagree somewhat with her prognosis for the fifth stage of Christianity (no need to derail the thread here, ask me later if you care).  I also can't help myself but point out the branch of Christianity in which I was raised, the Anabaptist tradition.  Anabaptism began during the reformation period, agreeing with many of the Protestant ideas (rejection of pope, rejection of Catholic corruption, an attempt to return to Biblically-based doctrine), but also disagreeing fundamentally with both Protestants and Catholics in that Anabaptists believed in separation of church and state, the "priesthood of all believers" and the rejection of church hierarchy, that baptism should be the choice of an adult believer who commits to a faithful lifestyle (orthopraxis) as being inseparable from one's beliefs (orthodoxy), and in most cases, that followers of Jesus ought to be nonviolent.  Anyway, all that just to add another layer of diversity to Christianity, and to stick up for my under-represented faith heritage  Smiley.

In my Bible class last semester, we discussed the commandment "Thou shall have no other gods before me." There's actually room for interpretation on this. Did God mean to tell Moses that he is the One True and Only God? Or just that Moses couldn't worship any of the other gods? Or that Moses couldn't put any of those gods before Yahweh? Yes, the majority of Christian interpretation on this is the One True and Only God, though personally I would argue that this is not the most important aspect of Christianity.

The Old Testament writings truly fascinate me, because I believe they tell the story of our God introducing him(her?)self to a given people and beginning a relationship with them, with the intention that this chosen people would then help introduce the entire world to God.  The fact is that when God introduced him/herself to this people, they were a polytheistic people.  In their minds, the existence of many gods was a given.  God speaks to these people within their worldview, taking baby steps in forming them into the people he/she wishes them to be.  It's a gradual process, otherwise God wouldn't have waited thousands of years to send Jesus.  I find this whole gradual thing fascinating, and I try to let it inform my own interaction with non-Christians.  Of course I deeply desire that all people would come to know Jesus Christ, but you can't simply drop the Christ-bomb on people and expect that they'll joyfully convert.  Everyone is on a path, and that must be respected.  Even God respects that, as we can see in his/her interactions with the early Hebrews.  I believe in the existence of only one God, and I believe that God gradually led his/her followers towards that realization, culminating in the earliest and simplest of all Christian creeds, "Jesus is Lord."  (The vast majority of Christians believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, are all one and the same God, so that's what's behind this statement.)

As for my own interest in paganism:  I personally believe that partial truth and insight about God can be found in most of the world's belief systems.  (I do also believe that the fullest revelation of truth is found in Jesus Christ, hence my being a Christian.)  Some pagan concepts that I find compatible with Christianity are various earth-based ideas, since I believe that God created the universe, and that perhaps some spark of Godself lives in every aspect of what God has created.  Many Christian denominations have lost sight of the Biblical teaching that at the end of all time Christ will return to earth and re-create it, and that Christ will live here on earth (or in this physical universe, anyway) with us for all eternity.  This is the true kingdom of God, and the whole notion that the earth is disposable because we're going to a fluffy cloudy heaven is bullshit.  Another pagan idea that I don't see any reason to oppose is the notion of energy and energy work either.  And before y'all jump all over me, I do realize that not all pagans have an earth-based religion or believe in energy work.

All this to say that if someone believes in Jesus the Christ as the one God and Lord of all creation, I think they can legitimately call themselves Christian, and if they fit anything pagan around that central belief, then I suppose they could be called a Christian Pagan.  Of course, people will call themselves whatever they please in the end, and who am I to stop them?  But I would certainly disagree with the term "Christian" being applied to anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ is Lord.
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« Reply #67: January 24, 2010, 09:11:14 am »

All this to say that if someone believes in Jesus the Christ as the one God and Lord of all creation, I think they can legitimately call themselves Christian, and if they fit anything pagan around that central belief, then I suppose they could be called a Christian Pagan.  Of course, people will call themselves whatever they please in the end, and who am I to stop them?  But I would certainly disagree with the term "Christian" being applied to anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ is Lord.
I found your post VERY enlightening! Thanks!

So you think more that labeling oneself as a Christian Pagan is more a personal thing; so long as they believe Jesus as their savior, etc.; rather than a communal thing to come from the incredibly varied Christian community at large?

Reason I ask being that your comments about a more nature-based perspective might be rejected by some Christians as worshiping the earth (and not God)... I'm mainly thinking here of the Vatican's recent rejection of the movie Avatar on that basis (more here ).
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« Reply #68: January 24, 2010, 02:37:58 pm »

This is the true kingdom of God, and the whole notion that the earth is disposable because we're going to a fluffy cloudy heaven is bullshit.

{{Ronja}}  Thank you! Smiley  For the whole post, but especially that part.

(And Skytoucher is a 'he'. Wink)

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« Reply #69: January 24, 2010, 07:18:03 pm »

{{Ronja}}  Thank you! Smiley  For the whole post, but especially that part.

(And Skytoucher is a 'he'. Wink)

You're welcome.  And my apologies to Skytoucher  Smiley


I found your post VERY enlightening! Thanks!

So you think more that labeling oneself as a Christian Pagan is more a personal thing; so long as they believe Jesus as their savior, etc.; rather than a communal thing to come from the incredibly varied Christian community at large?

Reason I ask being that your comments about a more nature-based perspective might be rejected by some Christians as worshiping the earth (and not God).

Obviously, a great many Christians and Christian institutions will have the issues with anyone calling themselves a "Christian Pagan", regardless of the circumstances.  I'm just saying that the most basic literal definition of "Christian" is someone who professes Jesus to be the "Christ", so if that is true of someone, then I could handle them using the word "Christian" to define themselves.  Chances are I'd still disagree with their overall theology/philosophy, but I'm one of those annoying people who likes technicalities, so I'd accept this use of the word "Christian."

To answer your specific question about the communal aspect of Christianity--and this delves into slightly deeper layer of theology--I believe that Christians must be part of the larger Christian community (or "communion").  You can't be a Christian all by yourself, Jesus was all about breaking down barriers and reconciliation and bringing humankind into communion with God.  You can't be in communion with God and hold yourself separate from all other Christians.  So yes, I do think that there needs to be some community recognition for someone to be a true Christian.  In my tradition, this comes in the rite of baptism where an adult publicly declares allegiance to Christ and becomes part of the Christian communion (sometimes referred to as the "body of Christ").  So yes, the communal aspect is important too in a full and more-than-pure-technicality definition of "Christian".

As for the earth-worship:  I wouldn't say I worship the earth, sky, or sea.  I simply honor them as brothers & sisters, or perhaps cousins, in God's creation.  Similar to the way I respect other human beings as brothers & sisters in God's creation, but different because I'm not convinced any actual sentience is there.  But I do believe some sort of Godspark, or energy, is there in them like it is in me and you.  I don't see this as being contradictory with Christian theology.

My pagan influences are very thin indeed, and I don't call myself a Christian Pagan.  I'm pretty much just a Christian.  But I'm still hanging out here from time to time to see if I can learn something anyway.
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« Reply #70: January 25, 2010, 01:28:56 am »

My pagan influences are very thin indeed, and I don't call myself a Christian Pagan.  I'm pretty much just a Christian.  But I'm still hanging out here from time to time to see if I can learn something anyway.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being 'just' a Christian. It's nice to have you hear to share discussions with as it's good to have a different perspective sometimes.we can all learn from each other if we actually listen rather than just hear. As someone once said 'we live to learn and we learn by living'.
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« Reply #71: January 25, 2010, 08:09:42 am »

I'm pretty much just a Christian.  But I'm still hanging out here from time to time to see if I can learn something anyway.

And you're more than welcome to. For many years, we had a Christian theologian on staff. Unfortunately, real life caught up with her so we mainly see her on Facebook any more.  (Technically, she's still staff here, however.)
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« Reply #72: January 25, 2010, 10:23:37 am »

If you throw out the rest of the bible and just keep the gospels, it seems--to my interpretation--to be a great panentheistic revelation.  But according to most churches, of course, that's heretical.

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When I was still trying hard to fit in at Church, I was definitely a heretic. 

While I do not worship Jesus, nor consider him to be a deity, I do think he had a lot of great things to teach us, so I haven't thrown out the baby with the bathwater at all.  What Jesus had to say was good stuff overall.

I've contemplated how to respond to this for a while now, mulling over how to word this.  It boils down to this, I guess.  I'm not a Christian and never really was, but Jesus' teachings are as valuable to me as the teachings of many other great spiritual teachers throughout time that I've read of. 
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« Reply #73: January 25, 2010, 04:42:47 pm »

  I'm not a Christian and never really was, but Jesus' teachings are as valuable to me as the teachings of many other great spiritual teachers throughout time that I've read of. 

Agreeing with this here.  I have no problems with Jesus.  It's just his more rabid fans that scare me. Wink
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« Reply #74: January 25, 2010, 05:19:18 pm »

Agreeing with this here.  I have no problems with Jesus.  It's just his more rabid fans that scare me. Wink

Rabid fans of anything scare me. 
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