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Author Topic: Worshipping deities from two different pantheons - Celtic and Hellenic  (Read 8001 times)
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« Topic Start: January 16, 2010, 01:26:59 pm »

The only deities to make themselves known to me have been Celtic, particularly Welsh and Irish. It's quite a journey, learning about them both through research and UPG from meditation and dreams (notably dreams).

At the same time, I'm feeling a tug towards Apollo, though no others of the Greek pantheon. I've always enjoyed Greek mythology, especially as a child, and love the stories and culture. But spiritually it doesn't touch me in the same way as Celtic paganism, which feels like a completion of myself, almost. What I'm feeling, either from or towards Apollo, is more than just the interest of my childhood, and I have little doubt that there are valuable things Apollo can teach me. I'm just beginning on my Celtic path, though, and I'm wondering how best to go about juggling this. If I begin to worship Apollo and cultivate a relationship, I wish to do it separately from my Celtic rituals and devotions. I feel to include Apollo in my Celtic worship is disrespectful both to Him and to the Celtic deities.

Also, though I love Greek mythology, I am absolutely clueless about worshiping a Hellenic God appropriately.

I'm curious if anyone else worships deities from two different pantheons, if anyone worships both Celtic and Hellenic deities specifically, and how to avoid falling into the "fluffy bunny-eclectic pagan" boat. Apollo has not reached out to me in the same overt way Manannan and Rhiannon have (whose presences were made known and obvious in dreams), it's more of a gentle tug, so in beginning my worship I would like to not offend or insult right off the bat.
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« Reply #1: January 16, 2010, 01:47:11 pm »

The only deities to make themselves known to me have been Celtic, particularly Welsh and Irish. It's quite a journey, learning about them both through research and UPG from meditation and dreams (notably dreams).

At the same time, I'm feeling a tug towards Apollo, though no others of the Greek pantheon. I've always enjoyed Greek mythology, especially as a child, and love the stories and culture. But spiritually it doesn't touch me in the same way as Celtic paganism, which feels like a completion of myself, almost. What I'm feeling, either from or towards Apollo, is more than just the interest of my childhood, and I have little doubt that there are valuable things Apollo can teach me. I'm just beginning on my Celtic path, though, and I'm wondering how best to go about juggling this. If I begin to worship Apollo and cultivate a relationship, I wish to do it separately from my Celtic rituals and devotions. I feel to include Apollo in my Celtic worship is disrespectful both to Him and to the Celtic deities.

Also, though I love Greek mythology, I am absolutely clueless about worshiping a Hellenic God appropriately.

I'm curious if anyone else worships deities from two different pantheons, if anyone worships both Celtic and Hellenic deities specifically, and how to avoid falling into the "fluffy bunny-eclectic pagan" boat. Apollo has not reached out to me in the same overt way Manannan and Rhiannon have (whose presences were made known and obvious in dreams), it's more of a gentle tug, so in beginning my worship I would like to not offend or insult right off the bat.

I primarily work with Hellenic deities, though I've also worked with the Aesir and a few of the Netjer and Tuatha from time to time. First off, don't worry about coming off as fluffy. Follow your gut instinct. Second, though I've only sacrificed to him once, Apollo's a really good guy from what I've heard and has a good following on TC. As long as you're respectful or honest, there's not too much that's going to tick him off, especially since you're new at this.

On my altar, I've got a small statue of Venus de Milo, a candle, a bowl of water, an apple, some decorative things, and rose oil. To get to know Apollo, set aside some time for him every day, and set up a special place for him (even if you can't keep it up permanently). I don't know what offerings Apollo likes specifically, but the Theoi in general seem to appreciate olive oil, wine, various foods (fruits, breads, meats) and flowers. Read myths about him and his family, some of his ancient hymns, and be honest when you pray.
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« Reply #2: January 16, 2010, 01:56:11 pm »


This was me, a few years ago. I could have written this, replacing Hellenic with Kemetic and Apollo with Hetharu. (Actually, I sort of did, here; while it's not directly applicable to your situation, it might shine some light. I don't know.)

To actually answer your question: yes, there are many, many Cauldronites who worship deities from different pantheons. I do work with Celtic and Hellenic deities, though not any that you're working with. (I tried making an offering to Manannan once, when I was on this honoring all of the Tuatha De kick, and got a "Well, kid, that's nice, but you're not mine. Just so you know.") Rhiannon I've never had contact with, and I have a strong feeling telling me to stay away from Apollon, at least for now.

A good way to stay away from the fluffy bunny eclectic pagan pit of doom and unicorns is research, imo. Those that are willing to learn and make an effort to do so can never be fluffy. And there's nothing wrong with being eclectic; it works for some people, it doesn't for others. There's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to it in some circles, but if you do it intelligently, it can be really meaningful. (And I link Darkhawk's essay On Eclecticism for the third time today...)

I'd poke around the Ta Heira SIG some; there are several Apollo devotees on the forum, some eclectic, some recon, some somewhere in between, and I'm sure they could offer their experiences with working with him in a Hellenic framework. And remember: everyone starts somewhere, and surely Apollo will know this and understand it, especially if you approach him with respect.

And good luck! I know how much of a headache it can be. You'll figure it out.
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« Reply #3: January 16, 2010, 08:05:15 pm »

If I begin to worship Apollo and cultivate a relationship, I wish to do it separately from my Celtic rituals and devotions. I feel to include Apollo in my Celtic worship is disrespectful both to Him and to the Celtic deities.

In my case, it's the Norse deities and Hera from the Greek pantheon. Like you say here, I keep them separate. I do my devotions to Hera in a different ritual/context than the Aesir and Vanir. I read about Her and even if I'm not Hellenic, I read about how Hellenic reconstructionists practice their religion, so I can do something similar without being a member of their religion.

My advice is to read as much as you can about Apollo and learn how He is honored and what kinds of offerings He likes. You don't need to worship Him in a Celtic way, and you don't need to worship Him at the very same time as you are doing your Celtic rituals. He can have His own time of worship. Smiley
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« Reply #4: January 17, 2010, 12:02:34 am »

The only deities to make themselves known to me have been Celtic, particularly Welsh and Irish. It's quite a journey, learning about them both through research and UPG from meditation and dreams (notably dreams).

At the same time, I'm feeling a tug towards Apollo, though no others of the Greek pantheon. I've always enjoyed Greek mythology, especially as a child, and love the stories and culture. But spiritually it doesn't touch me in the same way as Celtic paganism, which feels like a completion of myself, almost. What I'm feeling, either from or towards Apollo, is more than just the interest of my childhood, and I have little doubt that there are valuable things Apollo can teach me. I'm just beginning on my Celtic path, though, and I'm wondering how best to go about juggling this. If I begin to worship Apollo and cultivate a relationship, I wish to do it separately from my Celtic rituals and devotions. I feel to include Apollo in my Celtic worship is disrespectful both to Him and to the Celtic deities.

Also, though I love Greek mythology, I am absolutely clueless about worshiping a Hellenic God appropriately.

I'm curious if anyone else worships deities from two different pantheons, if anyone worships both Celtic and Hellenic deities specifically, and how to avoid falling into the "fluffy bunny-eclectic pagan" boat. Apollo has not reached out to me in the same overt way Manannan and Rhiannon have (whose presences were made known and obvious in dreams), it's more of a gentle tug, so in beginning my worship I would like to not offend or insult right off the bat.

I don't worship Celtic gods myself, but if you are feeling a pull to worship Apollo alongside your Celtic practice, then do so. As far as I'm concerned, in being concerned about being respectful and bothering to learn about the gods and traditions, you're probably safe from any fluff-bunny danger.

You may also find it interesting to look into some of the Celtic gods that were associated with Apollo where the cultural borders blurred (you'll find more of this in the Gaulish/Roman areas.)

Basic Hellenic ritual is pretty easy to jump into (I think there's something here on-site?) and moving from that to more involved practice basically just depends on what you want/are able to do.

Feel free to have a look at my blog (linked in my signature)- I've got a short list of good sites on the net for more about Apollo and post all you want about Him- Apollo is one of my favorite subjects. :-)

If there's anything you want to know, or need some help finding, just ask. As it's already been said, there are a couple of Apollo devotees around here.
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« Reply #5: January 17, 2010, 04:41:19 am »

The only deities to make themselves known to me have been Celtic, particularly Welsh and Irish. It's quite a journey, learning about them both through research and UPG from meditation and dreams (notably dreams).

At the same time, I'm feeling a tug towards Apollo, though no others of the Greek pantheon. I've always enjoyed Greek mythology, especially as a child, and love the stories and culture. But spiritually it doesn't touch me in the same way as Celtic paganism, which feels like a completion of myself, almost. What I'm feeling, either from or towards Apollo, is more than just the interest of my childhood, and I have little doubt that there are valuable things Apollo can teach me. I'm just beginning on my Celtic path, though, and I'm wondering how best to go about juggling this. If I begin to worship Apollo and cultivate a relationship, I wish to do it separately from my Celtic rituals and devotions. I feel to include Apollo in my Celtic worship is disrespectful both to Him and to the Celtic deities.

Also, though I love Greek mythology, I am absolutely clueless about worshiping a Hellenic God appropriately.

I'm curious if anyone else worships deities from two different pantheons, if anyone worships both Celtic and Hellenic deities specifically, and how to avoid falling into the "fluffy bunny-eclectic pagan" boat. Apollo has not reached out to me in the same overt way Manannan and Rhiannon have (whose presences were made known and obvious in dreams), it's more of a gentle tug, so in beginning my worship I would like to not offend or insult right off the bat.
I'm not too sure about that. Obviously it's possible if you're a hard polytheist in general, but those are two completely different cultures, with two completely different worldviews, if you are taking up this element of spirituality as well. From what I gathered talking with Hellenic Recons., is that they see their pantheon as the perfect manifestation of deity. Foreign deities aren't adopted, but equated with the Olympians. The Celtic deity equated with Apollo, is Lugh(or Lugus). And from a Celtic perspective, our paganism was tribal, more animistic and not codified, with deities being regional, ancestral, and not viewed in anthropomorphic form. I think I mentioned before about how the Celts thought it humorous of the Greeks to have statues of their Gods in human form at the sacking of Delphi. However we did see this in conquered areas, like Roman-Britain, where we find Celtic statues of deity because of state politics, and even then we run into the likes of deities with horns, or three faces. The religion became more syncretic, and there were instances of the Gauls worshipping Mercury and what not. This wasn't the case in Ireland, for ex., since you mentioned an interest in Gaelic deities.    
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« Reply #6: January 17, 2010, 06:29:37 am »

From what I gathered talking with Hellenic Recons., is that they see their pantheon as the perfect manifestation of deity. Foreign deities aren't adopted, but equated with the Olympians.

This is one particular point of view- one that I've heard most emphatically from a very particular group of people. I don't think that most Hellenic recons that I know would agree with this. It is a belief, not the belief.

I think it's entirely possible to respectfully worship gods of different cultures, and no one's talking about "adopting" a foreign deity into another pantheon. The OP has an Irish/Welsh focus, but is also interested in worshiping Apollo.

The Celtic deity equated with Apollo, is Lugh(or Lugus).

One, not the only. Belenos, for example, is another one.
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« Reply #7: January 17, 2010, 10:35:11 am »

This is one particular point of view- one that I've heard most emphatically from a very particular group of people. I don't think that most Hellenic recons that I know would agree with this. It is a belief, not the belief.

I think it's entirely possible to respectfully worship gods of different cultures, and no one's talking about "adopting" a foreign deity into another pantheon. The OP has an Irish/Welsh focus, but is also interested in worshiping Apollo.

One, not the only. Belenos, for example, is another one.
I probably heard it from the same group, as saw it put in historic Hellenic religion one had to meet certain national requirements to attend the state festivals, and the worship of a foreign deity could even be illegal, which is why deities of other cultures could be viewed as another manifestation of say, the Olympians. That's just what I heard, however, I also think it's possible to respectfully worship deities of other cultures in my own opinion, because there were areas like Roman-Britain where Romans did indeed adopt foreign deities like Epona.

That's right, Belenos is another example. I was more or less trying to think of an Irish/Celtic example that you wouldn't find the Greco-Roman worshipping, as Lugus was viewed as a manifestation of Apollo, and Mercury. As far as I know that is, Gaelic Trads are my forte.
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« Reply #8: January 17, 2010, 10:44:55 am »

but those are two completely different cultures, with two completely different worldviews, if you are taking up this element of spirituality as well.

Different, yes, but that doesn't mean incompatible.

From what I gathered talking with Hellenic Recons., is that they see their pantheon as the perfect manifestation of deity. Foreign deities aren't adopted, but equated with the Olympians.

This may be the belief of some, but it is certainly not standard. There is evidence that several Olympian deities were originally foreign.

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« Reply #9: January 17, 2010, 02:02:02 pm »

Different, yes, but that doesn't mean incompatible.

This may be the belief of some, but it is certainly not standard. There is evidence that several Olympian deities were originally foreign.


I can understand that trying to look at it from a multi-cultural polytheist perspective. I know of a former regular on another forum who was an Ásatrúar, Hellenic Polytheist, and a Buddhist, and it seemed everything worked for him...But like I mentioned, most of the Hellenic Reconstructionists I've communicated with happen to be followers of Hellenismos, that have said in some instances worshipping a foreign deity would have been illegal in Greece, and I'm sure would disagree on there being any outside influence on the Olympians(going from prior conversations Cheesy) But that is very interesting Juni, I didn't know that. Would you know of any online sources I can read up on regarding that? I do come across the Greeks a lot in Hermeticism, and it would really broaden my horizons.
Whether the national requirements were a part of the traditional religion, or not, (I'm not too sure, as I mentioned Gaelic Trads are my forte), but I do see now from threads here that there are various forms of Hellenic Polytheism. Those I've goten my impressions from are very intelligent and well versed in ancient texts, but they do seem to strongly disassociate with anything neo-pagan, and are probably rigid about eclecticism to make sure there is no grey area between "Neo-Paganism" and "Reconstructionism" within their path....or it least that's the impression I get. I can understand that as well, but Polytheism is just Polytheism to me  Smiley 
 
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« Reply #10: January 17, 2010, 02:09:46 pm »


This may sound silly, but how are you defining Neo-Pagan? When I use the term, I mean any modern religion that may take influence or guidance from past polytheisms (even if the view is less than historical). For me, (and I realize that not everyone agrees), Wicca and Asatru are both Neo-Pagan religions. Very different religions, but I still see them as distant cousins.
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« Reply #11: January 17, 2010, 02:13:49 pm »


A lot of it is about point of view- that is, whether you believe that cultural "purity" ever existed. I don't. People were running into each other all over the ancient world, borrowing ideas and interpreting them through their own particular cultural lens. Sometimes the adopted idea/practice/whatever was so thoroughly interpreted that it hardly resembled the foreign original; sometimes it's pretty recognizable. But there are a lot of people, especially the super-strict recons who dismiss anything outside of reconstructionism, who believe in cultural purity and work really hard to maintain in.

As for the foreign Greek gods- the Wiki article is the easiest for me to link for Aphrodite; Herodotus acknowledged her Phoencian origins, which Walter Burkert talks about in slightly more detail in Greek Religion. Also, Dionysus, who was not always listed as an Olympian but was certainly very important, was known as originally foreign even to the classical Greeks. I believe Burkert lists his origin as Thrace.
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« Reply #12: January 17, 2010, 02:15:44 pm »

This may sound silly, but how are you defining Neo-Pagan? When I use the term, I mean any modern religion that may take influence or guidance from past polytheisms (even if the view is less than historical). For me, (and I realize that not everyone agrees), Wicca and Asatru are both Neo-Pagan religions. Very different religions, but I still see them as distant cousins.

I think it's less about how UlsterYank is defining Neo-Paganism, and how some reconstructionists do. I can't speak for his acquaintances/friends, but I know there are several Gaelic Recon/Revivalist groups that very emphatically do not identify as pagan, and strive to disassociate themselves from anything related to Neo-Paganism (which I think some use as interchangeable with Neo-Wiccan).
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« Reply #13: January 17, 2010, 02:18:29 pm »

I think it's less about how UlsterYank is defining Neo-Paganism, and how some reconstructionists do. I can't speak for his acquaintances/friends, but I know there are several Gaelic Recon/Revivalist groups that very emphatically do not identify as pagan, and strive to disassociate themselves from anything related to Neo-Paganism (which I think some use as interchangeable with Neo-Wiccan).

I can understand that - personally I've had to do a lot of education when I introduce myself as Pagan, both to recons and Wiccans alike, which gets annoying the dozenth time it happens. I guess I just take a very literal interpretation of the phrase - I'm a New Pagan who follows the old gods in new ways.
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« Reply #14: January 17, 2010, 02:24:38 pm »

I think it's less about how UlsterYank is defining Neo-Paganism, and how some reconstructionists do. I can't speak for his acquaintances/friends, but I know there are several Gaelic Recon/Revivalist groups that very emphatically do not identify as pagan, and strive to disassociate themselves from anything related to Neo-Paganism (which I think some use as interchangeable with Neo-Wiccan).

*nods*

This, of course, goes for many Norse/Germanic types (and maybe some Celtic, I'm not sure) prefer to call themselves heathen for this reason.
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