The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
June 16, 2021, 03:47:42 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
June 16, 2021, 03:47:42 am

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Assisted suicide  (Read 18715 times)
Dark Midnight
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 05, 2011, 01:47:57 am
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Religious Crystal Witch and FlameKeeper
Posts: 3079


1 beautiful soul is worth a thousand pretty faces!

Blog entries (0)

Sharon-Anne Bateman


Ignore
« Topic Start: January 26, 2010, 03:30:06 am »

There is a case on the UK at the moment where a mother has, in the last week, assisted her terminally ill daughter to end her life. As usual this has caused all sorts of uproar in both the for and against camps. I would like to know what TC members think. Do you agree or disagree with assisted suicide? If you do, why do you, and if not, what reasons do you have? Are your reasons for or against social, religious or moral?
Logged

Never forget that it is MY life, no-one else's!

"Payback? Yes, I think so!"

"I seem to exist in a very pretty slice of Hell- Hello? Is there anyone else here?"

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

treekisser
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:July 30, 2011, 05:18:30 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Bajoran
Posts: 1200


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #1: January 26, 2010, 06:02:10 am »

There is a case on the UK at the moment where a mother has, in the last week, assisted her terminally ill daughter to end her life. As usual this has caused all sorts of uproar in both the for and against camps. I would like to know what TC members think. Do you agree or disagree with assisted suicide? If you do, why do you, and if not, what reasons do you have? Are your reasons for or against social, religious or moral?

The Kay Gilderdale case? I believe, in principle, in assisted suicide, for moral reasons (autonomy, dignity). But there should be strict legal safeguards. I don't know how practicable they would be - maybe the safer balance is simply the current position, where the CPS has guided discretion as to whether to prosecute, but it's still technically illegal.
Logged

'Whatever such a mind sees is a flower, and whatever such a mind dreams of is the moon.' - Basho
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #2: January 26, 2010, 07:56:00 am »

There is a case on the UK at the moment where a mother has, in the last week, assisted her terminally ill daughter to end her life.

I think it is handled fairly well in the one state in the US where it is legal. Although I am not sure if it is even allowed for minors there.

My personal opinion is that if the patient is terminal and there is no real chance of any miracle cure appearing in the immediate future, it should be up to the patient. Especially in the US where pain relief can be limited due to idiotic federal drug laws that penalize doctors who treat pain aggressively.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
Dragondaughter
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 18, 2011, 01:40:56 am
United States United States

Religion: Work in progress, seasoned with insanity..
Posts: 1016


How do I get there from here?

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #3: January 26, 2010, 08:37:31 am »

There is a case on the UK at the moment where a mother has, in the last week, assisted her terminally ill daughter to end her life. As usual this has caused all sorts of uproar in both the for and against camps. I would like to know what TC members think. Do you agree or disagree with assisted suicide? If you do, why do you, and if not, what reasons do you have? Are your reasons for or against social, religious or moral?

I live in Oregon where assisted suicide is legal, but I don't know a lot of the particulars about the law. I do know that the person has to go through a battery of both physical and mental tests before they are given the prescription. IIRC, there was news coverage about the first person who used the law to end their suffering, but not much has been said after that. I'm also not sure how many people have used that option since the law was passed. (It's probably online somewhere, but I'm not awake enough to make a coherent web search. Wink )

I agree with it. I think that quality of life should come before quantity of life. I find it an interesting societal statement that we have no qualm about euthanizing animals to end their suffering because it's the "humane" thing to do, yet balk at allowing a human the same dignity. *shrug* It is a more effective and, for lack of a better word, cleaner way to end one's suffering. With other methods, there is always the chance something will not go right, and they end up in a worse position than before.

Sorry, I have some strong opinions on this after watching the suffering my grandfather, and the rest of us went through with his Alzheimer's. He would have been horrified with what he had became if he was cognizant of it. I had told my girls that if I got to the point I couldn't take care of myself (as Grandpa did) that they should take me out in the woods and shoot me... they didn't take that news very well. Wink
Logged

Practicing...? No, experiencing Spiritual ADD for 20+ years...yeah that's it... sigh. Wink

"To understand the things that are at our door is the best preparation for understanding those things that lie beyond." Hypatia of Alexandria
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #4: January 26, 2010, 08:47:05 am »


My mom told me that if she ever became incapable of taking care of herself, she'd rather I got Kevorkian (doc that got in a lot of trouble for helping people suicide) than she got put in a nursing home.  Her mind may have changed a bit now that she's older, but I'm pretty sure that if she's incapable of thought, she won't WANT to be alive anymore.

There comes a point when life is nothing BUT anguish.  And while I think anyone declaring that for someone else is wrong, I think people should have the right to choose that for themselves.

There's no lion to get grandma when she can't keep up.  And while that's a GOOD thing, and I don't WANT lions eating granny .. I think there comes a point when we have to realize that our ability to extend quantity of life doesn't always translate to quality.

It should be sparing.  It should be a last resort.  But it should BE a resort, and one people are able to use if they need it.
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
Casey
Master Member
****
Last Login:July 05, 2011, 12:30:47 am
United States United States

Religion: Heathen
Posts: 264


Grab a beer and celebrate day!

Blog entries (2)



Ignore
« Reply #5: January 26, 2010, 09:34:59 am »

There is a case on the UK at the moment where a mother has, in the last week, assisted her terminally ill daughter to end her life. As usual this has caused all sorts of uproar in both the for and against camps. I would like to know what TC members think. Do you agree or disagree with assisted suicide? If you do, why do you, and if not, what reasons do you have? Are your reasons for or against social, religious or moral?

Having grown up with experiencing this very question concerning Dr. Death(Kevorkian) here in MI, all I can say is that I disagree with it.  In most of the cases I can recall Dr. Death helped end lives when the people were not of a sound enough mind to make that decision and it is because of that I disagree with it.  It should be an option when discussed with proper medical personal.
Logged

Owl
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:March 07, 2012, 02:46:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Hedgewitch?
Posts: 1428

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #6: January 26, 2010, 11:27:15 am »

My mom told me that if she ever became incapable of taking care of herself, she'd rather I got Kevorkian (doc that got in a lot of trouble for helping people suicide) than she got put in a nursing home.  Her mind may have changed a bit now that she's older, but I'm pretty sure that if she's incapable of thought, she won't WANT to be alive anymore.

There comes a point when life is nothing BUT anguish.  And while I think anyone declaring that for someone else is wrong, I think people should have the right to choose that for themselves.

There's no lion to get grandma when she can't keep up.  And while that's a GOOD thing, and I don't WANT lions eating granny .. I think there comes a point when we have to realize that our ability to extend quantity of life doesn't always translate to quality.

It should be sparing.  It should be a last resort.  But it should BE a resort, and one people are able to use if they need it.

This.  Totally.  In Washington state you can set up a DNR (do not resuscitate) order with the state.  Then you will be made comfortable, but they will do nothing for life extension.  And you will be hooked up to no machines.  Not even intravenous feeding.  Not the same as ending it quickly, but in most cases this will speed things up quite a bit.  And they really do everything they can for comfort (the SO's mother just went through this).  They did NOT short the morphine, but her internal defibrillator was turned off and such.  The official term at that point is Hospice Care.
Logged

AntlerandHerb.com
WarHorse
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 04, 2012, 06:05:14 pm
United States United States

Religion: Eclectic Pantheist
Posts: 2994


The little tyke.

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7: January 26, 2010, 01:31:48 pm »

Do you agree or disagree with assisted suicide? If you do, why do you, and if not, what reasons do you have? Are your reasons for or against social, religious or moral?

Agree.

I had a mini class reunion Sunday evening, and learned that two of my classmates had passed away, both by taking their own lives.  One was screwed up from birth because of defective parents and lay himself on railroad tracks.  The other was very well adjusted, but developed a disease/disorder (not specified) that was causing dementia.  He took an overdose.

The planet is grossly infected with humans, so I believe in self-termination in certain circumstances and eugenics to some degree.

Logged

"I've seen knights in armor panic at the first hint of battle.  And I've seen the lowliest unarmed squire pull a spear from his own body to defend a dying horse." - Kevin Costner as Robin of Loxley, Robin Hood; Prince of Thieves.
Ellen M.
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:February 17, 2013, 08:34:24 pm
United States United States

Religion: ADF - UU - eclectic Wiccan - devotee of Brighid
Posts: 2479

Go, then - there are other worlds than these.

Blog entries (0)

Ellen MacInnis lellenator
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8: January 26, 2010, 02:08:36 pm »

There is a case on the UK at the moment where a mother has, in the last week, assisted her terminally ill daughter to end her life. As usual this has caused all sorts of uproar in both the for and against camps. I would like to know what TC members think. Do you agree or disagree with assisted suicide? If you do, why do you, and if not, what reasons do you have? Are your reasons for or against social, religious or moral?

Tricky question. The only reason I'd want to kill myself is if my mind starts going - whether with Alzheimer's, brain damage, or just plain senility. Other than that, if it's just my body failing, I've told my family again and again that I'm to be kept on life support until there is absolutely no way to pay for it. I'd probably sign myself up for cryogenics if I thought they actually worked. Or upload my brain onto the Internet. Or something. (Come on, future scientists, get on the ball!)

Because I don't believe in a soul or afterlife, I believe that this life is the only one I've got. Suicide is especially tragic because it means giving up the rest of your natural lifespan, which to me is your only vacation from not existing. On the other hand, I've never been in enough physical anguish to ever consider killing myself, so I'm in absolutely no position to judge whether someone has the right to take their life in an assisted suicide situation. I'm not familiar with the laws in my area, but I'd hope that there were certain criteria to be met - certain levels of pain and duress (a sticky subject, I know) and the mental capacity of the patient in question.

If either my parents wanted assisted suicide, I don't know what I'd do. Right now my impulse would be to go against their wishes and keep them alive. However, given the fact both Mom and Dad are in good shape and have another couple of decades left in them, it could be that I'm more okay with it in the future.
Logged

Sage and Starshine: My new Pagan blog about Druidry, witchcraft, Brighid, and everything in between. -- 14th post 6/1/11
Jenett
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:February 23, 2020, 06:56:44 pm
United States United States

Religion: Priestess in initiatory religious witchcraft tradition
Posts: 2506


Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #9: January 26, 2010, 03:28:07 pm »

There is a case on the UK at the moment where a mother has, in the last week, assisted her terminally ill daughter to end her life. As usual this has caused all sorts of uproar in both the for and against camps. I would like to know what TC members think. Do you agree or disagree with assisted suicide? If you do, why do you, and if not, what reasons do you have? Are your reasons for or against social, religious or moral?

I don't want to live past the point where I can clearly communicate my interests and desires, or take in input. I'm okay with quite a lot of physical inability to do stuff as long as those things continue.

That said, I also really don't ever want to be in the position where the choice to keep me living is putting my loved ones in incredible pain and long-term stress, or where the costs are absolutely crushing them once there's no meaningful chance of recovering that kind of function.

My father died of cancer in 1990 - we were really lucky, in a lot of ways, that he was relatively active up until almost the end (he was teaching and sailing on the lake two days before he went into the hospital, and died about 18 hours after that last intake). That's really uncommon for cancer patients, and I really have a dread, on a personal level, of watching the long slow decline where everything gets worse and worse with no hope of recovery but yet takes months and months during which everyone else's life is essentially on hold or solely resolving around the person in hospital. (Ditto for things like dementia)

I think allowing time to say good bye is essential - but I'm not sure that it does most people a lot of good (anyone in the picture) to drag that out for months of very little ability to function or enjoy any part of life, and I'd like to have the choice myself, in that case, to say "Let me say good bye to everyone properly, and then not linger."
Logged

Blog: Thoughts from a threshold: http://gleewood.org/threshold
Info for seekers: http://gleewood.org/seeking
Pagan books and resources: http://gleewood.org/books
Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
High Adept Member
****
Last Login:February 06, 2013, 08:12:28 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: free-flowing animist, Dudeist Priest
TCN ID: Absentminded
Posts: 2725


Blog entries (11)


« Reply #10: January 26, 2010, 04:21:00 pm »

My father died of cancer in 1990 - we were really lucky, in a lot of ways, that he was relatively active up until almost the end (he was teaching and sailing on the lake two days before he went into the hospital, and died about 18 hours after that last intake). That's really uncommon for cancer patients, and I really have a dread, on a personal level, of watching the long slow decline where everything gets worse and worse with no hope of recovery but yet takes months and months during which everyone else's life is essentially on hold or solely resolving around the person in hospital. (Ditto for things like dementia)

My mother was like that, too.  She lived well past when the doctor's thought she would and was up and sitting at the table visiting with relatives on her last morning.  She went for a nap around noon and never came back, which was how she always said she wanted it.  She had a daily nurse but spent no time in the hospital except for a couple of short-term stays and her chemo treatments.

She did have a DNR order.  I still haven't made up my mind about that.  I've been 'brought back to life' several times and each time I'm glad that I had no paperwork preventing it.  Like you, I can face a lot of physical fragility as long as my mind is okay.  Input is more important than output - I am always curious, even when I can't really comment on what I'm seeing. 

 I've done a lot of work with the physically handicapped and there are amazing devices out there for communication, especially with the net and computers.  I've had lively conversations and games with people who are completely immobilized and non-verbal, using various interfaces.  I'm also not prone to depression, though, and I don't know what kind of difference it would make if I were.  I just know that as it stands now I would not want anyone else to make such a decision for me based on their estimate of my quality of life.  Total vegetative state with no hope for recovery, okay.  Can still be entertained/interested, let me stay on the ride.

I am not taking financial factors into account here, just because I am not used to thinking of them as relevant to health care.  If they should become so in the future then I would definitely not want to put my family in need to keep me alive.

Absent
Logged

"There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure."
- Jack E. Leonard

Blessed are the cracked, for it is they who let in the light.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

L Cohen
Finn
High Adept Member
******
*
Last Login:December 22, 2013, 02:30:14 pm
United States United States

Religion: An Seanchas Fior
TCN ID: Finn
Posts: 2754


The world is quiet here.

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #11: January 26, 2010, 10:26:41 pm »

The planet is grossly infected with humans, so I believe in self-termination in certain circumstances and eugenics to some degree.

Overpopulation is the great taboo: when you start talking about it as a serious problem, people start thinking you are a sociopath and want everyone dead. Which is why I usually don't bring it up at cocktail parties.  Tongue

But that's a little beside the point your post sparked in my head. I read The Noonday Demon, in which the author (a chronic depressive) says that while he does not currently want to kill himself, the idea that someone could take away his right and his ability to end his own life is horrific.
Logged

Fight evil: read books.

My Spiritual Blog: An Seanchas Fior
My Personal Blog: An Seanchas Finn
mandrina
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:August 13, 2013, 11:51:25 pm
United States United States

Religion: Reclaiming practice, still trying to identify diety, but have some ideas
Posts: 3546


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #12: January 27, 2010, 11:21:05 am »

My mother was like that, too.  She lived well past when the doctor's thought she would and was up and sitting at the table visiting with relatives on her last morning.  She went for a nap around noon and never came back, which was how she always said she wanted it.  She had a daily nurse but spent no time in the hospital except for a couple of short-term stays and her chemo treatments.

She did have a DNR order.  I still haven't made up my mind about that.  I've been 'brought back to life' several times and each time I'm glad that I had no paperwork preventing it.  Like you, I can face a lot of physical fragility as long as my mind is okay.  Input is more important than output - I am always curious, even when I can't really comment on what I'm seeing. 

 I've done a lot of work with the physically handicapped and there are amazing devices out there for communication, especially with the net and computers.  I've had lively conversations and games with people who are completely immobilized and non-verbal, using various interfaces.  I'm also not prone to depression, though, and I don't know what kind of difference it would make if I were.  I just know that as it stands now I would not want anyone else to make such a decision for me based on their estimate of my quality of life.  Total vegetative state with no hope for recovery, okay.  Can still be entertained/interested, let me stay on the ride.

I am not taking financial factors into account here, just because I am not used to thinking of them as relevant to health care.  If they should become so in the future then I would definitely not want to put my family in need to keep me alive.

Absent

DNR orders make more sense when one is old and decrepit.  In the setting of the nursing home, The DNR means, if I find you dead, I leave you dead.  ACLS is much more likely to work effectively on younger people and they are less likely to be permanently affected.  They are more likely to recover well.  We have a horror of feeding tubes, but if the abilitiy to eat is the main one that is affected, people live otherwise normal lives with feeding tubes, ostomies, the need for catherizations, incontinence, it's only when it's combined with paralysis, or dementia that there is reason to truly fear these things, and even then, not necesessarily. Pain and dementia seem to be the biggies.  And those are bad without the other things.
Logged

"I've got a bad feeling about this."

every good guy in any of the Star Wars movies.





[url=http://dragcave.net/vi
Perzephone
Master Member
****
*
Last Login:February 26, 2010, 01:55:04 am
United States United States

Religion: Unorthodox Pagan
Posts: 670


Quantum Paganism for a New Millenium

Blog entries (0)

perzephone


Ignore
« Reply #13: January 30, 2010, 01:09:07 am »

We have a horror of feeding tubes, but if the abilitiy to eat is the main one that is affected, people live otherwise normal lives with feeding tubes, ostomies, the need for catherizations, incontinence, it's only when it's combined with paralysis, or dementia that there is reason to truly fear these things, and even then, not necesessarily.

I support assisted suicide. I support unassisted suicide. I believe that we should be able to choose when we die. The only thing that I'm against is taking unwilling participants with you when you go.

I can't imagine how humiliating it would be, on a daily basis, to have to constantly worry about urinating or defecating on myself, or how horrible having to rely on someone else to provide me with the basic necessities of life like that would be. To me, it's like a return to an infantile state - and you're stuck that way for the rest of your life, and you have awareness of how helpless you are for the rest of your life. Not being able to take care of myself is one of the greatest problems I have with aging - which is why I have a plan. Legal or not, assisted or not, when I feel that I am getting to the end of my time as a mildly useful human being (I am not currently all that useful, considering that I'm a minor gear in local government... more like a minor tool come to think of it, but I can still type & fill out purchase orders so, eh, I'll stick around), it's all over.
Logged

Adele
Master Member
****
Last Login:July 09, 2011, 07:27:54 pm
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic pagan
Posts: 475


Image courtesy of iconomicon

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #14: January 30, 2010, 02:01:41 am »

I support assisted suicide. I support unassisted suicide. I believe that we should be able to choose when we die. The only thing that I'm against is taking unwilling participants with you when you go.


I live in Oregon.  I support assisted suicide.  I second what I quoted above.
Logged

"Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate."
       -John M. Ford, Making Light comment

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Suicide. An irrational response? « 1 2 3 4 »
Faith in Everyday Life
BGMarc 49 13118 Last post July 31, 2009, 12:51:52 am
by rose
Suicide Bombers' Union to go on Strike
Humor and Quizzes
WarHorse 3 1633 Last post January 15, 2010, 08:17:49 pm
by WarHorse
Senate Republicans commit political suicide over jobless aid bill
Political Discussions
Phoenix 14 4727 Last post June 28, 2010, 11:28:47 am
by Phoenix
Outrage on campus over student's suicide after sex tape is broadcast online
Non-Religious News
LyricFox 10 3014 Last post September 30, 2010, 06:25:57 pm
by Vermillion
Odin's suicide: Why?
Asatru and Heathenry SIG
Juniperberry 11 7257 Last post December 24, 2010, 07:31:32 pm
by Juniperberry
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.077 seconds with 56 queries.