The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
September 22, 2020, 03:32:45 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 22, 2020, 03:32:45 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Correlating Egyptian terms/concepts  (Read 4312 times)
Sa Hu-Sia-Heka
Newbie
*
Last Login:March 05, 2011, 07:55:14 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic (primary); Wiccan; Buddhist
Posts: 3


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Topic Start: February 03, 2010, 04:26:11 pm »

I wondered if I might posit a question that was asked of me, and see what insights and thoughts you might have.

The question posed to me was :

I have an Egyptian terminology question for you...are there terms that would cognate for the Middle World, Upper world and Lower World in Egyptian practice? I know Duat is often used, and most often for the underworld/land of the dead. Are there other specific words for the three basic zones?

If anyone is not familiar with the Lower, Middle and Upper Worlds, you find this in shamanic work as well as other traditions and cultures, and the basic idea is that the ower World is the realm of the dead, the ancestors, the ancient ones; the Middle World is the realm we inhabit and includes the spirits of the natural world in this realm (stones, land spirits, herbs/plants, animals, etc); and the Upper World is the realm of the angelic and divine beings (archangels, gods/goddesses, that sort of thing).  Im sure thats highly simplistic (and, hopefully, a correct representation of each of the realms feel free to correct me if needed).

So, one wonders if there are similar concepts and terms from the Egyptian perspective ?

It does seem to be complicated in that the term Duat does seem to be a blend of the Lower and Upper Worlds in many ways.  Is there a term used for the realm of the Netjeru, for example, that might differentiate it in some way ?  Is there a word for the realm of the akhu (the northern sky, the imperishable stars) that might differentiate it from the realms of the duat that one navigates in order to become an akh ?

But I thought Id put it out there and see if anyone had insights and thoughts on this...or perhaps has one or more references they might direct me and the person asking toward for more in depth study and understanding.

Any and all thoughts, considerations, insights would be appreciated.
Logged

Em hotep,
Sa Hu-Sia-Heka

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Devo
Master Member
****
Last Login:October 26, 2011, 09:58:01 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic
Posts: 550


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1: February 03, 2010, 05:09:46 pm »


I'll have to go home and double check in my books, but from what I understand, the Duat and the realm of the gods is essentially one and the same. That Duat was in the stars- in the sky, inside of Nut (If you will). I understand the concept of breaking it into three, but I really only see the physical plane, and the non-physical plane that encompasses ahku, spirits/demons (netjeri?), and gods. Perhaps I've got it wrong, but if memory serves, I think that's what I've read.

-Devo
Logged

dA | FB | LJ
Satsekhem
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:October 16, 2011, 11:51:56 am
United States United States

Religion: Something? Somewhere?
Posts: 2991


I rock so hardcore.

Blog entries (0)

aubs.taylor
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #2: February 04, 2010, 07:08:48 am »

I wondered if I might posit a question that was asked of me, and see what insights and thoughts you might have.

The question posed to me was :

I have an Egyptian terminology question for you...are there terms that would cognate for the Middle World, Upper world and Lower World in Egyptian practice? I know Duat is often used, and most often for the underworld/land of the dead. Are there other specific words for the three basic zones?

If anyone is not familiar with the Lower, Middle and Upper Worlds, you find this in shamanic work as well as other traditions and cultures, and the basic idea is that the ower World is the realm of the dead, the ancestors, the ancient ones; the Middle World is the realm we inhabit and includes the spirits of the natural world in this realm (stones, land spirits, herbs/plants, animals, etc); and the Upper World is the realm of the angelic and divine beings (archangels, gods/goddesses, that sort of thing).  Im sure thats highly simplistic (and, hopefully, a correct representation of each of the realms feel free to correct me if needed).

So, one wonders if there are similar concepts and terms from the Egyptian perspective ?

It does seem to be complicated in that the term Duat does seem to be a blend of the Lower and Upper Worlds in many ways.  Is there a term used for the realm of the Netjeru, for example, that might differentiate it in some way ?  Is there a word for the realm of the akhu (the northern sky, the imperishable stars) that might differentiate it from the realms of the duat that one navigates in order to become an akh ?

But I thought Id put it out there and see if anyone had insights and thoughts on this...or perhaps has one or more references they might direct me and the person asking toward for more in depth study and understanding.

Any and all thoughts, considerations, insights would be appreciated.

I can't get to the book right now, but in Religion in Ancient Egypt... edited by Byron E. Shafer, it was mentioned that there were different places in the Underworld. There were two separate fields mentioned and I know one of them is similar to the Elysium fields of Greek myth, but that's the only bit that I can recall.
Logged

Sekhemib-Nymaatre; spiritual blog.
Thanks For All the Fish; opinionated ranty blog.

I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be. - Douglas Adams
Bastemhet
Master Member
****
Last Login:July 29, 2012, 07:48:38 am
United States United States

Religion: Reformed Kemetic
Posts: 500


May She smile upon me always.

Blog entries (0)

http://www.facebook.com/h
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3: February 04, 2010, 12:41:20 pm »

If anyone is not familiar with the Lower, Middle and Upper Worlds, you find this in shamanic work as well as other traditions and cultures, and the basic idea is that the ower World is the realm of the dead, the ancestors, the ancient ones; the Middle World is the realm we inhabit and includes the spirits of the natural world in this realm (stones, land spirits, herbs/plants, animals, etc); and the Upper World is the realm of the angelic and divine beings (archangels, gods/goddesses, that sort of thing).  Im sure thats highly simplistic (and, hopefully, a correct representation of each of the realms feel free to correct me if needed).

So, one wonders if there are similar concepts and terms from the Egyptian perspective ?

From what I've read, the Duat isn't actually under anything.  I don't have my source with me at the moment but the Duat seems to be the realm that exists just beyond the twilight.  Different sources give it different geographical placements (to the north, west, etc.) but what matters is not so much where it's located so much as the journey through it.  The gods and goddesses are said to pass through the Duat at night but are not limited to dwelling there, because they are also immanent in the physical world, or what you might call the Middle World.  

Quote
Is there a word for the realm of the akhu (the northern sky, the imperishable stars) that might differentiate it from the realms of the duat that one navigates in order to become an akh ?

This idea of being one of the northern stars is I think an early one reserved for royalty and the privileged few.  However this is not the only place one can end up.  One could also ride the sun barque with Ra.  Actually I think there 5 different places someone can end up in, sometimes maybe even all of them.  As the religion evolved, earlier conceptions did not become replaced or fade away.  Rather new ideas were incorporated with older ones.

Quote
But I thought Id put it out there and see if anyone had insights and thoughts on this...or perhaps has one or more references they might direct me and the person asking toward for more in depth study and understanding.

I'm pretty sure I got most of this from "Temples of the Cosmos" by Jeremy Naydler.  Take care to notice that his writing has some Hermetic influence so some of his conclusions might be a bit biased to fit that philosophy, since when I read it there were a couple things that didn't sound too Egyptian.  For the most part it's a really great source for a beginner who wants to know more about basic ideas of the religion.  

I'd also recommend "The Ancient Gods Speak" edited by Donald Redford as I'm pretty sure there's a section on the Duat in there, but I'll have to recheck it.

And I'm also pretty sure that the different ideas of where people go when they die was quoted in Jan Assmann's "The Search for God in Ancient Egypt" but I'll have to recheck that.
Logged

Sa Hu-Sia-Heka
Newbie
*
Last Login:March 05, 2011, 07:55:14 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic (primary); Wiccan; Buddhist
Posts: 3


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #4: February 08, 2010, 06:46:19 pm »

The question posed to me was :

I have an Egyptian terminology question for you...are there terms that would cognate for the Middle World, Upper world and Lower World in Egyptian practice? I know Duat is often used, and most often for the underworld/land of the dead. Are there other specific words for the three basic zones?

Thank you to everyone for the thoughts.  I wanted to post what I finally replied to the person asking :

pt for sky (upper world) - realm of the akhu and the netjeru
ta for earth (middle world) - realm of the living
duat for netherworld (lower world) - realm of the dead

In these terms you have an interesting concept in the form of the name of the netjer Ptah...where we see the creator god and divine craftsmen of sky and earth and humankind, making the divine into form on/as the Earth in the combination of pt and ta, sky and earth.

- or -

Another word that could perhaps be employed instead of duat, since that really has such broader implications, is imHt (pronounced eem-het or ee-meh-het), which is a word that means netherworld or tomb and could perhaps be used for the lower world due to its tomb/dead connotation.

So, I suppose you could have :

pt for sky (upper world) - realm of the akhu and the netjeru
ta for earth (middle world) - realm of the living
imHt for netherworld (lower world) - realm of the dead
Logged

Em hotep,
Sa Hu-Sia-Heka
Bastemhet
Master Member
****
Last Login:July 29, 2012, 07:48:38 am
United States United States

Religion: Reformed Kemetic
Posts: 500


May She smile upon me always.

Blog entries (0)

http://www.facebook.com/h
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #5: February 11, 2010, 01:48:17 am »

pt for sky (upper world) - realm of the akhu and the netjeru
ta for earth (middle world) - realm of the living
imHt for netherworld (lower world) - realm of the dead

I'm confused.  How would the ancient Egyptian word for sky correlate with a "shamanic" understanding of the upper realm, and ta for the "middle world"?  Isn't this just transplanting Egyptian words for concepts that don't really correlate?  I have never heard of anyone in ancient Egypt taking a "shamanic" journey to the sky except for late priests of Amun viewing the sky from a staircase during initiation ritual.  Even then I'm not sure that this would qualify as a "shamanic journey."

Also the earth is not just a realm for the living because it is understood that the deceased ancestors would not only inhabit but affect the living.
Logged

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Terms of Service
Rules and Regulations
RandallS 0 11178 Last post March 04, 2007, 12:13:27 pm
by RandallS
Core Concepts « 1 2 »
Reformed Kemeticism SIG
sefiru 24 14839 Last post November 19, 2007, 02:26:09 pm
by Magpie
Egyptian God, Set « 1 2 »
Gods, Goddesses, and Mythology
ladywhitewolf 19 5861 Last post September 21, 2008, 11:13:00 am
by Sab Saiti
Terms for the UK Census « 1 2 »
Faith in Everyday Life
SleepyRedGirl 20 8802 Last post March 28, 2011, 02:28:20 am
by Dark Midnight
Energy Split (like an alter ego) - explained in terms of astrology
Paganism For Beginners
Skydaughter 9 6907 Last post July 02, 2011, 05:41:41 pm
by stardancer
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.044 seconds with 39 queries.