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Author Topic: Do entheogens really exist?  (Read 11685 times)
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« Topic Start: February 06, 2010, 12:58:14 am »

According to Wikipedia "an entheogen ("creates god within," en εν- "in, within," theo θεος- "god, divine," -gen γενος "creates, generates"),[1] in the strict sense, is a psychoactive substance used in a religious, shamanic or spiritual context. "

My question is, do people here believe that such substances do in fact have a religious/spiritual dimension to them, or is it just a way to try and justify drug use/abuse?
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« Reply #1: February 06, 2010, 01:03:44 am »

According to Wikipedia "an entheogen ("creates god within," en εν- "in, within," theo θεος- "god, divine," -gen γενος "creates, generates"),[1] in the strict sense, is a psychoactive substance used in a religious, shamanic or spiritual context. "

My question is, do people here believe that such substances do in fact have a religious/spiritual dimension to them, or is it just a way to try and justify drug use/abuse?

I think that altered states of consciousness can help the spiritual process along. Personally, I'm not a fan of ingesting any drug that's not prescription or OTC - I've had watered down wine during a blót once, but that was a sip and I was squeamish enough that I think the gods would understand if I just gave libations from then on. I would never purposefully ingest a substance to seriously alter my brain, and I would /not/ be comfortable with others doing it in ritual with me. If you have an awesome trip where the universe's mysteries were explained to you by the gods themselves, awesome, I'd love to hear about it. I'd just rather use another method to get my spiritual/creative juices flowing.
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« Reply #2: February 06, 2010, 01:26:00 am »

If you have an awesome trip where the universe's mysteries were explained to you by the gods themselves, awesome, I'd love to hear about it.

I get your point, but what I'm really wondering is whether such a wonderful trip could really involve a spiritual interaction with deity, of if that's just wishful/sloppy thinking on the part of those who advocate their use. What do you think (together with the ubiquitous 'why?' question that tends to go with this forum)?
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« Reply #3: February 06, 2010, 01:36:51 am »

My question is, do people here believe that such substances do in fact have a religious/spiritual dimension to them, or is it just a way to try and justify drug use/abuse?

Altered states of consciousness have always, cross-culturally, been tools for contacting the divine.  This is attested across a myriad cultures.  Those altered states have been induced via meditation, dance, flagellation, substance consumption, sex, taboo-breaking, and many other means.

It seems to me that it requires a certain cultural self-centeredness and lack of awareness of human practice to claim that entheogenic substances do not exist.  They have been used, with success, for thousands of years.  Neo-Puritan squeamishness about certain substances ought not override the lived experiences of millions of humans.

I know that it is popular in parts of the West to blow such things off as fictions and excuses for indulgence.  Setting aside the point that the idea that psychoactive use does not require justification, that position can only be held from a position that is both ethnocentric (ignoring the expertise of particularly tribal peoples) and Cartesian (insisting that mental/spiritual phenomena and physical phenomena are of different kinds).
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« Reply #4: February 06, 2010, 02:20:57 am »

As a preface. I am a user of recreational and research chemicals and a proponent of entheogens. This thread is an attempt to explore my own convictions through the eyes and knowledge of others. I'm glad you chose to respond, as I am aware that you have had very cogent input to threads touching on related areas in the past Smiley

Altered states of consciousness have always, cross-culturally, been tools for contacting the divine.  This is attested across a myriad cultures.  Those altered states have been induced via meditation, dance, flagellation, substance consumption, sex, taboo-breaking, and many other means.

I believe that it is true that altered states have been evoked in the ways you have mentioned and have been associated with religious practice throughout history. The referencing for this is appalling in the literature, but I am personally convinced of it and am not intending to seriously question such assertions in this (or any other) thread. Then again, I am sure I have read references from other historical eras that also questioned the veracity of the experience. I just can't help wondering if they actually lead to contact with the divine, or have a history of being thought to do so, without actually doing so.

If they are real, what is it about the various states that does the trick? Are they variations on the same state, or have a common element of some sort? Do the different ways of altering consciousness have different potential for establishing interaction directly with deity?

Quote
It seems to me that it requires a certain cultural self-centeredness and lack of awareness of human practice to claim that entheogenic substances do not exist.  They have been used, with success, for thousands of years.  Neo-Puritan squeamishness about certain substances ought not override the lived experiences of millions of humans.

I don't think that there is any question that psychoactive substances exist, have an established history of usage and have been commonly thought of as having a religio-spiritual dimension. Whether or not they are genuinely  entheogenic and whether or not they have been used 'with success' on tht count is what I hope to explore here. I agree tht the long years of associating euphorics with the temptation to sin clouds many attempts at rational discussion in this area Sad I would though like to make it clear that this thread is not based in any such attitude (and I have little personal interst in hearing responses that want to put that point of view; I can't stop them and I'll read them, but I can't see them interesting or convincing me Smiley). On the culturecentric aspect, as I mentioned above, it is my understanding that the entheogenic nature of these substances has often been questioned within the cultures that do have a semi-formalised role for them.

Quote
I know that it is popular in parts of the West to blow such things off as fictions and excuses for indulgence.  Setting aside the point that the idea that psychoactive use does not require justification, that position can only be held from a position that is both ethnocentric (ignoring the expertise of particularly tribal peoples) and Cartesian (insisting that mental/spiritual phenomena and physical phenomena are of different kinds).

 The introduction of the Cartesian aspect is really interesting (not that the previous points weren't Cheesy). How do you think that it effects our understanding of entheogens and what does it tell us about how/why they are able to establish this sort of contact? What model do you use as an alternative to the mind/body split when you're thinking these things through?

BTW, I absolutely agree that the use of psychoactives requires no more justification than any other human activity (which is to say it varies a lot).
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« Reply #5: February 06, 2010, 02:23:59 am »

It seems to me that it requires a certain cultural self-centeredness and lack of awareness of human practice to claim that entheogenic substances do not exist.  They have been used, with success, for thousands of years.  Neo-Puritan squeamishness about certain substances ought not override the lived experiences of millions of humans.

I know that it is popular in parts of the West to blow such things off as fictions and excuses for indulgence. 

I pretty much ditto these sentiments.

I'm a plant person. I really get to know my plant allies - I roll in patches of them, I talk to them, I listen to them... Although I prefer the Poison Path, many of my allies are otherwise benign. I have spiritual experiences when I use rosemary or juniper berries - and those are not plants known for taking folks on trips.

I'm sure some people can get away with claiming spiritual experiences to justify their use of various psychoactive substances, but the spirits of some are not all that easy-going... opium poppies being a prime example of a good thing that can go very wrong if misused and disrespected.
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« Reply #6: February 06, 2010, 02:25:55 am »



Would you say that it is possible for completely manufactured substances to be entheogens as well? I ask because your post seems to link the entheogenic quality with the spirit of the plant (a common POV AFAIK).
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« Reply #7: February 06, 2010, 02:32:44 am »

Would you say that it is possible for completely manufactured substances to be entheogens as well? I ask because your post seems to link the entheogenic quality with the spirit of the plant (a common POV AFAIK).

I never think of purely synthesized chemicals (say, crack or meth or pharms like Elavil) as entheogens. To me, they are just drugs. There are some, like DMT, that are commonly synthesized but had their basis in organic sources.
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« Reply #8: February 06, 2010, 02:40:22 am »

I never think of purely synthesized chemicals (say, crack or meth or pharms like Elavil) as entheogens. To me, they are just drugs. There are some, like DMT, that are commonly synthesized but had their basis in organic sources.

Do you think that their nature as drugs is caused by the fact of synthesis? I ask because I know people who use substances (e.g. 2CE, 2CT2) that do not occur naturally, but that they believe are entheogenic in nature, rather than simply 'recreational' (which I'm using as a catch-all for any non-entheogenic substance use). BTW, about to head out to a multicultural festival, so might not replay for a while. Thanks for helping me explore the ideas though Cheesy
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« Reply #9: February 06, 2010, 04:22:36 am »

It seems to me that it requires a certain cultural self-centeredness and lack of awareness of human practice to claim that entheogenic substances do not exist.

By the same token, it's important to take into account that not every individual will respond to a given ethenogen the same way.  I think part of the disconnect as to the effects of ethenogens is the idea that all experiences resulting from them are "goddish".

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« Reply #10: February 06, 2010, 01:35:13 pm »

Do you think that their nature as drugs is caused by the fact of synthesis?

I think in some cases, the intent behind the creation of the drug could influence the outcome of using it. I've known a lot of people who've smoked crack, and a lot of people who've used meth... I can attest to the fact that they're not even thinking about the potential of meeting God while high. Nothing about those drugs is healing or therapeutic - and when produced, no one cooking that crap up is thinking about helping anyone.

Quote
I ask because I know people who use substances (e.g. 2CE, 2CT2) that do not occur naturally, but that they believe are entheogenic in nature, rather than simply 'recreational' (which I'm using as a catch-all for any non-entheogenic substance use).

The only real information I have on 2CT2 or 2CE is from PIHKAL, which is just one guy's (albeit an experienced psychonaut and the 'father' of those drugs) experiences with the drug. They're phenethylamines, and given that so many other phenethylamines are used as entheogens, it would make sense that they can provide that spiritual experience.
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« Reply #11: February 06, 2010, 03:08:41 pm »

My question is, do people here believe that such substances do in fact have a religious/spiritual dimension to them, or is it just a way to try and justify drug use/abuse?

While I definitely think they have a religious/spiritual dimension--as is the case in many indigenous cultures, as others have previously noted--I think there's great peril in trying to use them divorced from such a cultural context.

(As someone who is loathe to put drugs of any kind in his system--I've never even smoked a joint, and I don't even keep aspirin in the house--yet who indirectly works for pharmaceutical companies, I'm not sure how much weight anything I have to say on this subject should be given!)

Case in point: Daniel Pinchbeck. He and I worked together at some dumb glossy magazine when we were both in our twenties. Back then he was trying to make a literary reputation for himself. I haven't seen him in years and we've only communicated sparsely since, but from what I've read he's now immersed entirely in the pursuit of entheogens, without the grounding of someone who lives and grew up in a culture with a long tradition of their use.

From an otherwise mostly favorable review online of his book 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl:

Quote
Where Pinchbeck's book falls down - at least from his original argument of not insult the reasoning mind - is the downward spiral in the later chapters in which the author begins wondering whether he has been 'chosen' as one to bring this new consciousness into being. Pinchbeck quotes Edward Edinger: "The archetypes themselves cannot evolve into full consciousness without being routed through a mortal ego to bring that consciousness into realization." By this time in the book - especially upon his return to the Burning Man festival - Pinchbeck is the epitome of a psychedelic burnout, going many days without sleep or sustenance, and begins believing that he may be one of these 'routers'. He receives 'transmissions' from an entity describing itself as Quetzalcoatl, heralding a new dawn of consciousness.

(from http://www.dailygrail.com/node/2977)

Most of us here hold unconventional spiritual views, but this sounds dangerously close to losing one's grip on reality.
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« Reply #12: February 06, 2010, 03:23:17 pm »

I just can't help wondering if they actually lead to contact with the divine, or have a history of being thought to do so, without actually doing so.

Well, how the heck would you judge?  (Same way you evaluate any other UPG, obviously, but aside from that.)  I mean, maybe this question is useful to someone who isn't an extremely hard agnostic, but since I believe that no contact with the divine can be verified as such in the first place, I, well.  So it can't be verified.  That distinguishes it from other methodologies of dealing with gods ... not at all.

Quote
If they are real, what is it about the various states that does the trick? Are they variations on the same state, or have a common element of some sort? Do the different ways of altering consciousness have different potential for establishing interaction directly with deity?

I would say that altered consciousness states as a whole have an effect of changing a person's attention focus.  Which would, in general, shift their awareness and interpretation of stimuli, making it possible for different patterns to emerge.  Spiritual entities can therefore use that shift to facilitate contact and communication, especially if the usage in question aligns the mind more to whatever frequency or cognitive state those spiritual entities normally reside in.

How effective this will be for specific transformational things depends on the individual, the tool (specific entheogen, sensation, whatever and the technique for applying it), and the entity in question.  Some people are well-suited to particular means of opening those channels; others work better with different ways; others aren't interested in this sort of path at all by any means.

Quote
Whether or not they are genuinely  entheogenic and whether or not they have been used 'with success' on tht count is what I hope to explore here.

... well, good luck with that.  This agnostic thinks it's kind of a fool's errand to try. Wink

Quote
The introduction of the Cartesian aspect is really interesting (not that the previous points weren't Cheesy). How do you think that it effects our understanding of entheogens and what does it tell us about how/why they are able to establish this sort of contact? What model do you use as an alternative to the mind/body split when you're thinking these things through?

The whole Cartesian thing underlies a lot of modern thinking on a lot of levels.  (Consider, for example, the people who consider that depression or other mental health issues are "of the mind" and thus object to treating them with medication, which is "of the body".  Some rhetoric around that presents the use of medication as effectively sinful, because spiritual matters should be dealt with spiritually.)

Consider the number of actual religious pagans or people who actually believe in things like magic who consistently suggest that tool use is a feeble crutch for people who aren't capable of doing things by will alone.  Or the people who come into entheogenic discussions and say that all spiritual contact should be handled with meditation.  I once had an argument with someone who suggested that the correct way to deal with rituals when travelling was to "do them astrally" rather than actually do them.  And so on.

So, in this framework, the use of entheogens, a material object, for spiritual goals is, at best, considered cheating - using a physical thing for a mental/spiritual purpose.  These are not considered "real" mental/spiritual experiences, because "real" mental/spiritual experiences are achieved solely with mental/spiritual tools.

Me, I think tools are tools.  I also think I am an embodied spirit.
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« Reply #13: February 06, 2010, 04:54:48 pm »

According to Wikipedia "an entheogen ("creates god within," en εν- "in, within," theo θεος- "god, divine," -gen γενος "creates, generates"),[1] in the strict sense, is a psychoactive substance used in a religious, shamanic or spiritual context. "

My question is, do people here believe that such substances do in fact have a religious/spiritual dimension to them, or is it just a way to try and justify drug use/abuse?

Yes, I do believe that some substances have a spiritual connection. I think that the fact that many disparate cultures have described religious experiences directly linked with entheogens says a lot. I don't feel that people who legitimately use these substances for relgious reasons are justifying anything. Most cultures that have shamanic/spiritual traditions based around hallucinogens do not even say they are "using a drug." They simply ingest the specific substance and say it connects them to their Gods. In fact, many of the drugs they take cause rather negative experiences, so I don't think that they are really justifying recreational use for that reason as well.

I have actually had a rather spiritual experience as a result of drug use. Unfortunately, I had to overdose on the drug and almost suffer a stroke before I experienced most of the "entheogenic" aspects. Notably, the drug was not commonly used entheogen as far as I am aware, so there is that. I know in my very soul that I was contacted by deity during that psychotic episode and that it was not all simply the temporary psychosis playing tricks on me. All of the hallucinations I had the entire time were very disjointed and blurry EXCEPT the ones that were linked to the Gods, those were perfectly clear and I was aware through my delirium that I was being called upon. That experience is one of the main reasons I am here (on this website) today. I probably would not have committed to Hellenismos had I not had that unfortunate accident.

In any case, I will not be experimenting with drugs, entheogenic or not, ever again.
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« Reply #14: February 06, 2010, 05:43:45 pm »

According to Wikipedia "an entheogen ("creates god within," en εν- "in, within," theo θεος- "god, divine," -gen γενος "creates, generates"),[1] in the strict sense, is a psychoactive substance used in a religious, shamanic or spiritual context. "

My question is, do people here believe that such substances do in fact have a religious/spiritual dimension to them, or is it just a way to try and justify drug use/abuse?

ANYTHING that alters the mind can be spiritual.

It can also be abused or used as a justification for abuse - be that sex, drugs - whatever.

Alcohol can be used to reach the gods, but I doubt that drunken guy at the end of the bar slurring every word is finding spirit .. SPIRITS, yes, but not spirit ......

would *I* use this stuff?  No.  But that's because my personal biochemistry is whacked, I get bad side effects all the TIME to NORMAL stuff, and I really don't want to mess with the system any more than is absolutely necessary!  If I felt it was safe PHYSICALLY, my attitudes might be different.  Since it's not, no point in worrying about it.
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