All paths lead to the same meadow

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[Owl]

What I mean is that, in my opinion, reality is not static and monolithic.
The diversity of possibilities for experience available on this planet attest to that. Imagine if your were a sea anemone. Your ideas about reality would be a little different, wouldn't they?
Our assumptions about reality are shaped by our senses, and our individual experiences and memories. And that's not even taking into consideration brain chemistry, culture etc. So our ultimate truths must be as unique as we are. There's more than one meadow.
I hope that made a shred of sense. =)

I think what you mean is not that reality is not 'static and monolithic', but that perceptions of reality are not 'static and monolithic.  I could take a large dose of LSD, and perceive things in a very different way for a day, but it wouldn't change actual reality even a tiny bit.  It would only change my perception of reality for the time period that the drug was in my system.

[Star]

I can totally agree that our perspective affects how we interact with whatever that truth is, but it doesn't change what's there.  Just how we see it.

If I can jump in for a sec...  I wonder if there's a truth-vs-fact issue going on here?  The examples you're giving all seem like "fact" issues, whereas it seems to me like Lemon Verbena's trying to get at truths.  That is, it seems like you're talking about the physical reality of "this is an oxygen molecule" and Lemon Verbena is talking about the more metaphysical reality of "oxygen=life" vs. "oxygen=death".  That's my take on the conversation, anyway...

I'd add that while I do tend to think there's an underlying fact in there somewhere, I'm not really certain that the underlying fact is always relevant to the reality we experience.  For example, I was miserable for a time in grade school because I felt I was being bullied and picked on.  Looking back on it, I'm not certain that's actually fact--I mean, I was, but I'm not sure it was really nearly as bad as I thought it was at the time.  The underlying fact there, though, is irrelevant because it's not the underlying fact that shaped my mental and emotional state at that time and the growth that's happened from that point.  It's the personal truth that I felt bullied and emotionally beaten down that did all that.

How that relates to reality...  The "fact" there is reality.  That's what really happened, regardless of what filters it went through when I processed it.  And I think that's what you're talking about when you're talking about walls and oxygen molecules.  But...  The feelings that I experienced when I processed it were also reality, regardless of what the facts of the matter were.  It might not have been the reality of the situation as it happened, but it became my reality as I reacted.  And I think that's what Lemon Verbena's talking about.

I'm not sure that's really any different from what you're saying when you're talking about how we interact with whatever truth is, but I'm hoping rephrasing and expanding on it might help clarify.  Hopefully I didn't just confuse everything further... 

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

The thing about this that gets me is that the idea that what we perceive changes what is often says, to some extent or another, that what we believe CHANGES THE GODS.  Or the afterlife.  Or something along those lines.  and THAT is where my brain starts to sizzle merrily away in my skull.

I can believe that our perception changes how we SEE that reality.  How we interact with it.  But just like a wall is a wall and oxygen is oxygen, the universe is as it is.  We might know more or less about it, but it doesn't change based on what we know.  WE change.

I cannot believe that religious issues modify based on our belief like that.  It grants a primacy to the individual human that makes me want to curl into the fetal position and twitch.  In fact, if it IS true, I want a new universe.

Reality doesn't give a crap what we believe.  It does what it's going to do anyway, and we just have to live with it.

[Lemon Verbena]

If I can jump in for a sec...  I wonder if there's a truth-vs-fact issue going on here?  The examples you're giving all seem like "fact" issues, whereas it seems to me like Lemon Verbena's trying to get at truths.  That is, it seems like you're talking about the physical reality of "this is an oxygen molecule" and Lemon Verbena is talking about the more metaphysical reality of "oxygen=life" vs. "oxygen=death".  That's my take on the conversation, anyway...

I'd add that while I do tend to think there's an underlying fact in there somewhere, I'm not really certain that the underlying fact is always relevant to the reality we experience.  For example, I was miserable for a time in grade school because I felt I was being bullied and picked on.  Looking back on it, I'm not certain that's actually fact--I mean, I was, but I'm not sure it was really nearly as bad as I thought it was at the time.  The underlying fact there, though, is irrelevant because it's not the underlying fact that shaped my mental and emotional state at that time and the growth that's happened from that point.  It's the personal truth that I felt bullied and emotionally beaten down that did all that.

How that relates to reality...  The "fact" there is reality.  That's what really happened, regardless of what filters it went through when I processed it.  And I think that's what you're talking about when you're talking about walls and oxygen molecules.  But...  The feelings that I experienced when I processed it were also reality, regardless of what the facts of the matter were.  It might not have been the reality of the situation as it happened, but it became my reality as I reacted.  And I think that's what Lemon Verbena's talking about.

Star, you understood my view perfectly, thanks for your input.

[Lemon Verbena]

The thing about this that gets me is that the idea that what we perceive changes what is often says, to some extent or another, that what we believe CHANGES THE GODS.  Or the afterlife.  Or something along those lines.  and THAT is where my brain starts to sizzle merrily away in my skull.

I can believe that our perception changes how we SEE that reality.  How we interact with it.  But just like a wall is a wall and oxygen is oxygen, the universe is as it is.  We might know more or less about it, but it doesn't change based on what we know.  WE change.

I cannot believe that religious issues modify based on our belief like that.  It grants a primacy to the individual human that makes me want to curl into the fetal position and twitch.  In fact, if it IS true, I want a new universe.

Reality doesn't give a crap what we believe.  It does what it's going to do anyway, and we just have to live with it.

See, we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I appreciate your viewpoint, but I personally feel that reality does in fact give a crap what we believe. I can't explain in properly.

[mandrina]

See, we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I appreciate your viewpoint, but I personally feel that reality does in fact give a crap what we believe. I can't explain in properly.

reality, or the invisible upg reality of religion?

Cause I don't care how much you believe that that wall is not a wall, it is still a wall and you will have to figure a way around it other than going straight through if you don't want to leave a hole in it. 

The invisible UPG of religion, yeah, there can be some 'belief affect it' if you want to believe that, it really won't make any difference to anyone else, and you can't prove one way or the other anyhow.

[mandy1216]

I suspect it has something to do with a 3 dimensional creature trying to understand a multi dimensional universe. We may be able to conceive if the idea, but may never really GROK it.

That's what I was trying to say! Thanks for having better functioning brain cells.

[BGMarc]

That's what I was trying to say! Thanks for having better functioning brain cells.

In which case I have the same question for you that I had for Rowanfox How can people existin a different number of dimensions to the universe around them and how can we possibly interact with the rest of the universe if that is the case? Maybe it hinges on what you mean by dimension, and on whether you are using the same definition to apply to both people and the universe. It seems that you are using one word to mean two things in the same sentence. Very confused

[mandy1216]

In which case I have the same question for you that I had for Rowanfox How can people existin a different number of dimensions to the universe around them and how can we possibly interact with the rest of the universe if that is the case? Maybe it hinges on what you mean by dimension, and on whether you are using the same definition to apply to both people and the universe. It seems that you are using one word to mean two things in the same sentence. Very confused

You've got me confused now too 

[BGMarc]

You've got me confused now too 

It seemed to me that you were both saying that the universe exists in some number of dimensions, but that human beings exist in some smaller number of dimensions. I have trouble understanding how the two could interact. I keep getting this image of me (a '3 dimensional' thing) trying to pick up a triangle (a '2 dimensional' thing); as in an actual triangle, not just a drawing of one. In typing this I am starting to get a glimmer of how alternatives might work, but I am still very keen to hear what you meant in the first place (rather than what my sluggish mind is starting to wring from it).

[Rowanfox]

It seemed to me that you were both saying that the universe exists in some number of dimensions, but that human beings exist in some smaller number of dimensions. I have trouble understanding how the two could interact. I keep getting this image of me (a '3 dimensional' thing) trying to pick up a triangle (a '2 dimensional' thing); as in an actual triangle, not just a drawing of one. In typing this I am starting to get a glimmer of how alternatives might work, but I am still very keen to hear what you meant in the first place (rather than what my sluggish mind is starting to wring from it).

What I was saying is that human being may only percieve in a smaller number of dimensions. Contrary to what some here insist, what we percieve is not all of reality. Quantum ohysics is a perfect example. We can theorize about it, and observe some of the interactions about it, but we can't TODAY, truly see it or understand it.

BUT.......there is reality in existence at the sub atomic level.

So, what I am theorizing is that there may be other things about the universe that are simply either beyond our ablility to percieve, or beyond our current ability to even concieve.

We can quite happily exist in our world without ever comprehending that there is more to it than we can see, feel taste, touch or hear.

Also, in the context of this particular thread, the term belief may have multiple meanings. There is belief as in those bound to a particular religious or spritual practice, and there is belief like HeartShadow's granite commitment to the Ultimate Truth About Reality. These are not necessarily the same thing for the purpose of discussing reality vs percieved reality.

Like the character in the Matrix bending the spoon, who says to bend the spoon you have to realize there is no spoon. That charcter understood the most unusual nature of his reality, even though being unaware of the true nature of the Matrix. So, he set aside belief in his tactile world, and was able to influence the world on another dimension.

Now, I realize this is just a movie, but the concepts it deals with are not new. There is a school of thought that speculates that in fact the reality we percieve is not as we believe it to be. Just liek in the Matrix, if you jump off abuilding you will fall and die. But, this particular school of thought is that you only understood the true nature of reality, or more of reality than you can percieve, you might in fact not fall at all.

This is some brain bending stuff, I admit. But as each succesive generation breaks new barriers in our understanding of Life the Universe and Everything, it also opens the mind and conciousness to alternate thought patterns as well. Scientists can speculate now, in the 21st century, that in fact some matter can exist in two places at the same time..... a thought that in the last century would have had the physicist locked away in a padded cell. This is a tiny part of our emerging reality that we are glimpsing right now. 200 years from now.......who knows?

[mandy1216]

So, what I am theorizing is that there may be other things about the universe that are simply either beyond our ablility to percieve, or beyond our current ability to even conceive.

This is what I mean. There is a world around us that is simply beyond our comprehension. I'm not saying human beings are limited, or that our perception makes us lesser creatures. It just is what it is. I don't think you can understand what God/dess really is. It's beyond that. The moral compass, or lack thereof, of something so different from us allows us to meditate and ponder the question, but in this incarnation I do not believe we can really get to the meat of the issue, or to a level of true comprehension.

I didn't mean to focus on the implications of multidimensional theory, or suggest that divinity somehow resides there (although some may argue that it does just that). It's just another example of the WTF! that is out there. The core of what I am trying desperately to get at is that as humans, we are limited in our perception and ability to perceive and comprehend some of the stuff around us and beyond us.

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