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Author Topic: Is self-identification with Paganism what makes a Pagan?  (Read 14649 times)
AmberHeart
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« Reply #30: June 27, 2010, 10:55:54 am »

I'm not sure what you're asking, but the fact is I question my reactions to lots of experiences, especially if the reactions are strong.  I try to take a step back when I get angry with someone.  Or develop a crush.  Or when I feel depressed.  I try to find the rational root of my experiences.  Religious experiences are no different.

Brina

Rational root = logos. Good for practical reasons.

I've never found such compatiable with the purpose of mythos (religious) experiences but that is my mileage.

Thanks for responding.

Amber

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« Reply #31: June 27, 2010, 11:04:36 am »

Rational root = logos. Good for practical reasons.

I've never found such compatiable with the purpose of mythos (religious) experiences but that is my mileage.

I guess it depends on how far you're willing to extend the concept of mythology.  The manner in which I reason, the fact that a human animal can reason...well, that's Deep Mythos to me.  The topics are intertwined.

Brina
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« Reply #32: June 28, 2010, 03:45:52 pm »

Rational root = logos. Good for practical reasons.

I've never found such compatiable with the purpose of mythos (religious) experiences but that is my mileage.

Thanks for responding.

Amber



I am going to have to agree with Yewberry here - the 2 cannot be separated.  i am not 2 people - rational and irrational.  I am a single complicated person who experiences things on many levels at the same time.  I can use the rational to understand the experience of the irrational.
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« Reply #33: June 28, 2010, 07:31:12 pm »

Rational root = logos. Good for practical reasons.

I've never found such compatiable with the purpose of mythos (religious) experiences but that is my mileage.

Thanks for responding.

Amber



Do you think pathos would be more appropriate?

Sperran
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AmberHeart
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« Reply #34: June 29, 2010, 08:33:50 am »

I am going to have to agree with Yewberry here - the 2 cannot be separated.  i am not 2 people - rational and irrational.  I am a single complicated person who experiences things on many levels at the same time.  I can use the rational to understand the experience of the irrational.

Let me expand a bit on what I actually wrote because I don't believe we are in disagreement here.

Mythos (your irrational although I would never use that term for mythos) has a purpose. Logos (rational) has a purpose. These purposes are not interchangeable but they are utterly entwined, compatiable and not in competition with each other. To forego either is to improvish the other.

Logos/the rational must be used to understand how to enact, ground and bring back the changes that occur for an individual whenever he/she experiences the mythos/the irrational.

Mythos/the irrational must be used to understand the bigger (spiritual) picture within which we choose to enact, ground and change by helping us to connect into, define and believe in that which is greater than ourselves. Deep Mythos does indeed work here as a description by the way but mythos is not the same thing as mythology.

Logos/the rational is necessary to build the framework and preparatory disciplines that lead someone into the 'right place at right time' to individually participate within and experience mythos/the irrational.

Logos/the rational is literally formatted to be shared. Mythos/the irrational remains uniquely first-hand, never duplicated from individual to individual.

Logos/the rational can be articulated, written down, taught and passed on. Mythos/the irrational cannot be in any form that truly encapsulates the first-hand experience(s) involved. Humans keep trying and failing at this down through the centuries. 

Together these compatiable and complementary modes of thought/experience make a wholeness that should not be seperated and cannot be without damage to the individual. Yet this wholeness does not have a single purpose nor does it consist of interchangeable purposes.

I have therefore found that trying to use logos/the rational to validate mythos/the irrational tends to disempower the purpose(s) of both. I have to meet anyone who truly can do this on a meaningful yet useful level. That is what caught my interest at this point of the conversation. My mileage not requiring to be in agreement as well.

Thank you both for sharing yours.

Amber
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« Reply #35: June 29, 2010, 11:55:19 am »

Logos/the rational can be articulated, written down, taught and passed on. Mythos/the irrational cannot be in any form that truly encapsulates the first-hand experience(s) involved. Humans keep trying and failing at this down through the centuries. 

I would add to this:  religious Mysteries are the closest people have come to being able to give people a consistent what-you're-calling-mythos experience.  This is why people in Mystery religions get picky about people claiming membership who have not been through the relevant mysteries - they are pretty much inevitably riffing on different mythos.
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« Reply #36: June 29, 2010, 12:15:38 pm »



I have therefore found that trying to use logos/the rational to validate mythos/the irrational tends to disempower the purpose(s) of both.

This is what I disagree with.
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« Reply #37: June 29, 2010, 12:26:05 pm »

This is what I disagree with.

I find that not using my rational and irrational parts of my psyche/personality/whatever to validate all of my experiences, working together, just makes for a bad trip. I have to logically know the difference between a spiritual experience and when I'm just making up some wish-fulfilling "vision." Likewise, I have to know when to listen to my gut instincts about people and situations when I don't have empirical evidence to work with. But I don't think I'd be comfortable ever turning off one of those facets in favor of the other.
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« Reply #38: June 29, 2010, 12:28:18 pm »

This is what I disagree with.

<nods> Minutely dissecting something awesome can indeed be a buzz-kill, but that doesn't mean logic gets tossed out the window whenever mystical shit visits.

Brina
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« Reply #39: June 29, 2010, 01:16:28 pm »

<nods> Minutely dissecting something awesome can indeed be a buzz-kill, but that doesn't mean logic gets tossed out the window whenever mystical shit visits.

Brina

That is so perfectly said.

I'm trying to use my logic more these days, especially when it comes to the mystical shit, because for so long I've relied on my gut instinct and not much else. Which has kept me alive, but not happy or any more enlightened than before.

If you don't mind, I'd like to use your words as a standard to set myself by.
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« Reply #40: June 29, 2010, 01:20:05 pm »

<nods> Minutely dissecting something awesome can indeed be a buzz-kill, but that doesn't mean logic gets tossed out the window whenever mystical shit visits.

Brina

XD Exactly. I need this up on my wall.
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« Reply #41: June 29, 2010, 02:06:14 pm »

<nods> Minutely dissecting something awesome can indeed be a buzz-kill, but that doesn't mean logic gets tossed out the window whenever mystical shit visits.

Brina

Precisely
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« Reply #42: June 29, 2010, 02:15:26 pm »

<nods> Minutely dissecting something awesome can indeed be a buzz-kill, but that doesn't mean logic gets tossed out the window whenever mystical shit visits.

Brina

I am now seeing myself being visited by The Mystical Shit.

....eeeewwwwwwww
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« Reply #43: June 29, 2010, 02:33:12 pm »

I find that not using my rational and irrational parts of my psyche/personality/whatever to validate all of my experiences, working together, just makes for a bad trip.

Technically in reply to Ellen, but really to most of the thread and this is just a convenient place to hang the question:  Do y'all draw a distinction between "validating" experiences and "understanding" them?

I ask because when Amber was talking about validation, I read that as...  sort of seeking self-approval, I guess, looking for a feeling of "it's OK for me to have this mystical experience, it's a valid experience".  When other people are responding to it, though, I get more of a feeling that validation is being interpreted as "I need to understand this experience and what it means or doesn't mean and why I might have had it, including any mundane and rational causes".  I definitely agree that the latter is a necessary process to go through with any experience (mystical or otherwise), but I'm not as sure about the former.  I'm not sure I exactly understand what would make an experience "valid"--or, rather, I'm not sure how I understand how an experience could be invalid.

My brainspace is a little crowded lately, though, and I know my thought processes are a little cloudy, so I wasn't sure if I was maybe reading one side or the other incorrectly, or if I'm just way out in left field here, or what.
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« Reply #44: June 29, 2010, 02:50:57 pm »

I'm not sure I exactly understand what would make an experience "valid"--or, rather, I'm not sure how I understand how an experience could be invalid.

"Valid" is a word like "need"; people treat it as if it has some kind of sensical meaning outside a context, and then other people pick contexts at random.

If someone's going to say that something is valid, they need to say for what or as what.  My mystical experiences validly inform my interactions with the entities they attach to, but they do not validly stamp my parking stub.
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