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Author Topic: Deities from different pantheons?  (Read 9035 times)
artist97
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« Reply #15: April 03, 2010, 10:56:37 pm »

The only problem with all this is that the MMC is a modern paradigm.  Frazier and Graves may have crammed the Greek goddesses into it, but there is no support for it anywhere in the original myths.

Aside from that, Frazier, Graves, Murray, and Gimbutas are discredited precisely because of the liberties they take, as well as for inadequate scholarship in these areas.  They are not authoritative sources.

If people's hackles are raised by your assumptions they are perfectly at liberty to express that within our rules.  You can defend your assertions with sources, which may or may not be acceptable to the people you are responding to, and may or may not be argued with.  That's how it works here.

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      Which original myths? Those of Hesiod?? Smiley

      Take a look at chapter 17 in "The Golden Ass" by Apuleius. Surely he was onsite and a member of the worship of a genuine goddess: Isis.

      He describes the feminine goddess in all her aspects, including Artemis.

      That is straight from the - - - asses mouth Smiley

       Have you not read that book?
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« Reply #16: April 03, 2010, 11:32:28 pm »

      Which original myths? Those of Hesiod?? Smiley

Among others.  There is absolutely nothing in the original myths that supports Maiden, Mother, Crone.  Nor is it evident that all goddesses are really just aspects of a single goddess.  In Greek Mythology, you have Aphrodite and Persephone (both of whom would probably fit the "maiden" personality archetype) fighting over a single mortal man (one version even says that Persephone orchestrated said mortal's death so he would be her's forever).  Then you have Hera brutally beating Artemis over the head with her own bow (and calling her a hussy before doing it) in The Iliad.  I'm sure that I could find more examples from other pantheons if I had the time.  If all of these ladies were really the same goddess than why would she be this self-destructive?

Quote
      Take a look at chapter 17 in "The Golden Ass" by Apuleius. Surely he was onsite and a member of the worship of a genuine goddess: Isis.

      He describes the feminine goddess in all her aspects, including Artemis.

      That is straight from the - - - asses mouth Smiley

       Have you not read that book?

First of all, you can not expect everyone to have read the same books that you have.  Second, Apuleius studied Platonist philosophy and was involved with a handful of mystery cults.  Both groups tended to believe different things in the population at large.
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« Reply #17: April 03, 2010, 11:59:53 pm »

Among others.  There is absolutely nothing in the original myths that supports Maiden, Mother, Crone.  Nor is it evident that all goddesses are really just aspects of a single goddess.  In Greek Mythology, you have Aphrodite and Persephone (both of whom would probably fit the "maiden" personality archetype) fighting over a single mortal man (one version even says that Persephone orchestrated said mortal's death so he would be her's forever).  Then you have Hera brutally beating Artemis over the head with her own bow (and calling her a hussy before doing it) in The Iliad.  I'm sure that I could find more examples from other pantheons if I had the time.  If all of these ladies were really the same goddess than why would she be this self-destructive?

First of all, you can not expect everyone to have read the same books that you have.  Second, Apuleius studied Platonist philosophy and was involved with a handful of mystery cults.  Both groups tended to believe different things in the population at large.

      Marilyn, I agree with your points about the Triple Goddess but also see truth in Graves and Frazier.

      When you have a chance take a look at the info on Gebekli Tepe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobekli_Tepe

      This is the oldest structure in the world. So far. The archaeologist who discovered it tends towards seeing it as a temple but I think there is strong evidence for regarding it as an observatory where the images represent the Zodiac.

     Tim Stephany has a nice bit on this at:

http://timothystephany.com/gobekli.html

      What I am driving at is that sometimes we try to assign modern concepts of religion to ancient, pre-writing cultural artifacts.

      Take the so-called "Venus" statues from 20,000 years ago. Do they represent a goddess? The men (!) who first assigned the name to them thought so, but were they truly religious in nature? Darned if I know.

       In Mesoamerica and Classical Greece, games were religious; a concept foreign to us now.

       What we don't know would fill a book.

       I'm a fan of Inanna. She had no trouble having sex with Damuzi and is, IMHO, the perfect goddess.

       She was a regular girl with all the pluses and minuses of any human female.

       What do you think of the "Red Book"; "Inanna: Queen of heaven and Earth"?

         I am enthralled by the way Wolkstein used her poetic sensibility to bring the Sumerian hymns to life.

                       Arne

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« Reply #18: April 04, 2010, 07:15:57 am »


Er - what the heck are you even trying to say here?  I'm totally lost.

As far as whether or not goddesses have sex - some do, some don't.  What's your point?
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« Reply #19: April 04, 2010, 08:12:41 am »

      Marilyn, I agree with your points about the Triple Goddess but also see truth in Graves and Frazier.

Both of whom are not highly thought of by most Hellenic Pagans. Frazier's works of armchair folklore are considered pretty much rubbish (by scholars as well) as he tried to force-fit all the myths and folklore he heard about into his grand scheme ignoring what the various peoples who told/believed the tales actually believed about them (sort of like some Christians do when they tell a non-Christian there Gods are really just Satan in disguise).  Graves took a poetic view of things and much poetic license at times (and admits such).

Another thing to remember is that what the Greeks believed varied with time and place. Hekate of classical Greece was quite different than Hecate of the late Roman era. The "Great Mother" Isis cult was popular in the Roman era, sweeping the Mediterranean area, but Isis wasn't even worshiped by the  Classic era Greeks and her "Great Mother" version wasn't even around in Egypt until later.

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« Reply #20: April 04, 2010, 11:31:47 am »

Er - what the heck are you even trying to say here?  I'm totally lost.

As far as whether or not goddesses have sex - some do, some don't.  What's your point?

         Just trying to show that there were different "Dianas" at different times and in different places. I am suspicious of absolutist versions of mythology which take the relatively recent concept of the chaste female as some sort of norm.

        Inanna is a good 2000 years before even the archaic Greeks got around to writing down their myths.

        And as far as "Hellenic" pagans, that religion owes more to the un-scholarly musings of Gerald Gardner , Margaret Murray, Margot Adler, and Miriam Simos than to any real writings of actual pagans from antiquity.
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« Reply #21: April 04, 2010, 12:09:24 pm »

And as far as "Hellenic" pagans, that religion owes more to the un-scholarly musings of Gerald Gardner , Margaret Murray, Margot Adler, and Miriam Simos than to any real writings of actual pagans from antiquity.

Where is your source for this claim?
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« Reply #22: April 04, 2010, 12:28:59 pm »

        And as far as "Hellenic" pagans, that religion owes more to the un-scholarly musings of Gerald Gardner , Margaret Murray, Margot Adler, and Miriam Simos than to any real writings of actual pagans from antiquity.

::HEADDESK::

If you actually did ANY research you would know how grossly inaccurate this is.
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« Reply #23: April 04, 2010, 05:23:08 pm »

        And as far as "Hellenic" pagans, that religion owes more to the un-scholarly musings of Gerald Gardner , Margaret Murray, Margot Adler, and Miriam Simos than to any real writings of actual pagans from antiquity.

Actually, Hellenic Paganism doesn't owe much, if anything to the founders and scholars of Wicca. These are completely different Pagan religions. See the Greek page in our Reconstructionism section.
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« Reply #24: April 04, 2010, 06:14:31 pm »

         Just trying to show that there were different "Dianas" at different times and in different places. I am suspicious of absolutist versions of mythology which take the relatively recent concept of the chaste female as some sort of norm.

        Inanna is a good 2000 years before even the archaic Greeks got around to writing down their myths.

        And as far as "Hellenic" pagans, that religion owes more to the un-scholarly musings of Gerald Gardner , Margaret Murray, Margot Adler, and Miriam Simos than to any real writings of actual pagans from antiquity.

but Inanna ISN'T DIANA.

I can prove that my neighbor has sex (hell, she's got two kids) - that says NOTHING about me, or my neighbor on the other side.

There's CERTAINLY nothing claiming the Greeks as a WHOLE were celibate, so arguing Inanna vs. Diana as though that's some kind of absolute measuring stick is WEIRD.
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« Reply #25: April 04, 2010, 06:38:03 pm »

Actually, Hellenic Paganism doesn't owe much, if anything to the founders and scholars of Wicca. These are completely different Pagan religions. See the Greek page in our Reconstructionism section.

       There are many paths in modern Paganism. Are some more valid than others?

       So little is truly known of the practices of the past. Thank goodness that the Sumerians used clay tablets!

       I refuse to argue more.

                        Blessings to All
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« Reply #26: April 04, 2010, 06:46:22 pm »

       There are many paths in modern Paganism. Are some more valid than others?

       So little is truly known of the practices of the past. Thank goodness that the Sumerians used clay tablets!

       I refuse to argue more.

                        Blessings to All

valid has nothing to do with DIFFERENT.  Which is the only thing Randall is saying there.
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« Reply #27: April 04, 2010, 07:38:12 pm »

I am suspicious of absolutist versions of mythology which take the relatively recent concept of the chaste female as some sort of norm.

You're contradicting yourself.  This all started when you said, "Diana is a beautiful goddess and was sorely maligned by the Greeks who said she was chaste."  Which seems to suggest that the concept of the chaste female, at least as relates to goddesses, is not "relatively recent".  Which is it?  And can you please cite your source for the idea that the concept of the chaste goddess is relatively recent?

Homer, in his hymn to Aphrodite (#5), not only cites Artemis as chaste, but also Athena and Hestia.  That's a funny definition of "relatively recent".  He also says that other than those three, there's no one who can escape Aphrodite's influence, not even Zeus himself, so obviously it's not "some sort of norm".  I don't think anyone was arguing that chastity was the norm, just that it did sometimes put in an appearance.

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        And as far as "Hellenic" pagans, that religion owes more to the un-scholarly musings of Gerald Gardner , Margaret Murray, Margot Adler, and Miriam Simos than to any real writings of actual pagans from antiquity.

While you're citing sources, I'd love to know where you found this information.  You seem to be suffering under a number of misapprehensions.  Other people have addressed the "uh, not so much with Recons" end of it, but I'll also point out that there's not really a unified "Hellenic pagan" religion.  There's a rather broad range of things that falls under "Hellenic"; the word only really indicates that Greece is involved in some way, shape, or form, and doesn't specify how.  I'm sure that some Hellenic pagans fit the description you're giving here, but "some" is not nearly "all".
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« Reply #28: April 04, 2010, 07:40:33 pm »

       There are many paths in modern Paganism. Are some more valid than others?

No one said anything about validity.  Your information is incorrect.  On this forum, when someone presents incorrect information, it tends to be questioned and corrected.  If you find that sort of "arguing" troublesome, this may not be the right place for you.
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« Reply #29: April 04, 2010, 08:46:36 pm »

       There are many paths in modern Paganism. Are some more valid than others?

I think saying "there are many different Pagan religions." This is a bit stronger than saying "many paths in modern Paganism" which makes it sound like denominations of one religion. And Paganism is just an umbrella term for many different religions, some of which have little in common with each other.

More valid? I'm not even sure what you mean. Some are certainly based more on documented history than ours, but that's not the same thing.

Your claim that all goddesses are one is probably a minority position on this board (which isn't a problem unless you are going to insist we accept this as fact as many will not do so). Your apparent position that all goddesses have sex or they are somehow defective or a product of a defective society or whatever is probably a minority position in Paganism, which is fine too but expect people here to argue with you over it because it does not match their mythology (which has a virgin and/or chaste goddess) and/or because the claim seems somewhat sexist.
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