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Author Topic: Special Discussion: An It Harm None, Do What You Will  (Read 20514 times)
Akyana
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« Reply #15: April 18, 2010, 05:27:03 pm »

Y'know, I really don't see what karma has to do with the fact that cancer cells have to die for cancer to go away.

Sure, it would be nice if there was a happy way for them to just go "oops, my bad" and turn into rainbow sprinkles, but reality doesn't WORK that way.

I had bread as part of my lunch.  The wheat had to die to become my bread.  And I'm NOT giving up food to preserve other lives - that would just be killing me!

Yes,

thats how it works within human field.
And lololol, karma has got everything to do with it,
as karma has got to do with everything at all.

But what I was trying to say is,
that..imagine a gang members.
They
kill each other and whoever they see as an enemy.
Thats the way it goes there.

If you happen to be the gang member,
you see prolly no way out.
And truly..the way out is pretty hard to find and is extremelly dangerous.

But it does exist.

We, as human beings are basically such gang members.

We think the rules though they are shocking are OK.

But they are not.

And the way out starts in our hearts where we refuse them,
though we still somehow have to comply till we are gone from the gang for good.

Thats why they wrote the rede as they did.

They were neither stupid..nor naive.
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« Reply #16: April 18, 2010, 05:48:36 pm »

We, as human beings are basically such gang members.

We think the rules though they are shocking are OK.

But they are not.

And the way out starts in our hearts where we refuse them,
though we still somehow have to comply till we are gone from the gang for good.

Thats why they wrote the rede as they did.

They were neither stupid..nor naive.

The problem with this is that the world just does not work this way.  For something to live, something else must die.  Unless you have found a way to survive in which you can not hurt any living organism (including eating, breathing, using antibiotics to fight disease, scrub your kitchen countertops, et cetera) there is no way out of the cycle.  Unless you mean that death is the end, in which I would point out that the body naturally decomposes and provides nutrients for plants.  The plants are killed by animals so they can live and the process continues until something cosmic (the sun turning into a supernova, the solar system getting swallowed by a black hole) happens to end it.
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« Reply #17: April 18, 2010, 08:42:56 pm »

The problem with this is that the world just does not work this way.  

The world as we know it.

Thats something else.

Maybe we can aspire to become part of totally different world,
where the rules are different?

Maybe we can change what seems inevitable?

Many things that seems like they are just the way they are,
are in fact not fixed in that way at all.
They just seem so.

Because it is so vivid and most of us understands it in the same way,
we take it as the TRUTH.

But the only Truth I can think of is, that all is illusionary as a dream
and as a dream it is subject of change.
And as in a dream there are no fixed laws.

Anyway...

It would be sad, if pagans would give up on the inherent goodness coming from rede.

I actually always liked this board because it kept it.

Unlike magickal forums, that go with the fashion that black magick is cool
and to be good you have to be evil.

Such world make me sad.

And I know its not about me,
who cares about my feelings...
but it still makes me sad.



« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 08:46:26 pm by Akyana » Logged
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« Reply #18: April 18, 2010, 09:00:10 pm »

Maybe we can aspire to become part of totally different world,
where the rules are different?

Maybe we can change what seems inevitable?

Many things that seems like they are just the way they are,
are in fact not fixed in that way at all.
They just seem so.

Akyana,

Your perspective on the world is interesting.  And I'm not going to say you're wrong. 

But, to me, you seem to be saying that we should strive to find a way to live without causing other beings, however microscopic, to die.  That seems to violate the rules of nature, but more than that, it seems to be based on the premise that death is bad or evil.

I don't think that's the case.  Death is simply another part of the cycle.  It's not negative, it just is.  So, personally, I don't see a problem with the kind of "harm" caused simply by living.  As Mel pointed out, nothing CAN live without something else dying.  But that just means that all organisms have their place in the "circle of life".  Again, not bad or evil.

Or maybe I misunderstood your point?

Just my 2 cents.  Cheesy
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« Reply #19: April 18, 2010, 09:01:42 pm »

It would be sad, if pagans would give up on the inherent goodness coming from rede.

I actually always liked this board because it kept it.

er - Paganism as a whole does NOT follow the Rede.  Wicca and some similar religions do - and even then, it isn't "harm none".

This board does not have the Rede as one of its rules.  It is not even considered a guideline here.

And personally, I've always felt that when ideology and reality clash, reality WINS.  You don't have to like it, you don't have to believe it - but reality doesn't give a hoot.  I can disbelieve in a truck coming at me all I want, or that angels will save me or I'll be out of phase with the truck and it won't touch me or anything else I want - truck's still gonna smush me.

Reality WINS.  It might be a more complicated reality than we realized - there may be more to it, or something else that we don't know about to begin with - but reality as it is WILL win.  Denying it just sets us up to get hit by that truck.
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« Reply #20: April 18, 2010, 09:12:08 pm »

Akyana,

Your perspective on the world is interesting.  And I'm not going to say you're wrong. 

But, to me, you seem to be saying that we should strive to find a way to live without causing other beings, however microscopic, to die.  That seems to violate the rules of nature, but more than that, it seems to be based on the premise that death is bad or evil.

I don't think that's the case.  Death is simply another part of the cycle.  It's not negative, it just is.  So, personally, I don't see a problem with the kind of "harm" caused simply by living.  As Mel pointed out, nothing CAN live without something else dying.  But that just means that all organisms have their place in the "circle of life".  Again, not bad or evil.

Or maybe I misunderstood your point?

Just my 2 cents.  Cheesy

Moon Ivy,

I do not take death as something evil.
Death is part of it all, part of the change and new opportunity for the being.

But if we say we have to kill...
then we decide we have to take life consciously and life that is clinging to its existence.
As I do not want to be killed, nothing wants to be killed.
Killing mostly brings pain and some kind of agony.

For us in human body so far it sems impossible not to kill.
And for ordinary people it indeed is.

One more reason to try to stay away from killing or harming on purpose.

I can see that killing cancer cells can look like a good idea,
but imo even better idea is to use the love for the ill person and God(dess)
and use love instead of fear and anger.

Because as we all know I think, love is most powerful,
because its real and connecting, harmonising and empowering.
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« Reply #21: April 18, 2010, 09:18:38 pm »

er - Paganism as a whole does NOT follow the Rede.  Wicca and some similar religions do - and even then, it isn't "harm none".

This board does not have the Rede as one of its rules.  It is not even considered a guideline here.

And personally, I've always felt that when ideology and reality clash, reality WINS.  You don't have to like it, you don't have to believe it - but reality doesn't give a hoot.  I can disbelieve in a truck coming at me all I want, or that angels will save me or I'll be out of phase with the truck and it won't touch me or anything else I want - truck's still gonna smush me.

Reality WINS.  It might be a more complicated reality than we realized - there may be more to it, or something else that we don't know about to begin with - but reality as it is WILL win.  Denying it just sets us up to get hit by that truck.

If its your reality..then naturally no angels can save you.
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« Reply #22: April 18, 2010, 09:23:25 pm »

I can see that killing cancer cells can look like a good idea,
but imo even better idea is to use the love for the ill person and God(dess)
and use love instead of fear and anger.

Because as we all know I think, love is most powerful,
because its real and connecting, harmonising and empowering.


OK, here is where I have a real problem with this. My mother died from cancer and, trust me, all the love in the world wasn't going to keep it from happening. I understand the point you're trying to make but, put simply, reality is just that...reality.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 10:43:31 pm by RandallS, Reason: Quote BBCode Fixed » Logged

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« Reply #23: April 18, 2010, 09:25:12 pm »

OK, here is where I have a real problem with this. My mother died from cancer and, trust me, all the love in the world wasn't going to keep it from happening. I understand the point you're trying to make but, put simply, reality is just that...reality.

Love wont make our mums bodies immortal, ((sanctuary))

Reality is what you belive it is, thats all.
And I dont mean believe in head.
I mean deeply in your heart, in your whole being.
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« Reply #24: April 18, 2010, 09:25:51 pm »

double post
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« Reply #25: April 18, 2010, 09:29:37 pm »

If its your reality..then naturally no angels can save you.

I've known many people with deep-felt belief that they would get *saved* if something went wrong.

So far, I've yet to see it happen.

Faith in angels might be a good thing, but getting the hell out of the way of the truck is a lot more effective!
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« Reply #26: April 18, 2010, 09:30:08 pm »



Reality is what you belive it is, thats all.
And I dont mean believe in head.
I mean deeply in your heart, in your whole being.

Then explain to me how the killing of cancer cells is a bad idea. People suffer, sometimes for years, due to every type of cancer. People die every day from it. How then can you say that it's somehow 'wrong' to kill those cells? Or have I just missed something in this conversation?
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« Reply #27: April 18, 2010, 09:31:28 pm »

Faith in angels might be a good thing, but getting the hell out of the way of the truck is a lot more effective!

Agreed!
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« Reply #28: April 18, 2010, 09:39:30 pm »

Then explain to me how the killing of cancer cells is a bad idea. People suffer, sometimes for years, due to every type of cancer. People die every day from it. How then can you say that it's somehow 'wrong' to kill those cells? Or have I just missed something in this conversation?
Well,

this thread is about the Rede.

And the "harm none" part of it.

Obviously to save the body when it has cancer condition the doctors go through procedure that some cells wont survive.
And not just the "bad" ones.

But...I am just trying my best to say,
that the fact that killing and harming is all around us doesnt mean its natural and should be taken as such.
It might be natural for lions, it might be natural for most humanity.
But maybe now time is ripe to aspire to evolve a bit?
For the part of humanity that is ready?
And maybe the rest will catch up?

Dunno, you know...I never felt home here.
Ideas and realities of humanity are cool with me, as long as I dont have to stay on this planet for too long.
Gee!!

Still, some human beings are extremely good and one can just bow with awe at their level of awareness.
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« Reply #29: April 18, 2010, 09:46:58 pm »

Well,

this thread is about the Rede.

And the "harm none" part of it.

There is no "harm none" part of it.  Any reading of it that comes away with "harm none" is flat-out wrong.
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