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Author Topic: Special Discussion: An It Harm None, Do What You Will  (Read 22039 times)
Akyana
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« Reply #30: April 18, 2010, 09:51:23 pm »

I've known many people with deep-felt belief that they would get *saved* if something went wrong.

So far, I've yet to see it happen.

Faith in angels might be a good thing, but getting the hell out of the way of the truck is a lot more effective!
I've known many people with deep-felt belief that they would get *saved* if something went wrong.

And can you judge what is really happening?
You see they broke their leg..maybe angels just saved their life and instead its just boken leg which,
incidentally, will prevent them going with their kids to visit their grandparents, that would cost this time life of their children.

As a human beings we are blinder then moles and to judge acts and protection of angels is rather silly imo.

Faith in angels might be a good thing, but getting the hell out of the way of the truck is a lot more effective!
Cant that be united?
People who believe in angel can be little stupid sometimes, I dont know,
but I dont think they test their faith by waiting the truck to hit them.
That would need very deep faith, and most of humans faith is just much too small.
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« Reply #31: April 18, 2010, 09:53:21 pm »

There is no "harm none" part of it.  Any reading of it that comes away with "harm none" is flat-out wrong.

"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

English is my second language
and its true its late.

I guess its time for my meds. Grin
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« Reply #32: April 18, 2010, 10:00:15 pm »

But...I am just trying my best to say,
that the fact that killing and harming is all around us doesnt mean its natural and should be taken as such.
It might be natural for lions, it might be natural for most humanity.
But maybe now time is ripe to aspire to evolve a bit?
For the part of humanity that is ready?
And maybe the rest will catch up?

Evolution takes thousands of generations, though.  Not to mention, there is no species that I'm aware of that has evolved beyond the need to sustain off of something that was once living.  If it was possible, than it probably would have happened by now.
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« Reply #33: April 18, 2010, 10:04:30 pm »

Evolution takes thousands of generations, though.  Not to mention, there is no species that I'm aware of that has evolved beyond the need to sustain off of something that was once living.  If it was possible, than it probably would have happened by now.

The evolution I was talking about takes thousands of lives,
but at the moment according to many, humanity is ready to take the next step in Awareness.

Change the mind and all will change.

Thats the Law.
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« Reply #34: April 18, 2010, 10:49:03 pm »

"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

English is my second language

"An" is an older and little used word that means "if" in more modern English. And the word "rede" is another older English word that means basically "advice" So the 8-word form of Wiccan Rede is giving the following moral advice (in modern English) "If you harm none, do what you will."

Note that it is not a command to "Harm none." Nor does it say anything about what to do if what you want to do will cause harm. It simply states that if what you want to do causes no harm, it's always going to be okay to do it. 
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« Reply #35: April 19, 2010, 06:09:43 am »

The evolution I was talking about takes thousands of lives,
but at the moment according to many, humanity is ready to take the next step in Awareness.

Change the mind and all will change.

Thats the Law.

my son BELIEVES, with all his heart, that he can go running into the street and not get hurt.  That he can run behind a swingset and not get hurt.  That he can do any damn thing he wants - and not get hurt.

Yet we've been to the ER with him twice for dislocated joints, and far more bumps and bruises from him ... getting hurt.

Reailyt WINS
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« Reply #36: April 19, 2010, 08:53:32 am »

"An" is an older and little used word that means "if" in more modern English. And the word "rede" is another older English word that means basically "advice" So the 8-word form of Wiccan Rede is giving the following moral advice (in modern English) "If you harm none, do what you will."

Note that it is not a command to "Harm none." Nor does it say anything about what to do if what you want to do will cause harm. It simply states that if what you want to do causes no harm, it's always going to be okay to do it. 

I'd like to leap off Randall's statement here to get back to the original post in the thread, which is my take. (It's been a weekend in which I was up for less online discussion than usual.)

My take on the Rede (as a priestess in an initiatory religious witchcraft tradition derived in part from, but not lineaged to British Traditional Wicca, goes like this:

The Rede advises that those things that do not harm, we should follow our will. Many people interpret this in the magical sense - Will, as it were - rather than whim, passing desire, etc. Those things that bring us closer to our major goals and life path, such as it is.

It doesn't say anything about a) what harm is, b) what we should do if something does cause harm, or c) who determines the harm, anyway. Or d) what to do when you're equating two different harms.

What's harm?

For me, it is something that actively destroys, limits, restricts, or otherwise removes choices from other people without their (reasonably informed) consent, and especially if it does so by force or in ways that cause long-term or permanent damage (whether physical, emotional, or mental.)

For non-people, I think harm is about disrupting the natural order of life for that being: it's possible (and okay, more common than not these days) to have a harmful method of farming or agriculture, but the sheer act of eating plants *or* animals is not necessarily harmful at base in the same way, especially if those things wouldn't exist otherwise.

You'll note that this definition removes things like surgery from the equation (assuming modern consent laws, etc.)

If something's going to cause harm:
I believe that deliberately choosing to do things that cause harm, limit other people's choices long-term, etc. is a decision that changes us. Me, personally, I prefer not to go down that road any more than I have to. That said, there are many many times every day in which I have to enforce a decision that might not be someone's preference. And in those many cases, seeking the way that's going to be least harmful is preferable.

I'm a school librarian. I do a lot of "Hey, can you finish that apple outside?" "Hey, can you not bounce that ball?" "No, sorry, we don't have laptops free this block" "Can you remember to bring that book back?" All of those are choice-limiting, but there are ways to do them that are clearly communicated, that are open to reasonable exceptions, and that are handled in a way where everyone in the school community can feel respected. Hence, those phrasings that remind of the rules gently, rather than "Take that apple outside right now, you idiot!" or something harsh.

Likewise, as a priestess of a small coven, I have lots of boundaries and limits on what I am and am not open to - some of these are due to specific commitments to the tradition. Some are due to my own needs and energy. I had a situation about a year ago, where someone was pretty clearly deeply hurt by my saying "Sorry, I really don't feel there's enough of a good fit for us to meet and see if there is one" from her initial email. But I'm not required to open myself to someone pushing on those carefully chosen limits - that'd do *me* harm. I can't help that she invested a huge amount in a single email - my responsibility has to stay with a) the good of the overall group b) my well-being and c) being as polite and gentle in my response as possible.

Who determines the harm?
I think by default, the person who is most affected by the situation gets to determine it. But in many cases, there may be a lot of harm to one person, but lesser parts to other people. That means that everyone needs to deal with the consequences of the choices - but it doesn't mean we should stop doing things that might cause any harm, either.

For example, the gay or lesbian (adult) child of parents who believe that homosexuality is a sin might be making them very unhappy by pursuing a loving, caring, partnered relationship. Someone in this situation is going to be unhappy no matter what choice is made, and it's arguable that there's harm in both cases - but most of us, I think, would realise that the harm of never having a desired loving relationship is more directly harmful than the parents having to deal with a conflict with their own beliefs, no matter how deeply held, because the parents are one step away from the individual's relationship. That said, there are varied ways for an adult child who knows their parents well to introduce this particular issue, some of which would have more potential for harm than others.

What does it mean when we do cause harm
Which, as noted above, we're going to do lots and lots and lots of the time. I think this is where other ethical constructs come in - the idea of what we do (and how we do it) returning to us in some manner, the idea that we do fundamentally changes us and our reality (because it's now in our history), and so on. Do I want to be the kind of person who has that in my personal history, or not?
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« Reply #37: April 19, 2010, 12:03:59 pm »



Tell you what.  Put your money where your mouth is.

I'll take you seriously when you can go a month without food, water, etc, and can bounce physical attacks off.  Until then, I think your ideas have no merit, and could ironically do a great deal of harm if people actually tried to live by them.
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« Reply #38: April 19, 2010, 12:12:59 pm »

The guideline really isn't vague, it's just not what many people think it is. It's not a moral command to "harm none" (which is impossible to fulfill anyway) but moral advice "if what you want to do will not cause any harm, then it is definitely okay to do it".  It tells you what is clearly okay to do, but says nothing about what do do if what you want to do will cause some amount of harm.

Most people forget that the rede was

1) a guideline, not a rule
2) originally use by a group that was an initiatory, coven based tradition; so yes, there was always plenty of oral lore and training around the rede (and other "laws") to help with understanding and interpretation.
3) NEVER intended as a stand alone golden rule to live life by!!!

Let's face it, that old standby sound bite from the other religion Thou Shalt Not Kill is not dis-similar. I don't see anyone saying it is vague, or hard to understand, or impossible to follow. We need to keep things things in perspective, yes?
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« Reply #39: April 20, 2010, 11:47:44 am »

So let's define those things:

    * What do you think harm means in the context of the Rede?

    * What do you think will means in the context of the Rede?

    * Why might the founders of Wicca given us an ethical guideline that was vague?

Note: I am not Wiccan. My answers are based on conversations I have had with Wiccan friends and my own interpretation.

In the context of the Rede, "harm" can mean anything from mild irritation to mortal injury. It is not necessarily a physical act. Anything that inconveniences another person can be interpreted as "harm".

In the context of the Rede, "will" is merely "what you please". I will to sleep in this morning. (Or try to, bloody roosters!) I will to cook spaghetti this evening. I will to perform ritual tonight. "Will" is a neat way of saying the various tenses of "to do".

(Speaking from outside, looking in) The founders of Wicca, I do hold, recognized that life is not clear cut. The only thing that is for certain is death. What happens on the way to our final moment is up in the air and prone to change in a quantum flicker. An action that may be acceptable in the morning, may be anathema after nightfall. An action freely embraced by one person, may be a mortal sin to another. The Rede is a moral compass, pointing in a different way for each person, but giving enough of a common direction so that its followers may be able to live peaceably with other Wiccans, and non-Wiccans in an equal way.

This whole business of vegan/omnivore, chemo/holistic, pacifist/militant, Belief Set A/Belief Set B... is irrelevant to the Rede. It all comes down to what path the individual person's conscious is taking them.
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« Reply #40: April 24, 2010, 04:11:00 pm »

I'd like to leap off Randall's statement here to get back to the original post in the thread, which is my take. (It's been a weekend in which I was up for less online discussion than usual.)

And, as usual, you've taken a lot of the words right out of my mouth...  Wink

It's very true that the first strains of Wicca were initiatory, coven-trained paths. It's also true that this isn't necessarily the case now. I meet a lot more solitary Wiccan and Wicc-ish witches and pagans than I meet who are coven-trained these days. But the Rede is one tenet that is still pushed in books and workshops for new seekers and solitaries.

I like to think that if there was some other big mystical teachings that were to go along with the Rede that someone would have published them by now. I know a lot of Traditional Wicca stuff is oathbound, but I've also seen how frustrated those folks get over misinterpretations of the Rede!  Wink

So... my take... Jenett's posted everything I'd have said on harm. But I have more comments.  Smiley

First, I think the whole statement is enormously freeing as an ethical precept. If it doesn't harm anyone, go ahead and do it. No "shalt nots", no "don't eat meat on Fridays or else!"... if you want to do it and it isn't causing harm, do it! So there's no guilt in an occasional cookie for breakfast, or playing hooky from work once in a while on a nice day, or making love with a consenting partner at 3 in the afternoon. Or being nude (where it isn't illegal)... the Rede allows us to understand that all acts of love and pleasure are of the Goddess.

Second, I think we really should think on the idea of "will" and what "will" means. I've discovered myself that the Rolling Stones have it right. We can't always get what we want, but if we try we can get what we need. Will is just that... what we need. When we work for what we need, things happen.

Case in point... I'm miserable at my old job. And I mean bullying supervisor, coming home crying every day, waking up crying in the morning, driven into therapy miserable at my job. I do a spell for the things I absolutely NEED in a new job, and within six months I get that job. Is it my dream job? Nope. But that wasn't what I needed.

Second example. Friends of mine needed to get out of the house they were renting. It's drafty, and it's a second-floor apartment. She's got mobility issues that make the stairs very difficult. They don't make a lot of money so they needed something decently cheap that wasn't too far from where they currently live. We talked about my theories on "need". I said that she should do spellwork for what she really needed in a new house and it would happen.

That was about six months ago, maybe less. They're getting ready to move into a new place that's what they need.  Grin

Now, I don't think anyone would get what they need if it's something that would cause harm. No matter how much spellwork I do wishing Rush Limbaugh would drop dead, I doubt it's going to happen because of me. Though there's some irony in how these evil right-wingers keep cheating death and my wonderful mother is now in the Summerlands, but... ah well.

What do y'all think about Will = need (as opposed to a want)? Do you have any experiences with this? Do you think this could be a derivative meaning of the Rede?

Karen
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« Reply #41: February 05, 2011, 05:43:37 pm »


What do y'all think about Will = need (as opposed to a want)? Do you have any experiences with this? Do you think this could be a derivative meaning of the Rede?

Karen

I posted my thoughts on this on another site recently and got the feedback that I was over thinking it a bit. Glad to be able to post it here wehere people seem a bit happier to probe and question.

"An it harm non, do what you will...."

The concept of "non" covers a multitude of concepts. Do we limit our definition to sentient life? To animal life? To life including plants? Am I breaking the rede if I ask a pest controller to remove an ants nest from my kitchen? Am I breaking the rede if I pick a flower?

How about if I define harm as changing the natural course of a life? Harm in the sense that without my intervention there would be no change. If I throw a rock into the sea I am effectively changing its destiny to be a dry rock. Under this interpretation I can see harm as pertaining to the inanimate as well as the living.

Can harm extend to myself? If I hurt myself for pleasure is that wrong because I am also causing myself harm? How about if the pleasure outweights the pain. Would I be harming myself more by denying myself the pleasure. Which one breaks the rede? Self harmers often state that they achieve psychological release from cutting themselves. Would this be considered to be against the rede?

What part does intention play in the rede? When I walk across a lawn, I crush many tiny insects underfoot. I am on a conscious level unaware of the specific harms I am causing. But it is still harm. My will to walk over the grass has caused harm to others. Is the fact that I do not intend the harm a mitigating factor.

It is equally possible that harm can be caused without knowledge as well as intent. I might walk through a door, not realise there is someone behind it and bang the door into them. I didn't know that my action would result in harm. Am I still morally culprable for causing that harm?

Can I play long term gain off against short term pain? Am I morally justified in ending the death of a terminally ill person, technically causing them harm if I am saving them from more pain and misery in the long term? By causing one type of harm I am saving them from another type of harm. Can I justify my actions in this way?

What is my will? Does the rede permit me to act on impulse or is will better defined on a course of action I have thought about or meditated on?

Even if an act causes no direct harm can all my will be acceptable? It may be my will to spend all my monthly wage on myself and never give any money to charity. Technically I am causing no harm to the charity except by fact that they would benefit more if I was a more generous person. But does that make my will right? Does it make it an acceptable lifestyle choice. Does it show a lack of moral imperative in the rede?

I am not the cause of harm to a drowning man in a lake when I choose to walk by. Except of course that my will to neglect to help may result in his death. But if neglect can constitute harm then where does this definition end. Am I causing harm when I don't neglect to contribute to every charity appeal on television? And even if I do, am I causing harm by not giving enough? How much is enough? How much do I need to give to stop causing harm?
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« Reply #42: February 06, 2011, 07:46:53 pm »

"if what you want to do will not cause any harm, then it is definitely okay to do it". 

That particular definition sounds like John Stuart Mill's version of libertarianism in "On Liberty".
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« Reply #43: February 07, 2011, 08:04:54 am »

That particular definition sounds like John Stuart Mill's version of libertarianism in "On Liberty".

I'd say it is fairly similar to Mill's definition of "liberty" in that it embodies the definition in some ways.
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« Reply #44: June 27, 2011, 05:05:20 am »

"An it harm non, do what you will...."

The concept of "non" covers a multitude of concepts. Do we limit our definition to sentient life? To animal life? To life including plants? Am I breaking the rede if I ask a pest controller to remove an ants nest from my kitchen? Am I breaking the rede if I pick a flower?

Your perspective is about where I've always started scratching my head. I once read an example someone used about this... it had to do with a situation where if a man was going to rape a woman would you harm him to save her? Not acting when you have the knowledge and opportunity to do so was seen as "harm". I've always disliked the idea of "ignorance is no excuse"... no one can know everything! If someone knows that harm is/will be done and they have a means of stopping it, even if it means doing harm, that person has to weigh the harms against each other. To the best of your knowledge, which would cause the greater harm? There is no way to live a perfectly harmless life... we are going to do harm. Personally I believe that the consequences (bad karma) will be greater if intentional harm is done without proper justification (kicking someone just because vs trying to get away from an attacker) although every situation is different for every person and their beliefs and deities. For example: The situation might be different if an attacker grabbed a grappling martial artist vs a taekwondoist. If the grappler kicks the attacker, that may be seen as unnecessary harm as they have been taught methods of holding someone helpless. Whereas the taekwondoist may have no other method of safety than to escape by using kicking techniques because that's what they have been taught. (I really hope that made sense... Undecided).

As for "...do as ye will" - my understanding is that most pagans perform magic by willing it... thinking about the outcome intentionally or sending their intentions out for a specific purpose or end. My thoughts.
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