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Author Topic: Arizona to allow concealed weapons without permit  (Read 8733 times)
Thorn
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« Reply #15: April 18, 2010, 02:36:57 pm »

The people of the South are often stereotyped as being big gun nuts.  As someone who lives in the South, I can verify this.
Well, I wasn't thinking specifically of "gun nuts," just that southern states are known to swing very conservative - and guns are a favorite issue of the right.  Most people, myself included before I moved to AZ, seem to think that's limited to Texas and points east.  Boy was I mistaken on that count - and it seems like something surfaces to remind me of that mistake on at least a weekly basis.

Personally, gun control is one area I swing pretty middle of the road on.  I can understand both sides of the issue, but I think concealed carry without a permit defies common sense.  If you want the gun to scare off the bad guys, wouldn't it be better if it were displayed prominently so they all knew you had it?  And wouldn't it be even better if they knew you had some sort of training in it's use so they'd be less tempted to try and take it away?
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« Reply #16: April 18, 2010, 05:29:24 pm »

The people of the South are often stereotyped as being big gun nuts.  As someone who lives in the South, I can verify this.

I lived in the South for 24 years and have never fired a gun. Emphasis on the word stereotype. It bothers me that, particularly on this board, there is a perception that all Southerners are gun-toting fundie rednecks. It's not necessarily true. In the case of unrestricted concealed carry states, especially, the "south" remark was completely unnecessary and in fact inaccurate, as 2 of the 3 states are well north of the middle.
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« Reply #17: April 18, 2010, 05:53:35 pm »

I lived in the South for 24 years and have never fired a gun. Emphasis on the word stereotype. It bothers me that, particularly on this board, there is a perception that all Southerners are gun-toting fundie rednecks. It's not necessarily true. In the case of unrestricted concealed carry states, especially, the "south" remark was completely unnecessary and in fact inaccurate, as 2 of the 3 states are well north of the middle.
I do apologize for any offense, but I'd hope that my follow up post would have shown that that is not where I was going with the remark.  Unless one equates "conservative" with "gun-toting fundie redneck." 

As to the other, I understand why you read it the way you did, I wasn't clear, but it was never my intention to compare AZ with the other two states with similar laws, but to comment on the fact that the political climate here has more in common with, say, Texas or Georgia than many (or at least I) would have assumed.  Or do you deny that the population as a whole in these areas tends to be conservative, republican, etc?
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« Reply #18: April 18, 2010, 06:02:06 pm »

(Also, do you have a source to back up the part about the states and open carry? I ask because you state that but then go on to tie it to specific cities.)

I can't find it, so feel free to ignore the statement. 

OTOH, I did find these interesting links:

http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9020663

http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/

http://www.dailynews-record.com/opinion_details.php?AID=45846&CHID=36

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34714389/ns/us_news-life//

(comment on the last one:  anyone who already has 15 guns doesn't need any excuse to buy another.  I just saw an ad for a new revolver chambered for .45 and for the .410 shotshell.  I =want= it!!!)

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« Reply #19: April 18, 2010, 06:57:26 pm »

I can't find it, so feel free to ignore the statement. 

OTOH, I did find these interesting links:

http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9020663

http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/

http://www.dailynews-record.com/opinion_details.php?AID=45846&CHID=36

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34714389/ns/us_news-life//

(comment on the last one:  anyone who already has 15 guns doesn't need any excuse to buy another.  I just saw an ad for a new revolver chambered for .45 and for the .410 shotshell.  I =want= it!!!)



I'll take a look at those in a bit. (Just got up to Dallas and am on Mom's dial-up....a FAR cry from a cable modem. LOL)

What I looked at last night, and it was just a quick hit on a couple of sites that I'd hesitate to give as a source of any kind pretty well showed me that concealed carry laws don't seem to impact violent crime percentages.

I did a comparison of Houston and Dallas (we have concealed carry here in Texas) with Phoenix, Chicago and DC. There was little to no difference in the percentages that I saw. I didn't look to see where the numbers came from, but looking at cities that are similar in size just didn't bear out the idea that concealed carry really did much.

Like I said last night, though, what bugs me about this law in Arizona isn't really the concealed carry bit, but the "no permit" bit. I think that's insanely stupid.
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« Reply #20: April 18, 2010, 07:15:54 pm »

I do apologize for any offense, but I'd hope that my follow up post would have shown that that is not where I was going with the remark.  Unless one equates "conservative" with "gun-toting fundie redneck." 

As to the other, I understand why you read it the way you did, I wasn't clear, but it was never my intention to compare AZ with the other two states with similar laws, but to comment on the fact that the political climate here has more in common with, say, Texas or Georgia than many (or at least I) would have assumed.  Or do you deny that the population as a whole in these areas tends to be conservative, republican, etc?

I would say that there are places where it's true, but it's not necessarily true across the board. Many older, low-income Southerners are staunch Democrats, a holdover from the New Deal era. Also, it's easy to forget that there are urban areas in the South, just like anywhere else, and that the tendency is for more urban areas to lean more to the left. I'm not denying that there are places where it's true, but I will add that my home state of North Carolina has a Democratic governor and sent a senator from each party to Washington in the last election, as well as having gone for Obama in the last presidential election.
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« Reply #21: April 18, 2010, 07:27:52 pm »

I really don't get why this is a Good Idea, or why getting a permit is such a Bad Idea. If you don't know how to use a gun properly, you shouldn't own one in the first place.

A lot of people in this thread seem to be confusing "having a permit" with "having training."  They're not the same thing.  Some states require training to get a permit, but not all of them.

And why should they?  What does safety training have to do with concealed carry?  Shouldn't the training be part of gun ownership in general, not how you carry it?
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« Reply #22: April 18, 2010, 08:17:42 pm »

A lot of people in this thread seem to be confusing "having a permit" with "having training."  They're not the same thing.  Some states require training to get a permit, but not all of them.

And why should they?  What does safety training have to do with concealed carry?  Shouldn't the training be part of gun ownership in general, not how you carry it?
People are probably going from the linked article, which mentioned that classes and a background check are currently required to get the concealed carry permit in Arizona.

Training is an important part of gun ownership in general, but it becomes even more important when you're carrying it in public.  You're putting a larger number of people at risk if you misuse it.

Maybe it would be a good idea to require someone to show that the both know gun safety and are aware of the relevant laws in order for them to purchase a gun at all, but I don't see that happening.  So the carry permit laws that do require classes seem to me to be the next safest thing.
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« Reply #23: April 18, 2010, 08:27:30 pm »

Training is an important part of gun ownership in general, but it becomes even more important when you're carrying it in public.  You're putting a larger number of people at risk if you misuse it.

Doesn't this apply to open carry, too?
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« Reply #24: April 18, 2010, 09:06:18 pm »

Doesn't this apply to open carry, too?

Depends on the state.
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« Reply #25: April 18, 2010, 10:02:13 pm »

Depends on the state.

Sorry, what I meant was, if training becomes even more important when carrying in public because more people are affected, that's also true of open carry, not just concealed carry.
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« Reply #26: April 18, 2010, 10:34:50 pm »

Sorry, what I meant was, if training becomes even more important when carrying in public because more people are affected, that's also true of open carry, not just concealed carry.

Yes, classes should be required to get any carry permit.  I think that is pretty much the agreement here for people who think permit is desirable.
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« Reply #27: April 18, 2010, 10:54:36 pm »

Yes, classes should be required to get any carry permit.  I think that is pretty much the agreement here for people who think permit is desirable.

To be honest, I more interested in seeing the training than the permit, but without a permit requirement you are never going to know if people actually get the training.
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« Reply #28: April 18, 2010, 11:23:38 pm »

Like I said last night, though, what bugs me about this law in Arizona isn't really the concealed carry bit, but the "no permit" bit. I think that's insanely stupid.

It's hard to argue that; I think everyone should have to pass a basic competence test before they're permitted.  NYS requires one.  I aced it when I took it 6-7 years ago and then put the documentation in one of those places that are so safe you never find it again...?  So it's expired, now, and I have to do it again.  Shouldn't be hard to do.

OTOH, it is a fact that pistols are dirt simple to shoot.  Reloading and proper care is another issue, but just picking it up and firing...?  Anyone can do that, and generally, normal combat pistol ranges are 15-25feet, so hitting the target isn't difficult.  I've had my hands on a Colt .357 Magnum -- fired 6 rounds in a 4-inch group at 50 feet when I was 12, firing one-handed in the duellists' stance.  My dad was old fashioned and didn't like two handed grips on handguns.  

Didn't hold a handgun again till I took a couple of "Citizen's Police Academy" courses that included a little target practice.  Between both separate opportunities, I've fired about a dozen rounds from Glock 22 handguns.  I love Glocks! I could write my name with that weapon.  Given free choice of firing and a ten-round magazine, I double-tapped the target at head, center mass and groin.  The vertical line was almost perfect.  Range:  21 feet.

What would be really helpful would be if each person had to take a 3-hour course in state law re what constitutes justifiable homicide, excusable homicide and self-defense in their state, ie, when can I shoot someone and when should I not without risking prison or life?  Most states have a version of the "Castle Doctrine" but AFAIK only Texas has actually codified it.


Handguns are easy to shoot:  just point and squeeze the trigger.  Human bodies are pretty big; you're bound to hit.
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« Reply #29: April 18, 2010, 11:52:52 pm »

To be honest, I more interested in seeing the training than the permit, but without a permit requirement you are never going to know if people actually get the training.

Yes, this.  Except that, coming from a state that has no training requirements for anything gun-related, I support the idea of required training but resent the idea of connecting that training with concealed carry permits; it seems dishonest, using CC permits as a roundabout way to make gun owners get training.

I've always thought a straightforward gun license, just like a driving license, should be reasonable for both sides of the debate.  Both guns and cars are inherently dangerous machines, but no one tries to ban cars or regulate them to the point of nonexistence, and anyone who can pass their driver's test and keep their record fairly clean must be allowed to drive; at the same time, no one proposes that we should let just anyone take one out on the road without training.
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