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Author Topic: Arizona to allow concealed weapons without permit  (Read 8731 times)
GabrielWithoutWings
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« Reply #30: April 19, 2010, 07:31:16 am »

To be honest, I more interested in seeing the training than the permit, but without a permit requirement you are never going to know if people actually get the training.

Since I work in law enforcement, I'm wondering exactly what the police agencies are doing to update their policies on traffic stops.  I bet every officer in the entire state is a nervous wreck right now.  Every traffic stop potentially has a firearm involved, but now they've upped the chances.
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that I may take comfort a little before I go whence I shall not return,
even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
a land of darkness, as darkness itself,
and of the shadow of death without any order,
and where the light is as darkness.

- Job

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« Reply #31: April 19, 2010, 07:58:52 am »

Handguns are easy to shoot:  just point and squeeze the trigger.  Human bodies are pretty big; you're bound to hit.

The first part is true. The last cause is wishful thinking.
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« Reply #32: April 19, 2010, 09:13:46 am »

Since I work in law enforcement, I'm wondering exactly what the police agencies are doing to update their policies on traffic stops.  I bet every officer in the entire state is a nervous wreck right now.  Every traffic stop potentially has a firearm involved, but now they've upped the chances.

I could have sworn I read where there are police groups backing this new law. Which really makes me wonder how much of the story we're missing.

I know if I was a police officer in Arizona, I'd probably be looking for another line of work about now.
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« Reply #33: April 19, 2010, 11:32:46 am »

To be honest, I more interested in seeing the training than the permit, but without a permit requirement you are never going to know if people actually get the training.

And in many states, the permit is really a criminal history/background check.  Though WA state at least requires a class for a hunting permit.
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« Reply #34: April 19, 2010, 11:53:05 am »

And in many states, the permit is really a criminal history/background check.  Though WA state at least requires a class for a hunting permit.

This is what I want to know though, what the heck is wrong with a criminal history/ background check?  Right now, I have four every year.  One for my job, one for BSA, one for GSA, and one for SPiralscouts (ok, they aren't every single year, but the others are). I owuld prefer that people with a history of violence DON"T have permission to carry.

Now, if I understood the huffington post piece I found, if you are stopped by the police, they have the right to ask and to expect a fully truthful and peaceful answer to the question "Are you carrying a gun" and lying is at least a misdemeanor.  And then they can demand to hold your gun until the contact is finished, and refusal is again, at least a misdemeanor.    Off to find the piece, I will post a link as soon as I find it.
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« Reply #35: April 19, 2010, 12:02:21 pm »

This is what I want to know though, what the heck is wrong with a criminal history/ background check?  Right now, I have four every year.  One for my job, one for BSA, one for GSA, and one for SPiralscouts (ok, they aren't every single year, but the others are). I owuld prefer that people with a history of violence DON"T have permission to carry.

Now, if I understood the huffington post piece I found, if you are stopped by the police, they have the right to ask and to expect a fully truthful and peaceful answer to the question "Are you carrying a gun" and lying is at least a misdemeanor.  And then they can demand to hold your gun until the contact is finished, and refusal is again, at least a misdemeanor.    Off to find the piece, I will post a link as soon as I find it.

I have no problems with background checks for permits - I was just pointing out that yes, many do NOT include classes. 

And yes, many of us have to go through background and criminal history checks for work - why not for guns?  I loved the one for boy scouts - how many different ways can you ask if someone is a pedophile? 
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« Reply #36: April 19, 2010, 01:28:52 pm »

I have no problems with background checks for permits - I was just pointing out that yes, many do NOT include classes. 

And yes, many of us have to go through background and criminal history checks for work - why not for guns?  I loved the one for boy scouts - how many different ways can you ask if someone is a pedophile? 

But something I've noticed is that alot of people do seem to think that a background check is an invasion of privacy bad enough that owning a very dangerous weapon does not really call for one.
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« Reply #37: April 19, 2010, 01:42:58 pm »

But something I've noticed is that alot of people do seem to think that a background check is an invasion of privacy bad enough that owning a very dangerous weapon does not really call for one.

Which is BS since most of that stuff is available online - sometimes for a fee, but still.  The SO has a brother who is estranged from the rest of the family. but still in the general area.  When the SO's parents died he wanted to inform this brother.  We knew his name, his wife's name, and his date of birth (all things on employment forms and many other applications).  His phone is unlisted.  He has no facebook, myspace, whatever.  It took me about 10 minutes and $1.99 to get his home address and phone number - it would have been free if he was in the phone book.  I could have paid more and got more, but all we wanted was the address.
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« Reply #38: April 19, 2010, 02:37:34 pm »

Which is BS since most of that stuff is available online - sometimes for a fee, but still.  The SO has a brother who is estranged from the rest of the family. but still in the general area.  When the SO's parents died he wanted to inform this brother.  We knew his name, his wife's name, and his date of birth (all things on employment forms and many other applications).  His phone is unlisted.  He has no facebook, myspace, whatever.  It took me about 10 minutes and $1.99 to get his home address and phone number - it would have been free if he was in the phone book.  I could have paid more and got more, but all we wanted was the address.

Yeah, but that's PRIVATE INDUSTRY having that information.  That's not the GOVERNMENT!

*eyeroll*
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« Reply #39: April 19, 2010, 03:18:48 pm »

Yeah, but that's PRIVATE INDUSTRY having that information.  That's not the GOVERNMENT!

*eyeroll*

Ummm - yeah.  If the government wants to know about you, they do.  Period.
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« Reply #40: April 19, 2010, 04:56:56 pm »

But something I've noticed is that alot of people do seem to think that a background check is an invasion of privacy bad enough that owning a very dangerous weapon does not really call for one.

I hadn't heard that one before.

The few people I was talking to thought the idea of a gun license would be akin to taking guns away. I had offered it as a way to avoid background checks for each gun purchase. Get the gun permit and you can buy as many guns of the right type as you want. Renew the permit every few years just like a driver's license.

Of course the people I was talking to believed everything Flush Limbaugh said without thinking about it.
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« Reply #41: April 19, 2010, 06:17:41 pm »

I hadn't heard that one before.

The few people I was talking to thought the idea of a gun license would be akin to taking guns away. I had offered it as a way to avoid background checks for each gun purchase. Get the gun permit and you can buy as many guns of the right type as you want. Renew the permit every few years just like a driver's license.

Of course the people I was talking to believed everything Flush Limbaugh said without thinking about it.

well, why else would there be such an objection to the background checks, other than the waiting period?   Most of the rabid gun freaks that I know, (and I include some family members in this idiocy) seem to think that a background check = taking their guns away.  If we don't give guns to released felons and mental patients with histories of violence, the next thing you know we'll have no guns at all allowed.
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« Reply #42: April 19, 2010, 07:03:19 pm »

well, why else would there be such an objection to the background checks, other than the waiting period?   Most of the rabid gun freaks that I know, (and I include some family members in this idiocy) seem to think that a background check = taking their guns away.  If we don't give guns to released felons and mental patients with histories of violence, the next thing you know we'll have no guns at all allowed.

Police Chiefs who don't want citizens to have permits and thus never submit background checks. Had a friends sister who waited a year for the MA town police chief to submit her background check to the state police. Luckily she had another brother with connections to the state police and got the staties to send an approved background check to the local dept via certified mail. Police chief didn't have much choice but to issue.

That's the basis for "shall issue" laws.
Basically gun owners have been hasseled and delayed (in mostly northern states) at the whim of govt officials. Background checks associated with a gun purchase creates a database of who owns which guns.
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« Reply #43: April 19, 2010, 09:11:48 pm »

Police Chiefs who don't want citizens to have permits and thus never submit background checks. Had a friends sister who waited a year for the MA town police chief to submit her background check to the state police. Luckily she had another brother with connections to the state police and got the staties to send an approved background check to the local dept via certified mail. Police chief didn't have much choice but to issue.

That's the basis for "shall issue" laws.
Basically gun owners have been hasseled and delayed (in mostly northern states) at the whim of govt officials. Background checks associated with a gun purchase creates a database of who owns which guns.



See, I don't have a problem with Shall Issue, so long as felons and mental patients with violent histories are excluded.  And if you don't want the government to know that you own a gun, buy it at a gun show and show your permit.  At least the rest of us will have a good chance to be sure that you passed a basic background check and took a class (see, I would require the class too, at least for the first permit). You have to do that for a car, you should have to do it for a gun too.

Correcting people not sending in background checks is a different animal than not requiring them in the first place.  THe second is stupid, the first is repairable.

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