The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
May 30, 2023, 05:13:41 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 30, 2023, 05:13:41 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Bill aims to strip certain Americans of their citizenship  (Read 5760 times)
LyricFox
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:September 04, 2011, 02:39:11 pm
United States United States

Religion: Lapsed Hellenic Reconstructionist
Posts: 8959


Blog entries (0)


« Topic Start: May 06, 2010, 04:46:16 pm »

Bill aims to strip certain Americans of their citizenship

Washington (CNN) -- A bipartisan group of legislators on Thursday introduced legislation in Congress to strip citizenship from any American found to be involved in terrorism.

If the Terrorist Expatriation Act passes, an American would lose citizenship if found to have provided material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization -- as designated by the secretary of state -- or participated in actions against the United States

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/05/06/terrorism.act.change/index.html?eref=rss_politics&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_allpolitics+%28RSS%3A+Politics%29
Logged

Visit The Breast Cancer Site & Click to fund free Mammograms
Hosts' Store: Doxy's Bazaar (w/Pagan Items)
Need Web Hosting? See The Cheap Web Hosting Report

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

sailor_tech
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 06, 2011, 04:43:27 pm
United States United States

Religion: Jewish
Posts: 3564

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #1: May 06, 2010, 05:07:14 pm »

Bill aims to strip certain Americans of their citizenship

Washington (CNN) -- A bipartisan group of legislators on Thursday introduced legislation in Congress to strip citizenship from any American found to be involved in terrorism.

If the Terrorist Expatriation Act passes, an American would lose citizenship if found to have provided material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization -- as designated by the secretary of state -- or participated in actions against the United States

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/05/06/terrorism.act.change/index.html?eref=rss_politics&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_allpolitics+%28RSS%3A+Politics%29

As initially presented on CNN a day or so ago it would have been unconstitional since it would strip citizenship of naturalized citizens Prior to conviction.

Logged
LyricFox
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:September 04, 2011, 02:39:11 pm
United States United States

Religion: Lapsed Hellenic Reconstructionist
Posts: 8959


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #2: May 06, 2010, 05:23:10 pm »

As initially presented on CNN a day or so ago it would have been unconstitional since it would strip citizenship of naturalized citizens Prior to conviction.



That's part of what just stumps the hell out of me. That and the idea that you shouldn't Mirandize the people.
Logged

Visit The Breast Cancer Site & Click to fund free Mammograms
Hosts' Store: Doxy's Bazaar (w/Pagan Items)
Need Web Hosting? See The Cheap Web Hosting Report
Juni
Adept Member
*****
*
*
Last Login:February 05, 2021, 09:36:51 pm
United States United States

Religion: Misticism
TCN ID: Juni
Posts: 2302


Strive to be happy.

Blog entries (2)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3: May 06, 2010, 05:42:10 pm »


These people need to take another look at the 14th Amendment. And get their heads out of their asses.
Logged


.: Eleven-Pm.org .:. updated 30 June :.

"I don't go anywhere without my mutated anthrax! 'Fer duck huntin." - Futurama
Rowanfox
Master Member
****
Last Login:December 02, 2010, 12:55:53 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Gardnerian
Posts: 472


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #4: May 06, 2010, 05:57:15 pm »

As initially presented on CNN a day or so ago it would have been unconstitional since it would strip citizenship of naturalized citizens Prior to conviction.



Unfortunately, from an outsider's point of view, America seems to have adopted a guilty until proven innocent policy when it comes to terrorism.

On the other hand, I really don't blame them. Some joker trying to blow up Time square, then getting caught fleeing the country, isn't really much of a citizen anyway.

Canada and the US are made up of mostly immigrants; but I don't think too many of our ancestors went out of their way to destroy the stability of our nations. in fact. most are very proud to be Canadian or American. They often came with nothing but their dreams and a hard work ethic. However, for some reason, the most recent groups of immigrants have come (to Canada, at least) and brought more than that. Some bring old grudges, prejudices, and hatred. Some bring a penchant for violence, civil disobedience, or terrorism. They come not to make a new life in a new home, but to take advantage of economic or educational advantages to promote their own personal or political agendas.

In light of this new reality, small wonder that some would choose to simply revoke the privilage citizenship offers to those who would take advantage.

The Canada (or America),  love it or leave it campaigners are likely to become the non-silent majority soon.

And really, when did patriotism and law-abiding become dirty words?
Logged

Melamphoros
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:March 28, 2015, 11:01:26 pm
United States United States

Religion: Informed Eclectic with Hellenic Overtones
TCN ID: Melamphoros
Posts: 13621


Kiss My Scythe

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #5: May 06, 2010, 06:11:12 pm »

If the Terrorist Expatriation Act passes, an American would lose citizenship if found to have provided material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization -- as designated by the secretary of state -- or participated in actions against the United States

(bolding mine)

In all fairness, why does this apply only to naturalized citizans foreign terrorist organizations?  Shouldn't it also apply to naturally born citizans and domestic terrorism?  Oh wait, I forgot that the "T" word is not to be used unless the people are brown and pray facing Mecca Roll Eyes

But yeah, from what I can tell this is completely unconstiutional.
Logged



Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog
Kasmira
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:July 29, 2017, 12:05:31 pm
United States United States

Religion: Buddhist and Daoist inspired something
TCN ID: Kasmira
Posts: 1582


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #6: May 06, 2010, 08:16:47 pm »

(bolding mine)

In all fairness, why does this apply only to naturalized citizans foreign terrorist organizations?  Shouldn't it also apply to naturally born citizans and domestic terrorism?  Oh wait, I forgot that the "T" word is not to be used unless the people are brown and pray facing Mecca Roll Eyes

But yeah, from what I can tell this is completely unconstiutional.

That. And, how are we defining terrorist organization again?
Logged


Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss - Douglas Adams
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all - Oscar Wilde
The road to nowhere: My little foray into the blogoshpere
Sine Silvering
Board Staff
Master Member
****
Last Login:February 20, 2011, 01:32:14 pm
United States United States

Religion: priestess, Gardnerian Wicca
Posts: 495


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7: May 06, 2010, 08:32:57 pm »

(bolding mine)

In all fairness, why does this apply only to naturalized citizans foreign terrorist organizations?  Shouldn't it also apply to naturally born citizans and domestic terrorism?  Oh wait, I forgot that the "T" word is not to be used unless the people are brown and pray facing Mecca Roll Eyes

But yeah, from what I can tell this is completely unconstiutional.

Hmm.  Does it apply only to naturalized citizens? I haven't seen the text of the bill, and the radio only said a couple of sentences about it.  I have to say that one of the first thoughts I had about the Times Square bomber was that he had entered into American citizenship under false pretenses, and that the citizenship ought to be revoked.

Unconstitutional?  What section would you cite to back that up?  Most countries have a mechanism under which they can revoke naturalized citizenship for cause.  I'd want it to happen AFTER conviction for a terrorist act; that's only fair.  Then they can serve their time in Supermax and then get shipped back to Ireland or Chechnya or Iran or wherever.

Although, to be fair, the Irish terrorist problem seems dormant right now. 

Would there have been any point in revoking the citizenship of Timothy McVeigh?  Possibly; he was a veteran, and while he clearly had a problem with the federal government, he claimed to love his country.  Revoking his citizenship might have hurt him worse than that final needle...

JMNSHO; YMMV.
Logged

--------------
Blesséd Be!

When men speak ill of thee, live so as no one will believe them.
---Old Farmers Almanac, 1832
sailor_tech
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 06, 2011, 04:43:27 pm
United States United States

Religion: Jewish
Posts: 3564

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #8: May 06, 2010, 10:39:01 pm »

(bolding mine)

In all fairness, why does this apply only to naturalized citizans foreign terrorist organizations?  Shouldn't it also apply to naturally born citizans and domestic terrorism?  Oh wait, I forgot that the "T" word is not to be used unless the people are brown and pray facing Mecca Roll Eyes

But yeah, from what I can tell this is completely unconstiutional.

To echo Sine, does this apply only to naturalized citizens?

Ties to a foreign terrorist organization is in line with existing US law. If a US citizen were to join the Canadian army they'd lose their citizenship. The foreign army doesn't have to be at war with us, nor even at war with one of our allies.

The big change is in adding terrorism. It is a step towards realizing that the Westphalian model is failing as far as non-state actors.
Logged
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #9: May 06, 2010, 10:45:05 pm »

Hmm.  Does it apply only to naturalized citizens?

I don't think it can apply to natural born citizens. I don't think Congress has the authority to to strip citizenship from those born here. At least I don't see it listed in their powers in the Constitution (nor can I think of an amendment that would allow them to do so). The only related power I see is "to establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization" which might be construed to allow them to strip citizenship from naturalized citizens, but would not give them the power to strip it from natural born citizens, especially as Section 1 of 14th Amendment begins by clearly stating "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the state wherein the reside."
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
sailor_tech
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 06, 2011, 04:43:27 pm
United States United States

Religion: Jewish
Posts: 3564

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #10: May 06, 2010, 11:06:01 pm »

I don't think it can apply to natural born citizens. I don't think Congress has the authority to to strip citizenship from those born here. At least I don't see it listed in their powers in the Constitution (nor can I think of an amendment that would allow them to do so). The only related power I see is "to establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization" which might be construed to allow them to strip citizenship from naturalized citizens, but would not give them the power to strip it from natural born citizens, especially as Section 1 of 14th Amendment begins by clearly stating "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the state wherein the reside."

Link to bill from Lieberman's Senate site:
http://lieberman.senate.gov/assets/pdf/TEA_full.pdf

Link that is supposed to (I haven't read all of it)  explain what is required for a person to be stripped of their citizenship. Seems to apply to both native born and naturalized.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=444&invol=252
Logged
UlsterYank
Master Member
****
Last Login:January 21, 2013, 02:18:03 pm
Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Republic of

Religion: Traidisiúnachais Gaelach, Witchcraft, Thelema
TCN ID: UlsterYank
Posts: 292


Déan mar is Toil leat, a bheas mar iomlán an Dlí

Blog entries (0)

anmericeanach
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #11: May 06, 2010, 11:52:43 pm »



If the Terrorist Expatriation Act passes, an American would lose citizenship if found to have provided material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization
I hope that includes all of the internet clowns that support the IRA as well. There were plenty of Americans that funded them, until 9/11.
Logged

"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains" AL II:9
sailor_tech
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 06, 2011, 04:43:27 pm
United States United States

Religion: Jewish
Posts: 3564

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #12: May 07, 2010, 07:27:31 am »

I hope that includes all of the internet clowns that support the IRA as well. There were plenty of Americans that funded them, until 9/11.

It would cover any new support offered.

Which raises the question of how did the US handle IRA supporters before. I doubt we were about to give a free pass to any American that made it back to the US after attacking UK forces.

Logged
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #13: May 07, 2010, 08:05:43 am »

Link that is supposed to (I haven't read all of it)  explain what is required for a person to be stripped of their citizenship. Seems to apply to both native born and naturalized.

From a very quick look, I suspect major parts would be unconstitutional for various reasons.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
tinapo85
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:April 02, 2011, 12:52:04 am
United States United States

Religion: Pagan
Posts: 97


Blog entries (0)

Tina Palmer


Ignore
« Reply #14: May 07, 2010, 02:11:32 pm »

It would cover any new support offered.

Which raises the question of how did the US handle IRA supporters before. I doubt we were about to give a free pass to any American that made it back to the US after attacking UK forces.




IRA supporters in the US were monitored before, I don't think there was any penalty, but they knew who was an IRA supporter.

After 9/11 many were put on no fly lists and dubbed terrorists as well.

They also put known domestic terrorists on those lists.
Logged

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Bill Walsh RIP
Sports and Recreation
LyricFox 1 1488 Last post July 30, 2007, 06:56:37 pm
by RandallS
RIP Bill Buckley
Non-Religious News
LyricFox 1 1078 Last post February 27, 2008, 05:37:43 pm
by RandallS
The New Dollar Bill
Humor and Quizzes
Phoenix 4 1743 Last post July 16, 2008, 07:23:24 pm
by Kasmira
Wicca Unknown to Majority of Americans
Paganism For Beginners
RandallS 4 2544 Last post February 08, 2009, 05:17:37 pm
by RandallS
Survey Profiles Nonreligious Americans
Religious News
LyricFox 4 2608 Last post August 22, 2009, 04:37:05 pm
by RandallS
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.156 seconds with 52 queries.