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Author Topic: Arizona and Immigration  (Read 15987 times)
stephyjh
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« Reply #15: May 12, 2010, 11:47:46 pm »

We live in a largely Hispanic neighborhood in Phoenix, and it's the best, friendliest neighborhood we've lived in since we've moved here. 

I lived most of my life in various mostly-Hispanic neighborhoods (specifically Mexican, for the most part, but a few Honduran neighbors), and I wouldn't trade that background for anything. The main thing proponents of the bill have forgotten is that these are human beings just trying to make lives for themselves and their children. If undocumented immigration is a crime, it is at worst equivalent to shoplifting food to feed one's family. These are not, for the most part, drug smugglers, rapists, or murderers. Their worst crime was being born in the wrong place.
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« Reply #16: May 12, 2010, 11:52:17 pm »

North Carolina licenses show no difference--I'm sitting here right now with my own in one hand and an undocumented friend's in the other. If they were legal proof of citizenship, they'd be eligible to be listed in Column A on the W-9 form for payroll withholding. As it is, they're in Column B, which only confirms identity OR eligibility to work, not both. The only document I can think of off the top of my head that is in Column A is a US passport, but there may be others. Not sure.

What I find interesting, in light of recent events, is that in 1924 the Indian Citizenship Act was passed by Congress, declaring all Native Americans US Citizenship. (Duh? But I digress.) It wasn't until 1948 that Native Americans were able to vote in all states. The two last holdouts were New Mexico and...wait for it...

Arizona.

It's not on the I-9, in part because employers are stupid and not all states have implemented it. My MMD isn't on the Column A list because an employer would have to actually Read the line that states my citizenship status.

BTW, it's possible that the 1924 law is a violation of various treaties and thus unconstitional. At least some tribes can issue their own passports, thus implying they are sovereign nations.
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« Reply #17: May 13, 2010, 08:08:32 am »

He's our State Superintendent of Public Instruction... 

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« Reply #18: May 13, 2010, 10:11:56 am »

I was wondering what you guys thought of these bills, any opinions you have.  It'd be wonderful to hear from other people outside of AZ. 

I will probably get flamed to hell and back for this, but I am all for 1070 (more or less). I don't know a whole lot about the issue with Tucson, as it's getting drowned out with other issues.

Most people seem to think that anyone can be pulled over and asked if they are American- which, actually, a Federal agent and ICE (from what I can tell) can do that. I've had to go through mandatory check points set up by ICE a few times in the past few months. However, with 1070, you have to have a reason to be pulled over *first* before being asked. And asking isn't mandatory, really. My only concern is that people could abuse the issue. But I think it's a risk that we'll have to take. Considering that the legislation says nothing about race, I don't see what everyone is getting so up in arms about. There are more than just illegal hispanics in AZ.

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« Reply #19: May 13, 2010, 03:47:40 pm »

Considering that the legislation says nothing about race, I don't see what everyone is getting so up in arms about. There are more than just illegal hispanics in AZ.

The thing is that when people think of the SW and illegal immigration, hispanics are the only ones that come to mind.  Many people also interpret 'probabale cause' as 'looking like their from Mexico'.
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« Reply #20: May 13, 2010, 04:18:05 pm »

My only concern is that people could abuse the issue.

And, ultimately, that's what the problem boils down to...creating a police state.

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But I think it's a risk that we'll have to take.

Two questions. What risk and why do we have to take it?

And one comment. No way in hell am I accepting that this is a "risk that we have to take." I'm in Texas and I'd fight this sort of legislation with every fiber of my being. Not just because it sets up racial profiling, but because I absolutely disagree that living in a police state is "worth the risk."

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« Reply #21: May 13, 2010, 04:36:11 pm »

I will probably get flamed to hell and back for this, but I am all for 1070 (more or less). I don't know a whole lot about the issue with Tucson, as it's getting drowned out with other issues.

Most people seem to think that anyone can be pulled over and asked if they are American- which, actually, a Federal agent and ICE (from what I can tell) can do that. I've had to go through mandatory check points set up by ICE a few times in the past few months. However, with 1070, you have to have a reason to be pulled over *first* before being asked. And asking isn't mandatory, really. My only concern is that people could abuse the issue. But I think it's a risk that we'll have to take. Considering that the legislation says nothing about race, I don't see what everyone is getting so up in arms about. There are more than just illegal hispanics in AZ.

-Devo

I have no problem with Federal Agents and ICE doing that.  

But people are pulled over for lots of reasons.  Personally, I don't think any police officer should have to enforce this, and the law says citizens can sue I believe the police agencies if they think that the police aren't enforcing the law.  Arizona is having enough troubles as it is financially, and now we've just given our police even more work.  The only fair way to enact this legislation is if the police ask everyone for their papers when they are pulled over or they ask no one.  And while ICE can ask all it wants, there is no way I am comfortable with a police officer asking for proof of citizenship.  I think it's my right as a citizen of the U.S. to be able to say, "I'm a citizen" and that's the end of the discussion.  I don't want to live in a police state, like LyricFox said.
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« Reply #22: May 13, 2010, 04:57:10 pm »

The thing is that when people think of the SW and illegal immigration, hispanics are the only ones that come to mind.  Many people also interpret 'probabale cause' as 'looking like their from Mexico'.

If that's the case, the police officer can be called to court in suit to explain what the probable cause is.
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« Reply #23: May 13, 2010, 05:18:10 pm »

My only concern is that people could abuse the issue. But I think it's a risk that we'll have to take.

Why do we have to take that risk? I see no reason to.  If you want to cut back on illegal aliens, fine the large corporations that employ large numbers of them such huge amounts of money that using even one illegal alien isn't profitable for them.
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« Reply #24: May 13, 2010, 06:59:52 pm »

If that's the case, the police officer can be called to court in suit to explain what the probable cause is.

As I understand it, they only need 'reasonable suspicion'.  This could have changed--there have been rumors that it has been changed to probable cause but I'm not sure that they have.  But reasonable suspicion isn't well defined by the law.
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« Reply #25: May 13, 2010, 09:47:14 pm »

I mean, really .. who carries proof of citizenship WITH them in a country where they live?  Really?

In the United States of America, federal law requires non-citizens who are legally resident here in the US to carry their proof (usually called a "green card") with them at all times.  My grandmother's was in her purse the day she died at 92.

Citizens generally prove their citizenship automatically by producing their drivers license; I had to prove my citizenship and achievement of appropriate age to get a drivers license by producing my birth certificate.  Clearly, there are a few states that do not require a birth certificate and were handing out drivers licenses to anyone, pretending that driver's licenses aren't our most common form of identification, pretending that the driver's test with a passing score was all one should need to get that card.

My driver's license is "enhanced" to include an RFID chip and I had to prove not only citizenship but residency in my state, with proof I'd paid property taxes, income taxes, utility bills.  It is accepted at the Canadian border as acceptable identification to enter their country except by air.  Since that border is right here, and I've been known to drive the bridge for lunch (Chinese food is better in Fort Erie; I don't know why!), the enhanced license was easier and cheaper than an actual passport, which I don't anticipate needing.



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« Reply #26: May 13, 2010, 09:50:16 pm »

As I understand it, they only need 'reasonable suspicion'.  This could have changed--there have been rumors that it has been changed to probable cause but I'm not sure that they have.  But reasonable suspicion isn't well defined by the law.

Actually it has in many decades of case law.

and the both the Federal and AZ standard are for "reasonable suspicion" with the AZ law limiting that to only the context of it being a secondary event. In other words, the police have to have another reason to have stopped somebody before reasonable suspicion can come into play.
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« Reply #27: May 13, 2010, 11:12:37 pm »

My only concern is that people could abuse the issue. But I think it's a risk that we'll have to take.

Who was it that said something to the tune of "Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither"?
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« Reply #28: May 14, 2010, 09:54:35 am »



Sorry for the delay in response- I had responded yesterday, but it would seem that it didn't go through... hmms.

I have no problem with Federal Agents and ICE doing that. 
I would like to know what the difference is btwn Fed Agents/ICE/Border Patrol as opposed to local PD? Are they somehow more "qualified" to ask if you're a citizen? I honestly see no difference btwn one or the other- they all uphold the law in one shape or another.

Quote
But people are pulled over for lots of reasons.  Personally, I don't think any police officer should have to enforce this, and the law says citizens can sue I believe the police agencies if they think that the police aren't enforcing the law.  Arizona is having enough troubles as it is financially, and now we've just given our police even more work.  The only fair way to enact this legislation is if the police ask everyone for their papers when they are pulled over or they ask no one.  And while ICE can ask all it wants, there is no way I am comfortable with a police officer asking for proof of citizenship.  I think it's my right as a citizen of the U.S. to be able to say, "I'm a citizen" and that's the end of the discussion.  I don't want to live in a police state, like LyricFox said.

It is my understanding that police officers don't HAVE to ask, it is there own decision when, where and if they want to ask. For me, as stated above, I don't distinguish btwn different law enforcement branches- ICE asking is the same as local PD asking. Ironically, when they have the mandatory stops, you're asked not only by ICE, but by local law- usually each standing on each side of the car. Doesn't bother me at all, it's a legitemate question. As for the issue of it being a right- it's not a right to be able to say you're a citizen, and leaving it at that. I'd rather carry around another form of i.d. to prove I'm a citizen, than to have illegal immigration running rampant.

Two questions. What risk and why do we have to take it?

The risk I was referring to was the risk of PD abusing the asking about citizen status. I feel it's a necessary risk to try and get our illegal immigration issues under control. We can't just do nothing.
Who was it that said something to the tune of "Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither"?

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« Reply #29: May 14, 2010, 10:30:00 am »


Sorry for the delay in response- I had responded yesterday, but it would seem that it didn't go through... hmms.
I would like to know what the difference is btwn Fed Agents/ICE/Border Patrol as opposed to local PD? Are they somehow more "qualified" to ask if you're a citizen? I honestly see no difference btwn one or the other- they all uphold the law in one shape or another.

It is my understanding that police officers don't HAVE to ask, it is there own decision when, where and if they want to ask. For me, as stated above, I don't distinguish btwn different law enforcement branches- ICE asking is the same as local PD asking. Ironically, when they have the mandatory stops, you're asked not only by ICE, but by local law- usually each standing on each side of the car. Doesn't bother me at all, it's a legitemate question. As for the issue of it being a right- it's not a right to be able to say you're a citizen, and leaving it at that. I'd rather carry around another form of i.d. to prove I'm a citizen, than to have illegal immigration running rampant.

The risk I was referring to was the risk of PD abusing the asking about citizen status. I feel it's a necessary risk to try and get our illegal immigration issues under control. We can't just do nothing.
Whose freedom am I giving up?


-Devo

what illegal immigration issues?  That's just it, they aren't really taking jobs that american's want.  Mostly they are getting exploited, at a slightly higher wage, which is why they still come.  Yes, they are using state resources, but not really that much, poor people use state resources and it's not like they don't pay taxes, everything except possibly payroll taxes, but they pay those too if they are using false papers and the company pays them to hide the fact that some of the papers are false.  It's just the immigrants don't get the taxes back for income or EIC or social security.  illegal immigrants use less state resources than legal poor people, simply because they can access fewer of them.  The biggest problem is they're literally dying to cross the border and enriching criminal elements to do so.  Simple fix.  Make legal immigration much easier and at the same time, fine the hell out of companies so they literally can't afford to hire a single undocumented illegal worker.  Then fewer of them will die to get here. And they'll pay more taxes when they do.



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