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Author Topic: Arizona and Immigration  (Read 15988 times)
LyricFox
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« Reply #30: May 14, 2010, 10:43:34 am »


Sorry for the delay in response- I had responded yesterday, but it would seem that it didn't go through... hmms.
I would like to know what the difference is btwn Fed Agents/ICE/Border Patrol as opposed to local PD? Are they somehow more "qualified" to ask if you're a citizen? I honestly see no difference btwn one or the other- they all uphold the law in one shape or another.

It's a federal issue. That's a big part of the problem. Part of the whole United States thing...some things belong in the hands of federal oversight (and no, I'm not interested in having a discussion on whether the federal government has walked away from this issue...I think they have, but that's a different discussion).

Quote
It is my understanding that police officers don't HAVE to ask, it is there own decision when, where and if they want to ask. For me, as stated above, I don't distinguish btwn different law enforcement branches- ICE asking is the same as local PD asking.

No. Actually it's not. Your local police force is there for a different reason. Again, that's a big part of the problem with this bill.

Quote
Ironically, when they have the mandatory stops, you're asked not only by ICE, but by local law- usually each standing on each side of the car. Doesn't bother me at all, it's a legitemate question. As for the issue of it being a right- it's not a right to be able to say you're a citizen, and leaving it at that. I'd rather carry around another form of i.d. to prove I'm a citizen, than to have illegal immigration running rampant.

Not to be a smartass, but bully for you. Right before this law was passed in Arizona, there was a trucker who ended up in jail because his driver's license and SS number weren't enough ID. He was brown, so apparently he was expected to carry his birth certificate with him. Sorry, but people shouldn't be expected to cart around their birth certificate to satisfy some cop's curiosity.

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The risk I was referring to was the risk of PD abusing the asking about citizen status. I feel it's a necessary risk to try and get our illegal immigration issues under control. We can't just do nothing.

So Arizona citizens are comfortable turning the state into a police state? I'm glad you're comfortable with the "Papers please." mentality, but a whole lot of people see the civil rights problems this law creates.

Frankly the only good thing I can see coming out of it is it may possibly force the US government to address its responsibility w/r/t immigration.

Quote
Whose freedom am I giving up?
Anyone who has an issue with a) the constitutionality of this law, b) living in a police state. And anyone who doesn't agree with what Arizona has done (and probably some who do if they knew the full extent of that bill.)

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« Reply #31: May 14, 2010, 10:52:26 am »

Who was it that said something to the tune of "Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither"?

That would be dear old Ben Franklin.
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« Reply #32: May 14, 2010, 11:23:49 am »

That would be dear old Ben Franklin.

I love that man.

He'd be on my shortlist of invitees to my "Famous Dead People Dinner."
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« Reply #33: May 14, 2010, 11:35:30 am »

It's a federal issue. That's a big part of the problem. Part of the whole United States thing...some things belong in the hands of federal oversight (and no, I'm not interested in having a discussion on whether the federal government has walked away from this issue...I think they have, but that's a different discussion).

No. Actually it's not. Your local police force is there for a different reason. Again, that's a big part of the problem with this bill.

Not to be a smartass, but bully for you. Right before this law was passed in Arizona, there was a trucker who ended up in jail because his driver's license and SS number weren't enough ID. He was brown, so apparently he was expected to carry his birth certificate with him. Sorry, but people shouldn't be expected to cart around their birth certificate to satisfy some cop's curiosity.

So Arizona citizens are comfortable turning the state into a police state? I'm glad you're comfortable with the "Papers please." mentality, but a whole lot of people see the civil rights problems this law creates.

Frankly the only good thing I can see coming out of it is it may possibly force the US government to address its responsibility w/r/t immigration.
 Anyone who has an issue with a) the constitutionality of this law, b) living in a police state. And anyone who doesn't agree with what Arizona has done (and probably some who do if they knew the full extent of that bill.)



You pretty much said everything that I was thinking.  Except much more to-the-point then I would have.
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« Reply #34: May 14, 2010, 12:57:00 pm »

I'm glad you're comfortable with the "Papers please." mentality, but a whole lot of people see the civil rights problems this law creates.

It's not even a question of rights for me (though that's also important). Some people are inclined to trust governments. I'm not, no matter how benign the particular administration in question. This is one of the things I love about the US. A healthy distrust of the government is enshrined in the constitution. In the UK we just tend to look at government as inherently inept (though there is a healthy touch of distrust mixed in with that), and here in Egypt folks seem to think the government is there to solve all their problems (oh, the irony...).

No, I'm not a paranoid conspiracy theorist. I just don't think governments are immune from the human condition of being susceptible to misusing power. Heck, by virtue of the simple fact governments have so much power, I tend to view them as more susceptible. And being able to demand someone's papers without a very good reason? That's power, and easily misused power at that. Think Rwanda (Tutsi/Hutu ID cards were used to sort people for massacre), Nazi Germany ("J" ID cards predated the yellow star and could be demanded without reason), etc. Though the former was misuse by citizens, not the government, it still illustrates the power of the concept. I'm not interested in handing over that kind of power...

So yes, I guess this really boils down to rights. What I'm trying to say is that it's not just some abstract concept - "rights" - it's a very material transfer of power without my consent.
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« Reply #35: May 14, 2010, 05:18:23 pm »

It's a federal issue. That's a big part of the problem. Part of the whole United States thing...some things belong in the hands of federal oversight (and no, I'm not interested in having a discussion on whether the federal government has walked away from this issue...I think they have, but that's a different discussion).

EXACTLY. The federal government is responsible for immigration issues, not the state government.

Quote
Not to be a smartass, but bully for you. Right before this law was passed in Arizona, there was a trucker who ended up in jail because his driver's license and SS number weren't enough ID. He was brown, so apparently he was expected to carry his birth certificate with him. Sorry, but people shouldn't be expected to cart around their birth certificate to satisfy some cop's curiosity.

And even ONE person being treated like this is too many.
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« Reply #36: May 14, 2010, 05:32:49 pm »

It's a federal issue. That's a big part of the problem. Part of the whole United States thing...some things belong in the hands of federal oversight (and no, I'm not interested in having a discussion on whether the federal government has walked away from this issue...I think they have, but that's a different discussion).

(snip)
Not to be a smartass, but bully for you. Right before this law was passed in Arizona, there was a trucker who ended up in jail because his driver's license and SS number weren't enough ID. He was brown, so apparently he was expected to carry his birth certificate with him. Sorry, but people shouldn't be expected to cart around their birth certificate to satisfy some cop's curiosity.


Yep, those nasty Federal ICE agents put that man thru so much hassle.
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« Reply #37: May 14, 2010, 05:53:14 pm »

Yep, those nasty Federal ICE agents put that man thru so much hassle.

Ihre papiere bitte?
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« Reply #38: May 14, 2010, 06:00:25 pm »

Ihre papiere bitte?

Been there, done that. Also been asked in England, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Russia, Japan, Norway, whatever country Amsterdam is in.

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« Reply #39: May 14, 2010, 06:05:13 pm »

Been there, done that. Also been asked in England, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Russia, Japan, Norway, whatever country Amsterdam is in.

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« Reply #40: May 14, 2010, 08:21:19 pm »

Yep, those nasty Federal ICE agents put that man thru so much hassle.

Yeah, as a matter of fact they did. And that's incredibly wrong.
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« Reply #41: May 14, 2010, 08:22:31 pm »

Been there, done that. Also been asked in England, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Russia, Japan, Norway, whatever country Amsterdam is in.



Which really is immaterial since they aren't part of the US.
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« Reply #42: May 14, 2010, 10:00:07 pm »

Yeah, as a matter of fact they did. And that's incredibly wrong.

And hopefully more info will come out about the story. Such as what was the reason that his CDL wasn't acceptable proof of his citizenship status (wouldn't matter if he's a citizen or is here legally); did ICE overstep their own rules (sounds like they did, but I don't thing we are getting the full story); etc
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« Reply #43: May 15, 2010, 03:45:23 am »

Been there, done that. Also been asked in England, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Russia, Japan, Norway, whatever country Amsterdam is in.

i make no claims to being an expert in UK law (or the law of any other country for that matter), but I'm pretty sure that shouldn't have happened in England, Scotland, or Northern Ireland. We've had the national ID card battle that was intended to curb immigration by utilizing ID cards with one's immigration/citizen status on them. They were never fully implemented and, to all intents and purposes, the "papers please" crowd lost, at least for the time being.

Please, any of the other Brits on here who know more about this than I do, correct me if I've got something wrong here or if I'm ignoring some aspect of UK law that would let the police demand papers without good reason.
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« Reply #44: May 15, 2010, 09:34:13 am »

And hopefully more info will come out about the story. Such as what was the reason that his CDL wasn't acceptable proof of his citizenship status (wouldn't matter if he's a citizen or is here legally); did ICE overstep their own rules (sounds like they did, but I don't thing we are getting the full story); etc


At this point in the narrative, I don't think there's much choice but to assume harassment due to his color. And yes, I'm coming firmly down on the driver's side, but I do that because I have serious fears and problems with an agency or governmental employee harassing someone who is here legally or is a citizen. Too much room for abuse from zealous people.
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