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Author Topic: Chaos and De-ja vú  (Read 8541 times)
elektrofreek
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« Topic Start: May 30, 2007, 12:43:26 pm »

In the first part of my life de-ja vú was always a notion that confused me, and I vividly remember the first time I experienced the sensation. It wasn't a significant event, I was simply walking down a road with two people I had just met. However the feeling seemed to drive me forward and ever since then my life seemed to have been randomly marked with moments of unremembered recollection like this.

The first time it happened occurred not long after I had begun to experiment with meditation, although I was raised RC my mum in a previous life had practiced yoga and I had found some mental exercises in some very old worn books. I didn't keep it up for very long (life inevitably got in the way), but I always thought that my moment of de-ja vú was somehow connected to it.

Later on in my life these sensations sporadically continued, however I was no longer (traditionally) meditating and these seemed to be more connected to a point just before sleep, almost like I had dreamed of it but only a fraction of a moment that I later recognised. Anyway, as I started to fully appreciate the concept of chaos I started to wonder if these ideas gel at all.

I believe in chaos more than I believe what my eyes see and what my ears hear, however these moments of de-ja vú are indisputable to me also. I would like to know how other practices incorporate de-ja vú into their beliefs, and just any thoughts in general.

Pre-emptive thankies to all!
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« Reply #1: May 30, 2007, 12:53:42 pm »

In the first part of my life de-ja vú was always a notion that confused me, and I vividly remember the first time I experienced the sensation. It wasn't a significant event, I was simply walking down a road with two people I had just met. However the feeling seemed to drive me forward and ever since then my life seemed to have been randomly marked with moments of unremembered recollection like this.

The first time it happened occurred not long after I had begun to experiment with meditation, although I was raised RC my mum in a previous life had practiced yoga and I had found some mental exercises in some very old worn books. I didn't keep it up for very long (life inevitably got in the way), but I always thought that my moment of de-ja vú was somehow connected to it.

Later on in my life these sensations sporadically continued, however I was no longer (traditionally) meditating and these seemed to be more connected to a point just before sleep, almost like I had dreamed of it but only a fraction of a moment that I later recognised. Anyway, as I started to fully appreciate the concept of chaos I started to wonder if these ideas gel at all.

I believe in chaos more than I believe what my eyes see and what my ears hear, however these moments of de-ja vú are indisputable to me also. I would like to know how other practices incorporate de-ja vú into their beliefs, and just any thoughts in general.

Pre-emptive thankies to all!

[short note: I'm not about to call you crazy, although it may sound that way]

I think Peter Carroll has suggested that deja vu is some kind of quantum time thing.  I'm personally skeptical, because I briefly studied deja vu in Psychology.  The basic definition of deja vu is experiencing a sense of having experienced an event before, when one hasn't.  At clinical levels it's associated with damage to the frontal lobe.  I heard of a case study where a guy taken to hospital insisted that he'd met such and such doctor or nurse before, etc.  When asked why he'd been there, he confabulated a history/story behind it.  (Confabulation does not mean 'made it up' in the sense of deliberately lying.  'normal' people can and do confabulate under the right circumstances too.  It's more the case that your brain attempts to fill in information it thinks you should have).  I forget what he confabulated, and Im not sure I could even find out where the case study was published.

Anyway, the frontal lobe also handles stuff like reality checking.  So clinical levels of deja vu are one thing that can happen, but depending on pre-morbid (ie, before the brain damage occured) events, the damage to the frontal lobe can result in related, but different symptoms.  I forget the correct names for these symptoms, but they're quite fascinating.  In one, pre-morbid depression can lead to the sense that one is dead.  Others get the feeling that people/objects they know have been replaced with copies/clones/evil killer robots.  That last may sound funny, but more than one person has killed their family under the impression that they were not the real people.


Anyway, the short version is that I think deja vu is a function of how our brain operates, a mental hiccup if you will.  It's normal to experience it, even though brain damage can result in serious versions occurring.
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« Reply #2: May 30, 2007, 01:16:01 pm »

[short note: I'm not about to call you crazy, although it may sound that way]

...

Anyway, the short version is that I think deja vu is a function of how our brain operates, a mental hiccup if you will.  It's normal to experience it, even though brain damage can result in serious versions occurring.

Yeah I've come across the 'brain over-signifying moments' idea before too in my studies, but I've also found to take many of these theories with a pinch of salt (psychology I've found is less of a science and an art as it is a convenience). Although it would be a perfectly logical way of rationalising the effect, its the cause I'm more interested in (not having had any major blows to the head!). Admittedly I haven't picked up a single book concerning Chaos (it's been years since I've read anything not directly related to Uni... sigh) I have worked in head-injury wards and as disturbing as it can be the brain is capable of so much more than it's given credit for (the whole 'are our brains smart enough to figure themselves out' paradox).

And don't worry I have been called crazy plenty times, I think it's all relative personally!
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« Reply #3: May 30, 2007, 01:17:47 pm »

Yeah I've come across the 'brain over-signifying moments' idea before too in my studies, but I've also found to take many of these theories with a pinch of salt (psychology I've found is less of a science and an art as it is a convenience).

Could you explain what you mean by this statement?
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« Reply #4: May 30, 2007, 01:38:19 pm »

Yeah I've come across the 'brain over-signifying moments' idea before too in my studies, but I've also found to take many of these theories with a pinch of salt (psychology I've found is less of a science and an art as it is a convenience).

I'll try.

In my experience in psych wards and head injury wards there are people who are there for obvious reasons (congenital, trauma, drug induced), less obvious reasons (borderline personality, paranoia) and social reasons (anorexia etc). Many of these people get lumped into these places due to a lack of understanding/treatment as to what the problem is. However I've learned through my course that in many indigenous societies people that would typically get 'locked up' in our society are well integrated into their own (as shaman or seers or whatever). I can't help but feel that many people are kept locked up at the convenience of the state and their families and friends who lack a better way of dealing with a difficult situation.

(Note: I do know there are some seriously insane people that shouldn't be let out amongst the public but theres a whole spectrum of disorders and not everyone that goes into these places are completely irrational and dangerous)
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« Reply #5: May 30, 2007, 05:52:31 pm »

I'll try.

In my experience in psych wards and head injury wards there are people who are there for obvious reasons (congenital, trauma, drug induced), less obvious reasons (borderline personality, paranoia) and social reasons (anorexia etc). Many of these people get lumped into these places due to a lack of understanding/treatment as to what the problem is. However I've learned through my course that in many indigenous societies people that would typically get 'locked up' in our society are well integrated into their own (as shaman or seers or whatever). I can't help but feel that many people are kept locked up at the convenience of the state and their families and friends who lack a better way of dealing with a difficult situation.

(Note: I do know there are some seriously insane people that shouldn't be let out amongst the public but theres a whole spectrum of disorders and not everyone that goes into these places are completely irrational and dangerous)

Considering that you described Psychology as a convenience, and you're talking about the convenience of the state, would I be right in saying that you consider an entire body of science to be an excuse allowing people to be locked up?
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« Reply #6: May 30, 2007, 06:01:43 pm »

...social reasons (anorexia etc).

Considering untreated anorexia can be fatal, I don't think I'd say hospitalizing someone with the disease is done for "social reasons."
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« Reply #7: May 30, 2007, 10:49:40 pm »

Considering that you described Psychology as a convenience, and you're talking about the convenience of the state, would I be right in saying that you consider an entire body of science to be an excuse allowing people to be locked up?

Nothing of the sort, however the only universal truths are in maths. Even medicine isn't a true science, only a delaying tactic based on the best idea at the time. I wasn't trying to dismiss the whole field although I admit my post might have been misleading without further explanation. It's only that while working within the NHS I've witnessed people getting lost in the system, having a 'diagnosis' applied and then little else is achieved. Many treatments and drugs used are new and generally have a small success rate. 'Cures' are rare. Replying to Randall, even people who are treated for anorexia die, I only stuck that under 'social' as in many cases it's caused by a society's obsession with being thin, not because it's more convenient for society to keep them there.

And what can I say? The Jury's still out re: de-ja vú for me anyway. I was just curious as to others' interpretation of the sensation.
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« Reply #8: May 30, 2007, 10:53:58 pm »

Nothing of the sort, however the only universal truths are in maths.

I disagree strongly.
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« Reply #9: May 30, 2007, 11:35:00 pm »

Many treatments and drugs used are new and generally have a small success rate. 'Cures' are rare.

Are you talking about all medical treatment or just psychiatric treatment here?  Also, what is a cure?  If someone is so depressed they can't function, but taking an antidepressant every day allows them to get on with life, is that cured?  Does it matter if you have to maintain the 'cure'?

Replying to Randall, even people who are treated for anorexia die, I only stuck that under 'social' as in many cases it's caused by a society's obsession with being thin, not because it's more convenient for society to keep them there.

It sounds like you're saying that anorexia is always fatal, even if treated.  I may be misreading you; is that what you meant?  I've certainly "met" a few anorexia survivors online, seen people in documentaries, etc.  It would seem like it is possible to at least manage it.
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« Reply #10: May 31, 2007, 01:45:52 am »

Nothing of the sort, however the only universal truths are in maths. Even medicine isn't a true science, only a delaying tactic based on the best idea at the time.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to admit that I find both of these claims laughable.


Quote
I wasn't trying to dismiss the whole field although I admit my post might have been misleading without further explanation. It's only that while working within the NHS I've witnessed people getting lost in the system, having a 'diagnosis' applied and then little else is achieved.

I've worked in the NHS as well.  And yes, I've encountered 'institutionalised' clients, but I've also seen people who would have been far worse off without treatment, and I've seen many clients achieve a decent quality of life.  While a  fair amount is due to medicenes, psychology has contributed to developments of treatments.  I find it staggering to downplay the importance of science on the basis that *some* people are failed.
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« Reply #11: May 31, 2007, 06:30:52 am »

Also, what is a cure?  If someone is so depressed they can't function, but taking an antidepressant every day allows them to get on with life, is that cured?  Does it matter if you have to maintain the 'cure'?

Hi, you ask some good but difficult questions to answer in brief. In my opinion a true cure is one where a patient is eventually able to live free from medication, otherwise it's symptom management or suppression. However it can be hard to find two people with the same idea of what 'health' is, so the possibility of someone reaching that state is reduced, along with many doctors unwillingness to take patients off medications once they've been prescribed. Hopefully this will change though.

In the example you gave I feel that it isn't so much a 'cure' as a means-to-an-end, clearly it's better than the alternative however no-one should be put on anti-depressants and that be the end of the story. Thinking 'holistically' the drugs should be used in conjunction with other treatments in the aim of eventually living without medication.

I wasn't trying to say that anorexia is always fatal, just to make the point that treatment doesn't necessarily equal cure.

EverFool, I'm afraid to say that medicine (and by extension psychology) isn't a 'true' science as there are far too many variables to take into account. I'm not claiming that there haven't been countless people that have benefited from modern medical practices, or that modern scientific techniques aren't applied however for it to be 'true' the same treatment would produce the same results for all, and that just isn't the case. Neither of these fields have reached the end of their roads either, another reason why I may seem exceedingly skeptic or cynical, as you never know when the next discovery will change everyones opinions.

and Re: Universal Truth, I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong, however care to give me a few examples contrary first?
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« Reply #12: May 31, 2007, 06:52:35 am »

In the first part of my life de-ja vú was always a notion that confused me, and I vividly remember the first time I experienced the sensation. It wasn't a significant event, I was simply walking down a road with two people I had just met. However the feeling seemed to drive me forward and ever since then my life seemed to have been randomly marked with moments of unremembered recollection like this.

The first time it happened occurred not long after I had begun to experiment with meditation, although I was raised RC my mum in a previous life had practiced yoga and I had found some mental exercises in some very old worn books. I didn't keep it up for very long (life inevitably got in the way), but I always thought that my moment of de-ja vú was somehow connected to it.

Later on in my life these sensations sporadically continued, however I was no longer (traditionally) meditating and these seemed to be more connected to a point just before sleep, almost like I had dreamed of it but only a fraction of a moment that I later recognised. Anyway, as I started to fully appreciate the concept of chaos I started to wonder if these ideas gel at all.

I believe in chaos more than I believe what my eyes see and what my ears hear, however these moments of de-ja vú are indisputable to me also. I would like to know how other practices incorporate de-ja vú into their beliefs, and just any thoughts in general.

Pre-emptive thankies to all!

I think I experienced it more when I was younger.  In fact, I can't remember the last time I did experience it. Wink

No explanation; it could be a hiccup in the frontal lobes.

Or it could be when they change something in The Matrix. Cheesy

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« Reply #13: May 31, 2007, 08:36:31 am »

In the example you gave I feel that it isn't so much a 'cure' as a means-to-an-end, clearly it's better than the alternative however no-one should be put on anti-depressants and that be the end of the story. Thinking 'holistically' the drugs should be used in conjunction with other treatments in the aim of eventually living without medication.

So if it ain't perfect, it's not a science?

Also, when you're taking psychiatric medication, you're SUPPOSED to get therapy at the same time, at least to start.  If you've simply got a brain imbalance that can't be cured any other way, though, dude, I'd take the drugs.

it doesn't mean MEDICINE isn't a science.  It means people aren't identical carbon copy clones of each other.  That's not medicine's fault!
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« Reply #14: May 31, 2007, 08:38:29 am »

So if it ain't perfect, it's not a science?

Also, when you're taking psychiatric medication, you're SUPPOSED to get therapy at the same time, at least to start.  If you've simply got a brain imbalance that can't be cured any other way, though, dude, I'd take the drugs.

it doesn't mean MEDICINE isn't a science.  It means people aren't identical carbon copy clones of each other.  That's not medicine's fault!

Shadow, thanks for articulating the things I was trying to come up with a way to express. Smiley
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