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Author Topic: Chaos and De-ja vú  (Read 8551 times)
RandallS
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« Reply #15: May 31, 2007, 08:48:08 am »

It's only that while working within the NHS I've witnessed people getting lost in the system, having a 'diagnosis' applied and then little else is achieved.

This sounds more like evidence of a bureaucracy problem than evidence that psychology is bunk.

Quote
Many treatments and drugs used are new and generally have a small success rate. 'Cures' are rare.

Many drugs have a high success rate at allowing people to get on with their life while using them.

Quote
Replying to Randall, even people who are treated for anorexia die, I only stuck that under 'social' as in many cases it's caused by a society's obsession with being thin, not because it's more convenient for society to keep them there.

ALL people eventually die, so I guess your statement to true in that trivial sense, but I've known two people who had anorexia, were treated for it, and are still alive years later. I have no reason to suspect that these two people are exceptional.
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« Reply #16: May 31, 2007, 08:52:13 am »



Just a side note, elektrofreek...  When replying to specific points made to multiple people, could you please quote/reply to each post you're replying to separately?  It helps us keep track of the conversation much more easily.  Smiley

Thanks!
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« Reply #17: May 31, 2007, 08:53:24 am »

However it can be hard to find two people with the same idea of what 'health' is, so the possibility of someone reaching that state is reduced, along with many doctors unwillingness to take patients off medications once they've been prescribed.

You know the wrong doctors. Most doctors I've met are not very eager to prescribe more medication than they have to.

Quote
EverFool, I'm afraid to say that medicine (and by extension psychology) isn't a 'true' science as there are far too many variables to take into account.

So basically anything that doesn't have the final and complete answer to everything isn't true science? I think you just talked all science out of existence - I'm pretty sure that there are still unsolved mathermatical equations as well. I'm certainly not denying that most sciences are a work in progress, but to declare them not-true-science based on that seems nonsensical to me. Not-true-science, to me, would be de claring everything finished, just accepting everything at the status quo and no longer going after better answers.

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I'm not claiming that there haven't been countless people that have benefited from modern medical practices, or that modern scientific techniques aren't applied however for it to be 'true' the same treatment would produce the same results for all, and that just isn't the case.

...so if we start messing with results to make them all the same, it will be true science? Whereas trying to work out what the patterns are and why isn't?

--Chabas
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RandallS
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« Reply #18: May 31, 2007, 09:00:31 am »

EverFool, I'm afraid to say that medicine (and by extension psychology) isn't a 'true' science as there are far too many variables to take into account.

Err, NO science qualifies as true science under this definition as there are always lots of variables in you are working with the real world (as opposed to doing thought experiments).

Quote
and Re: Universal Truth, I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong, however care to give me a few examples contrary first?

A simple one: Math isn't a "universal truth." It's an completely arbitrary and artificial system. We have created it in such a way that it can be used to tell us things about reality, but it is a human creation not a universal truth built in to reality.
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« Reply #19: May 31, 2007, 07:43:21 pm »

Ok in a post that is totally unrelated to every one else's haha, I will attempt to answer deja vu and what it means to me.  I think of time as if everything we think as linear time is all happening concurrently, so all our pasts, presents, and futures are all at the same time, so deja vu is when you have felt a moment happen before in your own time line, and since all time is happening at the same time, it is a realization of an event that you have felt happen in this concurrent time system, or a precognitive thing you have felt in the past, that it would happen, and it has now occurred, or it is a similar action to something you have done in the past or will in the future.  Perhaps you have dreamed that moment in time before, or saw or felt it somehow, and now it is coming true.  Hope this makes sense!

Gina

In the first part of my life de-ja vú was always a notion that confused me, and I vividly remember the first time I experienced the sensation. It wasn't a significant event, I was simply walking down a road with two people I had just met. However the feeling seemed to drive me forward and ever since then my life seemed to have been randomly marked with moments of unremembered recollection like this.

The first time it happened occurred not long after I had begun to experiment with meditation, although I was raised RC my mum in a previous life had practiced yoga and I had found some mental exercises in some very old worn books. I didn't keep it up for very long (life inevitably got in the way), but I always thought that my moment of de-ja vú was somehow connected to it.

Later on in my life these sensations sporadically continued, however I was no longer (traditionally) meditating and these seemed to be more connected to a point just before sleep, almost like I had dreamed of it but only a fraction of a moment that I later recognised. Anyway, as I started to fully appreciate the concept of chaos I started to wonder if these ideas gel at all.

I believe in chaos more than I believe what my eyes see and what my ears hear, however these moments of de-ja vú are indisputable to me also. I would like to know how other practices incorporate de-ja vú into their beliefs, and just any thoughts in general.

Pre-emptive thankies to all!
[/quote]
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« Reply #20: May 31, 2007, 07:54:48 pm »

Ok in a post that is totally unrelated to every one else's haha, I will attempt to answer deja vu and what it means to me.  I think of time as if everything we think as linear time is all happening concurrently, so all our pasts, presents, and futures are all at the same time, so deja vu is when you have felt a moment happen before in your own time line, and since all time is happening at the same time, it is a realization of an event that you have felt happen in this concurrent time system, or a precognitive thing you have felt in the past, that it would happen, and it has now occurred, or it is a similar action to something you have done in the past or will in the future.  Perhaps you have dreamed that moment in time before, or saw or felt it somehow, and now it is coming true.  Hope this makes sense!

Gina

You've reminded me of a time or two when I had dejá vu, but things weren't quite the same as I "remembered" them.  That is to say, from the time that the scene was first seen, to the time it actually happened, something had changed.

Too bad I didn't keep a journal back then. Undecided
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« Reply #21: June 01, 2007, 08:43:23 am »

Ok in a post that is totally unrelated to every one else's haha, I will attempt to answer deja vu and what it means to me.  I think of time as if everything we think as linear time is all happening concurrently, so all our pasts, presents, and futures are all at the same time, so deja vu is when you have felt a moment happen before in your own time line, and since all time is happening at the same time, it is a realization of an event that you have felt happen in this concurrent time system, or a precognitive thing you have felt in the past, that it would happen, and it has now occurred, or it is a similar action to something you have done in the past or will in the future.  Perhaps you have dreamed that moment in time before, or saw or felt it somehow, and now it is coming true.  Hope this makes sense!

It makes perfect sense.

Lyall Watson, in Gifts of Unknown Things, says that deja vu is a premonition of the future.  He says each space in time contains information about the whole of space, so therein each moment holds information of both the past and the future.  Significant events disturb the area of space-time in which they happen and make "waves" which flow out in all directions.  Some people are very sensitive to these waves and pick them up.  The only problem is that waves travel at the speed of light and pass too fast for us to make any sense of them.  But when the waves we naturally produce (energy) engages the waves of another event, the pattern slows down and we perceive the event in advance.  The problem is we cannot see this event so we think it is a memory.  Then when we reach the point where the event takes place, we think it has all happened before.

Deja vu happens many times everyday.  We simply need to learn to pay more attention in order to perceive these occurrences.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 09:34:51 am by Annan » Logged

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« Reply #22: June 01, 2007, 09:01:03 am »

Cool!

Gina Smiley

It makes perfect sense.

Lyall Watson, in Gifts of Unknown Things, says that deja vu is a premonition of the future.  He says each space in time contains information about the whole of space, so therein each moment holds information of both the past and the future.  Significant events disturb the area of space-time in which they happen and make "waves" which flow out in all directions.  Some people are very sensitive to these waves and pick them up.  The only problem is that waves travel at the speed of light and pass too fast for us to make any sense of them.  But when the waves we naturally produce (energy) engages the waves of another event, the pattern slows down and we perceive the event in advance.  The problem is we cannot see this event so we think it is a memory.  Then when we reach the point where the event takes place, we think it has all happened before.

Deja vu happens many times everyday.  We simply need to learn to pay more attention in order to perceive this occurrences.
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« Reply #23: June 01, 2007, 11:11:49 am »

Whoa, I think something did change. I don't know if I'm just not articulating myself properly but I was never expecting these statements to be taken to the extremities that they have. Bear with me on this one...

This sounds more like evidence of a bureaucracy problem than evidence that psychology is bunk.

I like science, I never meant to make anyone think that I considered the entire body of Psychology as 'bunk' or that Medicine is somehow wrong in some way. However it isn't very scientific to accept anything as correct simply because it was written down (I am still referring to the 'de-ja vú-brain hiccup' idea not other clearly more established and thoroughly researched theories). Although there may have been cases where the brain damage/misfire link is clear, I think that its possible that the brain has a hardwired tool (a 'significance-meter') for use in day to day life, while it could be diseased or damaged, it could also be functioning perfectly fine, and the sensation of 'de-ja vú' may have 'evolved' for a reason.

Quote from: HeartShadow
So if it ain't perfect, it's not a science?

Scientists are forever arguing about the best way to do things, they really really wish they could get things 'perfect' (perfect machinery, perfect model, perfect group to study etc etc etc), however they just have to be satisfied with 'the best they can do'. If a research paper is found to have any significant flaw, its usually thrown in the bin. Harsh, isn't it?

Quote
Also, when you're taking psychiatric medication, you're SUPPOSED to get therapy at the same time, at least to start.

Don't I know it! However, here anyway, theres not enough to go round, and the poor who may need it most are often left with restricted numbers of sessions if they're lucky to get a therapist at all. I hope its different elsewhere.

Quote
...it doesn't mean MEDICINE isn't a science...

Certainly science is used in medicine, but the practice of medicine isn't necessarily a science. Not a hard crunchy science like maths or (classical) physics (quantitative), more of a soft chewy science (qualitative). Mmmm science...

Quote from: RandallS
ALL people eventually die...

Quote from: me
even people who are treated for anorexia die from it,
Fixed it for you.

Quote from: Chabas
You know the wrong doctors. Most doctors I've met are not very eager to prescribe more medication than they have to.

This is certainly true of newer younger doctors (and nurses), however you can still come across cases to the contrary.

Quote
So basically anything that doesn't have the final and complete answer to everything isn't true science?

No, it just means you have to be careful who you listen to, and what you take as fact.

Quote
so if we start messing with results to make them all the same, it will be true science?

Clearly not, and I'm not really sure what you're meaning from this.

Quote
...isn't a 'true' science as there are far too many variables to take into account...
Quote from: RandallS
Err, NO science qualifies as true science under this definition as there are always lots of variables in you are working with the real world (as opposed to doing thought experiments).

Science tries to take out the unknown variables or use controls in more difficult, variable-strewn real life scenarios.

Quote
A simple one: Math isn't a "universal truth." It's an completely arbitrary and artificial system...

People much greater than I have been arguing about the 'universal truth' of maths for much longer than I've been alive, and as I am no mathematician I don't really want to start eating the can of worms I might have opened here. It's just my opinion, however I think that the laws of maths were around before there was a 'brain', or 'mind', to perceive it. 1+1 still equaled 2 regardless of whether there were eyes to check 1 was really simply 1.

Phew
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« Reply #24: June 01, 2007, 11:20:02 am »

elektrofreek,

Thanks for quoting everyone...  But you really need to use the "Quote/Reply" function on each post you're replying to, and reply to them individually.  Otherwise we don't get the link back to the post you're quoting, which is at least as important as the quote itself (if not moreso).

Edited later than we'd normally allow to point out that the error of the below has been realized.  See, I keep telling you guys we're only human...  Post to follow with explanation, retraction and apology.

Fixed it for you.


*** MOD HAT ON ***I almost hate to put on my mod hat here, because I know you meant well...  But going back and editing your post to change the content after it has been replied to is a pretty clear rules violation and I can't in good conscience let it slide.  When you do this, suddenly we're not all having the same conversation anymore, and the comments that followed about not everyone dying from anorexia look foolish and out of place because they're no longer in response to the same thing they were in response to before.  If you need to make a correction like this in the future, please just start a new post rather than editing the old one.

Thank you.

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« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 11:28:33 am by Star, Reason: Adding bold-text. » Logged

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« Reply #25: June 01, 2007, 11:22:24 am »

Lyall Watson, in Gifts of Unknown Things, says that deja vu is a premonition of the future.  He says each space in time contains information about the whole of space, so therein each moment holds information of both the past and the future.

Deja vu happens many times everyday.  We simply need to learn to pay more attention in order to perceive these occurrences.

Thanks for this, and thanks to gayars for sharing. I hadn't considered the concept of de-ja vú in any other time frame than linear time. I think the 'waves' could also be described as 'fractals' and patterns of events that may be picked up on subconsciously.

Worth pondering, thanks again!
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« Reply #26: June 01, 2007, 11:26:02 am »

Sorry Star and everyone!

I thought it would be ok as I wasn't actually going back to my original post and editing what I had said, I only did it that way as it seemed to be the simplest way of sorting (showing?) the source of the breakdown of communication.

I'll get the knack of dealing with lots of quotes eventually, but thanks for your points anyway!
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« Reply #27: June 01, 2007, 11:32:05 am »

Sorry Star and everyone!

I thought it would be ok as I wasn't actually going back to my original post and editing what I had said, I only did it that way as it seemed to be the simplest way of sorting (showing?) the source of the breakdown of communication.

No, I owe you an apology, a BIG one.  I saw what you wrote and thought you were saying that you were going back and editing your original post, which was what the problem was.  After warning you, I went back to get the post number for my records...  and discovered you hadn't edited it.   Embarrassed  What you did was exactly what you should have done, it just wasn't clear from what you said that you weren't editing the original post.

So--primo example of mods being human and therefore fallible here.  The warning is retracted, won't count against you at all, and my sincere apologies for this.
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« Reply #28: June 01, 2007, 11:35:18 am »

So--primo example of mods being human and therefore fallible here.  The warning is retracted, won't count against you at all, and my sincere apologies for this.

Its all good! You're only doing your job, a tricky job, I'll just try and be more clear and simple with my posts in the future.
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