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Author Topic: Chaos, an element?  (Read 5968 times)
Nimue
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« Topic Start: July 11, 2010, 06:58:01 am »

I know this is probably going to sound horribly naive, but I had someone tell me once that chaos is an element, much the same as earth, air, fire and water.  He gave an explanation that it is the primal energy of all those elements combined.  Is this true?
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« Reply #1: July 11, 2010, 08:18:24 am »

I know this is probably going to sound horribly naive, but I had someone tell me once that chaos is an element, much the same as earth, air, fire and water.  He gave an explanation that it is the primal energy of all those elements combined.  Is this true?

I don't think so, but as I'm not sure what he means either by "chaos" or "the primal energy of all those elements combined" I'm just guessing. 
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« Reply #2: July 11, 2010, 08:25:09 am »

I know this is probably going to sound horribly naive, but I had someone tell me once that chaos is an element, much the same as earth, air, fire and water.  He gave an explanation that it is the primal energy of all those elements combined.  Is this true?

It IS something I've come across in fiction - not Pagan works specifically, but it's not an unheard of idea.

Could be a case of someone taking an idea from fiction, going with it, and then forgetting where they got it from.
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« Reply #3: July 11, 2010, 11:13:21 am »

I know this is probably going to sound horribly naive, but I had someone tell me once that chaos is an element, much the same as earth, air, fire and water.  He gave an explanation that it is the primal energy of all those elements combined.  Is this true?

Back when I was a Chaote, I took the view that Chaos contained everything within it.  Not that it was made of everything, but that everything arose from it.
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« Reply #4: July 11, 2010, 04:19:14 pm »

Back when I was a Chaote, I took the view that Chaos contained everything within it.  Not that it was made of everything, but that everything arose from it.


That is along the lines of what he was trying to say.  He told me he was using chaos energy for pretty much everything, and at that time I did not know much about elemental energies, I just remember it gave me a weird prickly feeling.  Also, he said that only a few select people are able to use it.  I'm just trying to figure out if there is any truth in what he was saying, or if he was just someone who made up their own element that only he could use.
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« Reply #5: July 12, 2010, 05:15:30 pm »

That is along the lines of what he was trying to say.  He told me he was using chaos energy for pretty much everything, and at that time I did not know much about elemental energies, I just remember it gave me a weird prickly feeling.  Also, he said that only a few select people are able to use it.  I'm just trying to figure out if there is any truth in what he was saying, or if he was just someone who made up their own element that only he could use.
What Everfool said about everything arising from it makes sense to me - if I were fitting that into an elemental framework, it wouldn't be as "the other elements combined" (the term I've usually seen used for that is "spirit"), but as "the raw stuff from which elements form".

Are there people who use that undifferentiated "raw stuff"?  Yes; I have myself (it's not particularly useful, though, until you give it form/direction, at which point it's not undifferentiated raw stuff anymore).  Is it Chaos, or chaos energy, in a definitive way?  Not really; that's a term of convenience as far as I'm concerned - I have no way to know whether your acquaintance meant anything like the same thing I would if I used that terminology (which I might, but more likely would avoid using).

The bit about only a select few being able to use it... well, relatively few folks do use it, but that's as likely to be because they're working with different frameworks/systems, not because they're not Of The Select Few.  Sounds to me like he was just bragging about how Special he is.  I'm guessing he also made a big deal about how powerful it (and therefore he) was, too - which, see my parenthetical remark above about usefulness.

IOW, he wasn't just making stuff up, but he was definitely spinning it to make himself sound powerful and important.  And there's enough "spin" BS in there that I suspect he was mostly going by stuff he'd read, and possibly hadn't understood well, not by anything he'd actually worked with.

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« Reply #6: July 12, 2010, 10:32:37 pm »



The bit about only a select few being able to use it... well, relatively few folks do use it, but that's as likely to be because they're working with different frameworks/systems, not because they're not Of The Select Few.  Sounds to me like he was just bragging about how Special he is.  I'm guessing he also made a big deal about how powerful it (and therefore he) was, too - which, see my parenthetical remark above about usefulness.


You are right about that, he is the main reason I'm a solitary.  But he did teach me a lot of useful techniques I would not have come across otherwise, so I thought I would double check on some things I was not sure about.
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« Reply #7: July 13, 2010, 01:46:22 am »

I know this is probably going to sound horribly naive, but I had someone tell me once that chaos is an element, much the same as earth, air, fire and water.  He gave an explanation that it is the primal energy of all those elements combined.  Is this true?
Well In ancient Greek mythology chaos was one of the 14 primordial deities, which were supposed to personify elements of the universe.
Chaos - Cosmos
Anake - Destiny
Aether - Upper Sky
Chronos - Time
Erebus - Dark
Eros - Love
Gaia - Mother Earth
Hemera - Day
Nyx - Night
Phanes - Procreation & Life
Pontus - Sea God
Tartarus - Hell
Thalassa - Sea Godess
Uranus - The sky.

But personally chaos is not really an  solid element, just a way energy works. To say you have control over chaos is to say you have control over reality itself. and that, that seems very unrealistic.

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« Reply #8: July 13, 2010, 04:28:50 am »




I would note that the view of Chaos from Chaos magicians and, say, yourself, are somewhat different.  Which is to say, I think you're talking about something different.
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« Reply #9: November 17, 2010, 03:22:53 pm »

I know this is probably going to sound horribly naive, but I had someone tell me once that chaos is an element, much the same as earth, air, fire and water.  He gave an explanation that it is the primal energy of all those elements combined.  Is this true?

As an element? I am not sure.

But I have studied some Gnostic traditions, and I came upon a path called "Chaos Gnosticism", yet it was also called "Anti-Cosmic Satanism". It was followed by the MLO, (Misanthropic Luciferian Order). I think they changed their name now to the Temple of the Black Light. If you are into Black Metal, and if you've ever heard Dissection, they based their last CD on the MLO's beliefs. The lead singer/guitarist shot himself in 2006 during a ritual.


Basically they believe that the Universe we live in is called Cosmos. Cosmos is made of 3 spatial dimensions ( Height, Width, Depth) and 1 linear time dimension. They say that the Cosmos was created by the Demiurge (the creator God in Gnosticism. He is considered an evil, imperfect God, and thus created an imperfect universe). 

They believe that the realm that stands in opposition to Cosmos, is Chaos. Chaos, unlike Cosmos, is made of infinite dimensions, and was he original realm of existence which was ruled by the dragon mother Tiamat and her husband Absu. When Marduk killed Absu, he fled and created the Cosmos as a way to escape the wrath of Chaos. They believe that whatever you do to the flesh, whatever happens in the Cosmic realm, does not matter. Don't quote me on this, but I believe that they believe such things such as murder and destruction are inherently good because it is destroying the Cosmic order and thus allowing small bits of Chaos to flow into Cosmos.


So in a way, it is an element, but also much more than that. They are Satanists because they believe 11 Gods of Chaos rule over the realm of Chaos. The eleven each have an aeon, the highest of the Gods being Satan-Lucifer. They believe that the 11 united as one is the Black Dragon mother Azerate, child of the dead Absu and Tiamat.

Quite Nihilistic to say. Too radical for me, because the Temple, which is based in Sweden, is purported to burn Churches and are a leading group who smuggle Cocaine into Sweden.
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