Close Encounters of the Fundy Kind

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[Nevyn]

LOL I've been unable to resist replying like that

hahah I had to threaten banning my SO from the largest pagan conference in this area of the country for fear of reprisal's, he's generally not one for mixing with the pagan scene, and in a wicked five minutes had a great t-shirt made up to wear, that said on the front - "Jesus Saves" and on the back "Satan Scores".

Hehe I was so in the dog house for that, but I see his point pagans can be as fundy as any other demnomination. And well it's his sick sense of humour I suppose.

[Nevyn]

Er, wouldn't that make her a "Saturn worshipper" then?  Just askin'.

Nope saturn is saturday, sun is sunday

[SunflowerP]

I generally enjoy discussing religion with fundamentalists of the non-fundie variety. Unlike their fundie counterparts, the discussions are usually no different in tone than than some of the interfaith discussions we have here.

In fact, one of my most enjoyable experiences was attending a week of lecture/discussions on special creation at a small fundamentalist church in San Antonio in the late 1970s. (They put an ad in the paper about it saying "Evolutionists welcome" so I came.) It has always made me keep a careful distinction between fundies and fundamentalists because the difference is quickly obvious if one is fortunate enough to run into fundamentalist who aren't fundies.

Yes, you came to mind particularly when I was posting my story - you're always careful to make that distinction, and to remind others to make it; now I know why.  My Pentecostal friend isn't the only reason I share and value your emphasis on the distinction (it's one of the reasons I love TC), but he's definitely part of it.

Sunflower

[Star]

Nope saturn is saturday, sun is sunday

I think that was the point--the person saying the Sunday worshipper was a Sun worshipper was someone who worshipped on Saturday, if I understood the post correctly.  So applying her own logic to her own practices...  Saturn worshipper. 

[Adoratrix]

“What are you, a god?”

“My boyfriend says I am,” I said without missing a beat.

Ha! I love it!

At least this conversation with my first pushy proselytizer gave me ideas on how to improve my skills for next time.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who wants to mouth off to these people. Thanks for sharing!

[guineith]

Like I said, I once was a fundie! OMG! I cringe! I think I told the story of my meeting with some JWs and how this helped to crystallize my own path.
Many years ago, when I was a Fundie, I prayed and asked God what would happen to all the people that missionaries hadn't "reached" yet. He directed me to a book called The Gospel in the Stars by Joseph Seiss, which basically said that folks all over the world have access to an archetypal religion through Astrology. This religion will lead anyone genuinely interested to God without any human intervention (it will lead them to Goddess too, BTW!). So proselytisation is really a futile waste of time. It creates emnity, destroys ancient cultures and starts wars that kill millions of people every year. Since then I have learnt that there are also other paths in (such as Tarot, Mysticism, Qaballah, you name it!), but astrology is the one that is most available, since everybody can see the night sky, even if they have to drive 50 or 100 miles to do so. If you can see the night sky, you can start to learn Astrology.

Now I am a much more mellow soul. I don't have to find Jesus, because everywhere I look, I see him. He pops up in ancient mythology as Aten-Ra (Amun-Ra), Osiris, Krishna, Orpheus and a multitude of others.  Moses wrote a psalm, (Psalm 90) but really it wasn't him that wrote it. It was Pharaoh Akhenaten. It was a psalm written to Aten-Ra, the Sun of Righteousness, but it is generally interpreted by most Bible Scholars as being a prophecy of the Christ. This creates a little problem for all those Fundie preachers who say that the Egyptian gods are all devils out of Hell. Is Aten-Ra (alias Ra, alias Horus) a devil? There are Christians who say that Horus is THE Devil! I would say that Psalm 90 is a bit of a problem for them.

The Bible also says that we should earnestly seek out Sophia, because it was She who was there at the beginning of the world with God, ordaining the best way to make Creation. Gee, isn't Sophia a Pagan Goddess?

Then, when God chastises the Egyptians for not letting go of the Hebrew slaves, he warns Moses that the Destroyer will come (Seti?) and will kill all of the firstborn sons of the Egyptians.
Yet when that time arrives, the Bible says that the Lord was the one who slew the Egyptian sons. So who was it, Seti or the Lord? You tell me, then we'll both know.

When fundies try to save me, I smile. I am saved, I have been saved from a religion that was narrow and hateful and now enjoy a life of peace and security that I formerly could not have begun to contemplate, because the All in All (Panentheistic One) is looking after me. He shows me things to come, what to do and how to act and because of that life goes well for me. If I ever meet anyone, I know that they too are on a spiritual voyage. Sometimes we can help each other, but we are always two ships sailing side by side, one not interfering with the voyage of the other.

I only wish I knew what I know now years ago, but at least now I do.

[Guenthecat]

Er, wouldn't that make her a "Saturn worshipper" then?  Just askin'.

Oh but noooo, Saturday is the Sabbath!  *rolls eyes*

Yeah, most of her arguments were that way.  You'd have thought that Ellen White was more important then Jesus, actually.

[Adoratrix]

Oh but noooo, Saturday is the Sabbath!  *rolls eyes*

Yeah, most of her arguments were that way.  You'd have thought that Ellen White was more important then Jesus, actually.

Well, we all know the Beatles are.

[vizenos]

Have you ever matched wits with a fundamentalist (of any religion)? Lived to tell about it?

Well, not in the last couple of months, but my lifetime total of such encounters would have to number in the hundreds, at least--if not in the thousands, since I spent several years moderating the PODS "Spirituality and World Peace" echo, and have been hanging out on the 'net in recent years.

I met my first one quite recently. We're both students at the same university and we even have some courses in common but I never really talked to her until one morning, we just started chatting on the bus. I was reading something for class and she whipped out her Bible.

Always a bad sign....

When we got off to transfer routes, she started asking me questions about what I believe. At first, I skirted the issue and said Protestant, born and raised but then decided to be honest and identified as a ploytheist. As we got on our way, she whipped out her Bible again and tried to make me read certain underlined passages aloud, on a crowded bus, and could not accept that I found that vastly inappropriate. So, she put it away and we got to the trick questions portion of the event. "How do pagans get saved?"

Possible answers:
1) From what?
2) One at a time, just like most other folks, I guess.
3) I don't know about other folks; me, I encountered a miserly deity who saved me, and it took me almost three months to break out of his vault!

"What do you think will happen when you die?"

Possible answer:
Well, dang, I expect I'll be rather, like, dead, right?

and all that Sneaky Deep crap. I was too surprised to be offended and I answered the best I could.

People like this expect you will give answers that are both serious and honest, so it's a big mistake to give them that sort of answer.  The best thing you can do, IMO, is change the subject and, if possible, divert them into a "reality" of high weirdness.  The best example of this that I've seen, so far, comes from Charles R. Privitera, M.D.:

CRP:  Do you like pancakes?

Victim:  Well, yes, but....

CRP:  Then you simply must come visit me; I have trunks and trunks full of them!

Victim:  Well, err, it was nice meeting you....

Eventually, we went our separate ways for different classes and that was the last time I talked to her. In hindsight, it was probably Someone's influence that kept me as surprised as I was. Looking back on it now, I'm really irritated with her and anything I say now is probably going to reinforce her negative view of non-Christians. Oh well, I have until September to get past the urge to taunt.

Aww, don't fight it, Adoratrix--go with it.  You'll be glad you did.  Find a Discordian e-list and fill your psyche to the brim with weird and absurd things to say to her. 

Regards,
Jim

[vizenos]

People like that, who believe that the history and mind of their God can be gleaned from a single volume, seem to have some fundamental (pun intended) insecurity that makes them want to press their beliefs onto others to validate their claim.

You're absolutely right!  The basic things I always try to keep in mind, when I have an encounter of this sort, are:

1) Fundamentalists worship a book, rather than any real and living deity.

2) They are trying to cram their faith down your neck to reassure themselves.

3) Therefore, their faith is weak, not strong.

4) The "inerrant" book they worship is in fact replete with demonstrable errors.

5) All traditional and mainstream Christians reject both their arguments and their conclusions.

Therefore, you're holding all the good cards in this game, and they are stuck with a busted flush.

Regards,
Jim

[vizenos]

Nope. The Bible was older than the WORLD. It had just been sitting on God's coffee table, I suppose.

I didn't actually win that argument because I couldn't figure out how to argue reasonably with a statement that so obviously defied all logic.

Well, a promising start would be to say, "I know the Bible is older than the world--I wrote the damn thing, you know!  I'm not proud of that, but money was tight at the time, and there weren't any "true confessions" magazines, yet.

Regards,
Jim

[vizenos]

I generally enjoy discussing religion with fundamentalists of the non-fundie variety. Unlike their fundie counterparts, the discussions are usually no different in tone than than some of the interfaith discussions we have here.

Strictly speaking, however, a Fundamentalist is one who subscribes to the five following "Fundamentals":

1) Inerrancy of the Scriptures
2) The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus
3) The doctrine of substitutionary atonement through God's grace and human faith
4) The bodily resurrection of Jesus
5) The authenticity of Christ's miracles (or, alternatively, his pre-millennial second coming)[4]

For more information on this, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity

Now, no Catholic or Orthodox Christian would disagree with items 2 through 5a, but most if not all of us would see item #1 as indicative of a particular form of idolatry known as "bibliolatry", i.e. worship of a book, rather than of the living God.

Many of us would also have some difficulty with item #5b (Christ's pre-millennial second coming, as well.  While we believe that Christ will indeed return to judge the living and the dead, pre-millennialism is at best an extremely questionable paradigm, theologically.

The point behind all this rambling is that, strictly speaking, a Fundamentalist is one who believes in and confesses *all* of those Five Fundamentals quoted above.   

Regards,
Jim

[RandallS]

Strictly speaking, however, a Fundamentalist is one who subscribes to the five following "Fundamentals":

Modern fundies (as opposed to true Fundamentalists -- which seem to be a rare breed today) seem to have added a few required beliefs: the belief that Christ preached dog-eat-dog capitalism, low taxes, and opposed welfare. Also that if you are "right with God" you will be healthy and wealthy.  Christ also considered abortion and gay marriage the chief dangers to the soul even though he never mentioned them.

[WarHorse]

1) Fundamentalists worship a book, rather than any real and living deity.

Excellent condensation, I thank you for that.

From my perspective, the Divine is in constant flux; once you write it down, it has already changed.

[vizenos]

Hi, Randall,

Modern fundies (as opposed to true Fundamentalists -- which seem to be a rare breed today)

Not as rare as one might wish, unfortunately, at least not if my own experiences are any sort of reliable guide.

seem to have added a few required beliefs: the belief that Christ preached dog-eat-dog capitalism, low taxes, and opposed welfare.

And they can quote specific literalist though out-of-context scriptures which they can misinterpret to support those positions, too, which only proves that the devil isn't the only one who quotes scripture.  Nor are his interpretations of it the most demonic ones possible, unfortunately.

Also that if you are "right with God" you will be healthy and wealthy.

What a huge, steaming bowl of jackal-barf!   

I don't need to tell you that all of that is simply an heretical pretext to blame the victim for whatever the victim may be suffering; you know that as well as I do.

Christ also considered abortion and gay marriage the chief dangers to the soul even though he never mentioned them.

Well, I confess I have some problems with elective abortion, which is why I've decided never to have one.

As for gay marriage, if I thought for a moment that Christ felt that way about it, I wouldn't favor it as I most certainly do.

And of course, you know as well as I do the reason why fundies oppose gay marriage: sex outside of marriage is considered by the Church to be sinful, so if gay marriage is forbidden, same-sex sexual relations will never be considered acceptable in any culturally Christian society.

They miss the point, of course.  The point is, each person needs to judge his own sins, and let everyone else judge theirs.

I know you've noticed what I've noticed, which is that time after time, we've seen fundamentalist preachers who have spent their lives condemning the sins of others, caught in their own sins and publicly disgraced and ruined--because they spent all their time judging others, instead of judging themselves.

There's a lesson in that, somewhere, I suspect. 

Regards,
Jim

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