Doreen Valiente and the Murray Thesis

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[Sylvan]

Recently I've been attempting to learn more about Doreen Valiente's views on the origins and development of modern Wicca, a subject that I find particularly interesting. However, my exposure to her views on Wicca's origins has so far been relegated to her Witchcraft for Tomorrow and Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the Moon, both of which I enjoyed reading. However, after reading these two books I was left wondering if Valiente accepted the Murray thesis of the European witch cult throughout the entirety of her life?

In Witchcraft for Tomorrow Valiente says, "There need be no doubt that the Celtic Horned god was worshipped and invoked in these islands, just as he was in Gaul and elsewhere in western Europe. Margaret Murray's explanation of witchcraft as the underground survival of the old pagan religion is to that extent supported by evidence" (p. 26). It's the "...to that extent..." portion of this excerpt that leads me to wonder whether she may have had reservations about elements of the Murray thesis even in 1978 when this book was published.

In The Triumph of the Moon Hutton says, of Valiente's 1989 history of modern pagan witchcraft, "Thus she noted that the Murray thesis had been questioned, but avoided tackling the specific doubts which had been raised, stating instead that it was 'hard to see' why she 'should have aroused the ire of other scholars to such an extent'" (p. 382) He later adds that "...her (Valiente's) enduring greatness lay in the very fact that she was so completely and stong-mindedly dedicated to finding and declaring her own truth, in a world in which the signposts to it were themselves in a state of almost complete confusion" (pp.383-384). This would lead me to believe that Valiente never made her views on the Murray thesis particularly clear.

Is anyone aware of whether additional information is available regarding Valiente's views on the Murray thesis beyond this? I haven't had access to any of her other books, and I thought that she might address the matter further in one (or more) of those published after 1978. However, since Hutton wrote the above in 1999, the year Valiente died, I figured that this was unlikely as he would have probably included such information in his book.

[yewberry]

Is anyone aware of whether additional information is available regarding Valiente's views on the Murray thesis beyond this? I haven't had access to any of her other books, and I thought that she might address the matter further in one (or more) of those published after 1978. However, since Hutton wrote the above in 1999, the year Valiente died, I figured that this was unlikely as he would have probably included such information in his book.

She certainly never published anything that directly refuted it (beyond the kind of things you quoted, which seemed to imply some doubts at least to the whole thesis).  If anyone knows something to the contrary, they're not talkin'.

Brina

[Sylvan]

She certainly never published anything that directly refuted it (beyond the kind of things you quoted, which seemed to imply some doubts at least to the whole thesis).  If anyone knows something to the contrary, they're not talkin'.

Brina

That's certainly the impression that I've gotten so far. It would be nice to learn more about this subject, but I'm not expecting things to get much clearer. Valiente was certainly an interesting woman.

[Nyktipolos]

It's nice to see people reading the books written by the founders of Wicca, for a change, if one is looking into Wicca (or Wiccan-ish paths, etc etc). I never see them recommended enough. One day I hope to check them out (even though I don't follow a Wiccan-themed path).

Honestly, it sounds what Valiente was trying to say, at least imho, is that what we know of the Horned One's presence and worship in those particular areas she mentions is what Murray got right, but probably not much else (at least in areas of worship).

[Sylvan]

It's nice to see people reading the books written by the founders of Wicca, for a change, if one is looking into Wicca (or Wiccan-ish paths, etc etc). I never see them recommended enough. One day I hope to check them out (even though I don't follow a Wiccan-themed path).

At the moment I'm reevaluating where I might fit along the Pagan continuum and part of that process has involved taking a second look at Wicca. I was a practicing neo-Wiccan several years ago, although I tend toward a general recon-ish approach today. As I began to look into the origins of Wicca most signs pointed back toward Gardner and Valiente. I was able to find Gardner's Witchcraft Today fairly easily, but Valiente's books were harder to come by. I visited a local shop that carries a wide range of books and caters to the neo-Pagan and/or occult communities in the area. While they have a decent selection of books, I was surprised by the fact that one of the store's managers didn't know who Doreen Valiente was when I asked if they carried any of her work.

He decided to order both Witchcraft for Tomorrow and An ABC of Witchcraft for the store after I told him a bit about Valiente. When the books came in I bought Witchcraft for Tomorrow because it was closer to what I was looking for.  One of the folks working the register, a young woman in her mid twenties who was sporting a visible pentacle ring, also had no clue who Valiente was. She also seemed genuinely interested when I described Valiente's role in early Wicca. So, I agree with you that the books of the founders of Wicca don't seem to be as visible as they probably should, although I'm not certain why. I've read various suggestions and possible explanations for this and I imagine that a combination of factors is likely responsible.

Honestly, it sounds what Valiente was trying to say, at least imho, is that what we know of the Horned One's presence and worship in those particular areas she mentions is what Murray got right, but probably not much else (at least in areas of worship).

That's how the passage came across to me as well. The impression that I have of Valiente is that she was pretty open to new information and was willing, to a large extent, to consider aspects of such information that challenged some of the early Wiccan origin stories. How far that willingness went is more opaque to me at this point, especially where the core of the Murray thesis is concerned.

[SunflowerP]

I visited a local shop that carries a wide range of books and caters to the neo-Pagan and/or occult communities in the area. While they have a decent selection of books, I was surprised by the fact that one of the store's managers didn't know who Doreen Valiente was when I asked if they carried any of her work.

He decided to order both Witchcraft for Tomorrow and An ABC of Witchcraft for the store after I told him a bit about Valiente. When the books came in I bought Witchcraft for Tomorrow because it was closer to what I was looking for.  One of the folks working the register, a young woman in her mid twenties who was sporting a visible pentacle ring, also had no clue who Valiente was. She also seemed genuinely interested when I described Valiente's role in early Wicca. So, I agree with you that the books of the founders of Wicca don't seem to be as visible as they probably should, although I'm not certain why. I've read various suggestions and possible explanations for this and I imagine that a combination of factors is likely responsible.

Argharghargh.  As a history-of-the-neoPagan-movement geek, I'm not surprised; I run into that sort of thing quite a bit.  But it exasperates me every time.  How can we know who/what we are, if we don't know where we came from?

It sounds like the folks at your local shop are really open to learning about the early history of the movement themselves, and making materials relevant to it available to the community - that's good news.

That's how the passage came across to me as well. The impression that I have of Valiente is that she was pretty open to new information and was willing, to a large extent, to consider aspects of such information that challenged some of the early Wiccan origin stories. How far that willingness went is more opaque to me at this point, especially where the core of the Murray thesis is concerned.

The impression I have is that, while she was quite willing to consider that any given person/theory might be mistaken in many details, she held a strong and lifelong conviction that the basic concept - the survival of religious witchcraft - was true in some form.  Since the very idea of distinguishing between witchcraft-as-religion and witchcraft-as-practical-craft is from Murray - the core of the thesis, as you say - that speaks to what you're finding opaque.  IMO, it's not so much a question of her willingness or unwillingness to consider info that challenged the thesis, as that she would consider any such info, but would do so through the lens of that conviction, so she'd be thinking of the info in terms of clarifying, rather than contradicting, the foundational premise.

I'm not sure if I can source that impression of mine adequately, since it's the collective result of a range of reading - Witchcraft for Tomorrow, particularly its foreword, I can cite certainly because I own it; The Rebirth of Witchcraft is probable but not certain since I read it quite a lot of years ago by borrowing it from a friend; several of her short later writings on her website (IIRC, this was her own website, to which she continued to add material until her death; it has since been maintained by a friend/admirer) contributed, but the site has undergone significant reconstruction since then and I can't be certain if all the things I read have been retained.  It's very likely that the passages in Hutton's Triumph of the Moon that quoted her also contributed to my overall impression.

Sunflower

[Sylvan]

Argharghargh.  As a history-of-the-neoPagan-movement geek, I'm not surprised; I run into that sort of thing quite a bit.  But it exasperates me every time.  How can we know who/what we are, if we don't know where we came from?

It sounds like the folks at your local shop are really open to learning about the early history of the movement themselves, and making materials relevant to it available to the community - that's good news.

I agree completely about the need to know where we came from. These folks were completely open to learning about Valiente, but I was surprised that they had never heard of her at all. I remember running across her name with some regularity years ago, long before I ever actually sought out her books. The "tone," lacking a better term at the moment, of the witchcraft that Valiente presents is very different from what I've encountered in more modern books. That's something that further attracted me to her work.

The impression I have is that, while she was quite willing to consider that any given person/theory might be mistaken in many details, she held a strong and lifelong conviction that the basic concept - the survival of religious witchcraft - was true in some form.  Since the very idea of distinguishing between witchcraft-as-religion and witchcraft-as-practical-craft is from Murray - the core of the thesis, as you say - that speaks to what you're finding opaque.  IMO, it's not so much a question of her willingness or unwillingness to consider info that challenged the thesis, as that she would consider any such info, but would do so through the lens of that conviction, so she'd be thinking of the info in terms of clarifying, rather than contradicting, the foundational premise.

This makes sense given what I've been able to learn about Valiente. I'm growing increasingly amazed by the amount of information that's out there to be sorted through, not only with respect to her work, but regarding the origins of Wicca more generally. And knowing how to sort through it is a major issue as well. Tracking down sources used by one author can lead to other books, that lead to other books, etc. At the moment I'm a graduate student and lack the money for my ever expanding book list!

I'm not sure if I can source that impression of mine adequately, since it's the collective result of a range of reading - Witchcraft for Tomorrow, particularly its foreword, I can cite certainly because I own it; The Rebirth of Witchcraft is probable but not certain since I read it quite a lot of years ago by borrowing it from a friend; several of her short later writings on her website (IIRC, this was her own website, to which she continued to add material until her death; it has since been maintained by a friend/admirer) contributed, but the site has undergone significant reconstruction since then and I can't be certain if all the things I read have been retained.  It's very likely that the passages in Hutton's Triumph of the Moon that quoted her also contributed to my overall impression.

Sunflower

I looked at the website a few years ago, but I had forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder! While I enjoy the study of the history of neo-Paganism for its own sake, I really am involved in a process of clarifying my own spirituality. Having had meaningful experiences via neo-Wicca in the past, I can't help but feel a connection with it. At the same time I have reservations about some of the information that I've uncovered so far. This whole process is very much tied up with my own attempts to determine what's meaningful for me, why, and those things which I can and cannot accept. My inner reconstructionist seems to be constantly at war with my inner sense of doing what "feels" right.   

[TaliesinG]

I was left wondering if Valiente accepted the Murray thesis of the European witch cult throughout the entirety of her life?

I'm not quite sure, but I do remember her falling pretty much wholesale for the Feminist revisionist history regarding the burning times and such.  How much of that evolved over her later years we can't know, unless more of her diaries are perused.

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