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Author Topic: The Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero  (Read 22085 times)
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« Reply #60: August 16, 2010, 05:19:25 pm »

And I think freedom comes with responsibilities: if you have the freedom to do certain things, it means you yourself must make the jugdement wether it's appropriate. What does strike me is that so many in the recent discussions about free speech think the whole judgement thing can be left out - that it is not only allowed by constitution but also totally perfectly fine to hurt people with words. (But that should perhaps not be dealt with by law.)

The problem with "not hurting others with words/ideas" is that some people are very easily hurt. For example, one of my former neighbors was very hurt by the fact that there were non-Christians in the neighborhood. It made her physically sick so there is no doubt in my mind that others stating and practicing their beliefs caused her harm. However, should all those people be required to convert or not practice their religion because their publicly being what they are causes this person pain and suffering? Yes, even just calling people names can hurt them, but putting too much stress on "not hurting others" limits discourse to what does not hurt/upset those who are the least tolerant of others beliefs and opinions.
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« Reply #61: August 16, 2010, 06:16:02 pm »

And now...


The next phase of the political manipulation follies, from the Senate Majority Leader:

Harry Reid weighs in on N.Y. mosque: It 'should be built someplace else'

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2010/08/harry-reid-weighs-in-on-ny-mos.html

Quote
"The First Amendment protects freedom of religion," [Reid spokesperson] Manley wrote in an e-mail. "Senator Reid respects that, but thinks that the mosque should be built someplace else."

Translation: I support religious freedom, except when I don't.

Pathetic. It seems Democrats never tire of portraying themselves as Republican Lite, despite the fact it brings them nothing but ill.
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« Reply #62: August 16, 2010, 06:41:22 pm »

The next phase of the political manipulation follies, from the Senate Majority Leader:

Harry Reid weighs in on N.Y. mosque: It 'should be built someplace else'
Hmph.  I wonder how far away from Ground Zero would be far enough for him to count it as "someplace else"?  'Cause in my books, two blocks away is "someplace else".

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« Reply #63: August 16, 2010, 06:45:04 pm »

Hmph.  I wonder how far away from Ground Zero would be far enough for him to count it as "someplace else"?  'Cause in my books, two blocks away is "someplace else".

My definition of "someplace else" is the same as yours.  Maybe his would be "another borough."
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« Reply #64: August 16, 2010, 06:49:02 pm »

The next phase of the political manipulation follies, from the Senate Majority Leader:

Harry Reid weighs in on N.Y. mosque: It 'should be built someplace else'

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2010/08/harry-reid-weighs-in-on-ny-mos.html

To be honest, I'm not surprised. He can't afford to lose a single vote if he is going to get re-elected and not give a Senate seat to a real wingnut. Sad
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« Reply #65: August 16, 2010, 07:00:53 pm »

The problem with "not hurting others with words/ideas" is that some people are very easily hurt.

I have really low levels of sympathy for people who are invasively hurt by other people's lives.  Unfortunately, the whole "Seriously, mind your own business" framework thing is culturally based, so it's really hard to make the argument.

Meanwhile, I want to smack 90% of the people who are ranting on about this because it isn't a mosque.
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« Reply #66: August 16, 2010, 07:24:45 pm »

To be honest, I'm not surprised. He can't afford to lose a single vote if he is going to get re-elected and not give a Senate seat to a real wingnut. Sad

I'm not surprised either, but I don't find it any less pathetic.

Imagine if a Democrat actually stood up (without backtracking and parsing his language the day after) and said, yes, a mosque near Ground Zero is not only legal, but affirms our highest values that the terrorists tried and failed to destroy. And Americans, it's time to turn your wrath on the Palins and Gingriches and all those who would wrap themselves in the flag while mutilating all it stands for, who take our honored dead and cynically exploit them for their own tawdry political ends.

I'm also getting *really* sick of schmucks from Nevada or Georgia or wherever telling us here in NYC what we should and should not do with Ground Zero. It was a national tragedy, so I guess I get it, but it still grates when they use it as political tool.
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« Reply #67: August 16, 2010, 07:26:54 pm »

Imagine if a Democrat actually stood up (without backtracking and parsing his language the day after) and said, yes, a mosque near Ground Zero is not only legal, but affirms our highest values that the terrorists tried and failed to destroy. And Americans, it's time to turn your wrath on the Palins and Gingriches and all those who would wrap themselves in the flag while mutilating all it stands for, who take our honored dead and cynically exploit them for their own tawdry political ends.

Run for office. I'd vote for you. Smiley

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« Reply #68: August 16, 2010, 07:50:46 pm »

Run for office. I'd vote for you. Smiley

As would I Smiley
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« Reply #69: August 16, 2010, 11:09:40 pm »

I'm not surprised either, but I don't find it any less pathetic.

Imagine if a Democrat actually stood up (without backtracking and parsing his language the day after) and said, yes, a mosque near Ground Zero is not only legal, but affirms our highest values that the terrorists tried and failed to destroy. And Americans, it's time to turn your wrath on the Palins and Gingriches and all those who would wrap themselves in the flag while mutilating all it stands for, who take our honored dead and cynically exploit them for their own tawdry political ends.

I'm also getting *really* sick of schmucks from Nevada or Georgia or wherever telling us here in NYC what we should and should not do with Ground Zero. It was a national tragedy, so I guess I get it, but it still grates when they use it as political tool.

I heard a talk show host today claim that people were viewing Obama's initial support (which he then apparently tried to back peddle out of) as "spitting in the faces of 9/11 victims". It is difficult to fathom how idiotic such a sentiment is, unless of course every family member of the victims of 9/11 are xenophobes (which could be a possibility I guess?). It is being built 2 blocks away, it is a privately owned building which is already an Islamic center, there is a mosque which has been in Manhattan for 40 odd years an additional two blocks away and the entire "stink" strikes me as xenophobic pandering on part of reactionary politicians against a soft target minority group. I am always curious how many Americans would be entirely for banning minority religions altogether, because to me it seems to play out time and time again that unless your a Christian (and to a lesser extent Jewish [but not a "Liberal Jew"]) you do not deserve the right to practice nor express your religion, to the extent that such is anti-American. I realize that the loudest voices get heard more often, but the fact that what is really a non-issue has become one of national debate cause one to wonder just how open many Americans are to religions they do not belong to. At least that is how I see it from my perch from the Great White North.
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« Reply #70: August 17, 2010, 12:26:58 am »


No, if anything, they have a nice smell when they are in bloom.  Maybe you are thinking of ginkgo?

I dunno, I just know it's a flowering tree.
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« Reply #71: August 17, 2010, 12:43:06 am »


Who knows what goes on in his head? I do, however, have the distinct impression that the whole thing is more about populism than anything else (and yes, he needs a lot of security these days, though I'm not aware of any actual attempts on his life). He might be genuinely afraid of them, but he also seems to play it up a lot because he knows it will draw votes.

Well, you live there, so I'm sure you hear a hell of a lot more about him day-to-day than I do.  But from what little I can see from here, it seems that, while he's definitely wrong, it's also not surprising people like him more after incidents like that Danish Cartoons deal.

And as for attempts on his life, I thought that, several years ago, a couple of N. Af. guys tried to lob grenades into a building in which both he and Ayaan Hirsi Ali were, with the intention of killing the pair of them, though I freely admit that I may be wrong about that.

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His party is, tbh, a somewhat scary group. Problems vary from one of their frontmen (Hero Brinkman) having a long history of causing trouble of the fighting kind, to the fact that Wilders still refuse to make this a democratic party with members who can influence party positions on issues, to the fact that they've admitted (though not publicly) to having an election program that is entirely impossible to enact, but "who cares, we won't make it into government anyways". Their election program is also somewhat incoherent, since they seem to pick whatever position will get votes rather than looking for a coherent philosophy on things, and contains several points (like ethnic registration of all Dutch citizens, or outlawing of the Qur'an) that can't be done without serious changes to very central parts of the constitution.

Okay, changing the whole constitution to screw over a given group is NOT COOL.  You'd think you guys were talking about gay marriage in Alabama, here (hahaaa! Cheesy)

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Then there's the free speech thing... There's currently a trial against Wilders for "sowing hate" as we call it here, which Wilders considers absolutely ridiculous. He's said his objections center on freedom of speech, but his defense in the trial is centering on "but everything I said is TRUE". However, mr Free Speech here has now brought charges against a journalist for reposting a tweet threatening him. Consistent he is not.

Hypocrite he may be, but I must say, I don't think that invalidates his point about free speech.  He is using his free speech rights to make an ass of himself, and until and unless he crosses the line into calling for sending the Muslim population into camps or something, he should be allowed to continue to do so.  Allowing people to say whatever they please is a great way to know who to stay the hell away from at all times. Grin
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"Is no one inspired by our present picture of the universe? Our poets do not write about it; our artists do not try to portray this remarkable thing. The value of science remains unsung by singers: you are reduced to hearing not a song or poem, but an evening lecture about it. This is not yet a scientific age."
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« Reply #72: August 17, 2010, 12:50:10 am »

Imagine if a Democrat actually stood up (without backtracking and parsing his language the day after) and said, yes, a mosque near Ground Zero is not only legal, but affirms our highest values that the terrorists tried and failed to destroy. And Americans, it's time to turn your wrath on the Palins and Gingriches and all those who would wrap themselves in the flag while mutilating all it stands for, who take our honored dead and cynically exploit them for their own tawdry political ends.

Woohoo! Altair for President!
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« Reply #73: August 17, 2010, 01:06:21 am »

I wouldn't also but it gets really icky if people use it to deny the same right to others. I think it is sad there are so many people here that think free speech is something that only grants you* the right to hurt, misinform and disrespect others, and rise to demand limitations on that same right of others that do it.

That's human hypocrisy at it's finest, but it doesn't in any way detract from the concept of free speech.  I have the right to say as I please, and you have the right to cry that I shouldn't be allowed to (right up until I'm stopped because you're offended).

Quote
And I think freedom comes with responsibilities: if you have the freedom to do certain things, it means you yourself must make the jugdement wether it's appropriate. What does strike me is that so many in the recent discussions about free speech think the whole judgement thing can be left out - that it is not only allowed by constitution but also totally perfectly fine to hurt people with words. (But that should perhaps not be dealt with by law.)

No one has the right not to be offended.  Some Muslims are offended by images of Muhammed.  Some Christians are offended by Buddy Jesus.  They're just gonna have to live with it if we're going to have a free society, and the free exchange of ideas.

And moreover, offense is in the eye of the beholder.  I remember, a few seasons ago, there was an episode of South Park in which Randy was convinced he was an alcoholic.  He saw a statue of the Virgin Mary on TV that was bleeding out it's ass, and people were saying it was a miracle and lining up to be cured by it's ass-blood.  

He went to be cured, and the pope showed up to verify that it was a genuine miracle.  It turned out the statue was menstruating, and the South Park pope said about it, "the statue is just bleeding out it's vagina, and that's no damn miracle, chicks bleed out their vagina all the time."  Now, initially, I was pretty offended.  But then I thought about it, and I realized: it was a statement about RCC misogyny.

And the point to this story is that some of the most important ideas are also the most offensive, and as soon as people start censoring themselves or others for fear of causing offense, free and open discourse, and the social improvements that result, comes grinding to a halt.
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« Reply #74: August 17, 2010, 01:08:26 am »


Imagine if a Democrat actually stood up (without backtracking and parsing his language the day after) and said, yes, a mosque near Ground Zero is not only legal, but affirms our highest values that the terrorists tried and failed to destroy. And Americans, it's time to turn your wrath on the Palins and Gingriches and all those who would wrap themselves in the flag while mutilating all it stands for, who take our honored dead and cynically exploit them for their own tawdry political ends.

Altair for Senate!
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~~~Pyperlie<^>

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"Is no one inspired by our present picture of the universe? Our poets do not write about it; our artists do not try to portray this remarkable thing. The value of science remains unsung by singers: you are reduced to hearing not a song or poem, but an evening lecture about it. This is not yet a scientific age."
              -----Richard Feynman

I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night.
               ----Sarah Williams

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