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Author Topic: Earth vs Nature  (Read 18801 times)
SunflowerP
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« Reply #45: June 08, 2007, 07:21:04 am »

Perhaps they think the only way to get blood is for someone's brain to explode. Scanners anyone?
ROFLMAO!  That deserves some kind of prize!

Sunflower
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SunflowerP
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« Reply #46: June 08, 2007, 07:43:24 am »

Yes, I think they are. From those I've spoken with over the years, they honestly believe that if they get rid of all the "objectionable" parts of Wicca, the fundies will just leave them alone. All I've discussed this with have really been into "go along to get along" type behavior in general.
This is why I have such a bad reaction when the subject of congregations come up - my personal experience has been that "looking like a normal religion so we'll be acceptable" is a significant reason for 90% or more of the folks who yearn for a congregation/clergy model (and that there's a huge correlation between the "congregations look normal" contingent, and those who have hairy hysterical conniptions over blood magic, sex magic, the Great Rite, ritual nudity, skulls on altars, scourges, etc).

I know, from the thread on clergy, that it's not true of everyone, but I have a rubbed-raw spot regarding anything in that range of subject matter.

My religion, by mainstream standards, IS WEIRD.  That's because, by mainstream standards, I am weird.  Speaking of movie quotes, "One day I woke up and realized I was never going to be normal.  And I said, SO BE IT!"

Sunflower
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Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
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SunflowerP
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« Reply #47: June 08, 2007, 07:58:41 am »

Sorry for interrupting the thread, but these baby falcons are just so darn CUTE!!!
I don't think it's so off-topic.  It's a beautiful illustration of how one can be both "nature-based" and urban-Pagan-to-the-marrow.  Or, not nature-based, but deeply appreciative of such things.  Peregrine falcons on the skyscrapers and coyotes checking out inner-city-residential garbage cans ("I'm in ur citiez, eating ur miniature poodlez!") can be spiritually meaningful without necessarily making one either nature-based, or not nature-based.

(Uh-oh.  Coyote wants me to go play with the GIMP.  Yes, Dogface, but not right now.  If I get the desired result, I'll let TC know.)

Sunflower
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Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
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“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
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« Reply #48: June 08, 2007, 08:01:59 am »

Well, that is just a load of horsecrap.  I'm not about to strip my spiritualty to suit someone and even less likely to do it just to be 'safe'.  PC or not, it is what it is.
<insert a whole row of nodding emoticons here>

This is why I was so pleased to have a chance to get to know you.  What I'd heard suggested we'd be on the same page about things like this.

Sunflower
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Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
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“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ
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« Reply #49: June 08, 2007, 08:32:40 am »

(and that there's a huge correlation between the "congregations look normal" contingent, and those who have hairy hysterical conniptions over blood magic, sex magic, the Great Rite, ritual nudity, skulls on altars, scourges, etc).

I haven't noticed this -- but it has never been a correlation I've looked for either.
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SunflowerP
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« Reply #50: June 08, 2007, 01:41:58 pm »

I haven't noticed this -- but it has never been a correlation I've looked for either.
I have no idea if it's actually common, or if it's uncommon but I have uncommonly bad luck in crossing paths with it often.

Sunflower
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Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
I do so have a life.  I just live part of it online.
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ
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« Reply #51: June 08, 2007, 01:49:41 pm »

This is why I have such a bad reaction when the subject of congregations come up - my personal experience has been that "looking like a normal religion so we'll be acceptable" is a significant reason for 90% or more of the folks who yearn for a congregation/clergy model (and that there's a huge correlation between the "congregations look normal" contingent, and those who have hairy hysterical conniptions over blood magic, sex magic, the Great Rite, ritual nudity, skulls on altars, scourges, etc).

Are you saying that there's a correlation between people who want a congregation/clergy model as in what the Christian Churches have with buildings and chairs and once a week someone gets up and leads the flock in songs and delivers a sermon type of thing. Along with things like the Wiccan Home for Unwed Mothers and Wiccan Charity Bingo? As opposed to just people who seek standard covens or groves? If that's what you're talking about I'm definitely with you. These are also the people who want to unite everyone - join everyone together under a set of 57 principles of Goddess love.   

Quote
My religion, by mainstream standards, IS WEIRD.  That's because, by mainstream standards, I am weird. 

Yep - Couldn't agree more. Er... that came out wrong, I can't figure out a way to agree without it sounding like I'm calling you weird. What I mean is, to the "mainstream" almost all of us on this board have religions that are weird. Saying "I don't use blood or have any skulls" really doesn't make it any better. I used to live in the south and not having a Jesus fish on your car was weird.

I honestly don't know why people care so much about pleasing these people. I'm not one of these people that goes around saying "I don't care what anyone else thinks". I actually do care what a lot of people think. But I recognize that I'm not going to change anyone's mind on this and I've got no interest in changing my religion and editing certain parts out just so it's more palatable to those outside the religion.   

Melanie
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« Reply #52: June 08, 2007, 03:20:55 pm »

I honestly don't know why people care so much about pleasing these people. I'm not one of these people that goes around saying "I don't care what anyone else thinks". I actually do care what a lot of people think. But I recognize that I'm not going to change anyone's mind on this and I've got no interest in changing my religion and editing certain parts out just so it's more palatable to those outside the religion.

Something that gets routinely forgotten, I think, is that actually LIVING a Christian life (as opposed to slapping on the trappings and living for the money) is weird.  It's uncommon.  It's looked at a little sideways.

Of COURSE it's weird to be a fully-believing, fully-practicing member of a religion.  What religion it actually IS isn't going to matter as much to the weird-scale as the fact that you truly believe and practice!
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Darkhawk
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« Reply #53: June 08, 2007, 04:23:02 pm »

Something that gets routinely forgotten, I think, is that actually LIVING a Christian life (as opposed to slapping on the trappings and living for the money) is weird.  It's uncommon.  It's looked at a little sideways.

I once completely torpedoed a pity-poor-us-the-persecuted-pagans, we're-so-horribly-outnumbered-by-those-Chriiiiistians discussion that pointed out that yeah, I was raised Christian -- secular Christian.  We celebrated Bunny Candy Day and Santa Brings Pressies and had a little bit of cultural Christianity stuff thrown in around the edges, and that's it.  And that's my normal expectation of Christianity, or indeed any religion; that it's this secularised default in which personal piety, if it exists, is held very, very private.

And the concept that people who mark down "Christian" on census forms or in polls and who aren't devoutly intent on some version of the holy book just blew too many minds there.  This crowd was quite happy to talk about secular Jews and secular pagans, people with a particular set of cultural practices or beliefs that didn't translate into religious devotion, but All The Christians Were Bible-Thumping Lunatics And So Their Numbers Were A Personal Threat.

It was a really weird conversation.
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SunflowerP
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« Reply #54: June 08, 2007, 05:21:31 pm »

Are you saying that there's a correlation between people who want a congregation/clergy model as in what the Christian Churches have with buildings and chairs and once a week someone gets up and leads the flock in songs and delivers a sermon type of thing. Along with things like the Wiccan Home for Unwed Mothers and Wiccan Charity Bingo? As opposed to just people who seek standard covens or groves? If that's what you're talking about I'm definitely with you. These are also the people who want to unite everyone - join everyone together under a set of 57 principles of Goddess love.
Sorta.  I have to break this down a bit; there are contexts in which the congregational model is quite functional, and folks whose desire for them is both reasonable and reasoned (see the What Is Clergy? thread).

My only issues with the congregational model in a broader Pagan sense are 1) those who are fluffy about what "Pagan" means, 2) those who want it because it's more "normal", and 3) those who assume that because I'm a priestess, I must be qualified for, Called to, and aspire to minister to a congregation.  If they're like-minded enough to be a congregation, and the model is effective for their philosophy, and they're not mistaking me for a priestess of their persuasion, I wish them well.  If they're not, the only one that's really my business is #3 (except that I get agitated by Stupid People Tricks, so I'm likely to react to #1 and #2).

Where I get rant-inclined is when it comes up in context of Eclectic Wicca/religious Witchcraft (I can't speak for BTWiccans, but there are some commonalities).  What I have to say on this is lengthy, Wiccacentric, and very blunt, particularly if I'm talking about the intersection with sex/blood/death squeamishness (the correlation I was referring to); if you want to hear it, I think it'd be better to take it to PMs.  The short form is, yeah, I'm talking about people who identify as Wiccans or Witches, but who want congregations instead of covens.

Quote
Yep - Couldn't agree more. Er... that came out wrong, I can't figure out a way to agree without it sounding like I'm calling you weird.
I took you to mean that you were associating yourself with my weirdness.  Turning the "I's" into "we's".

Sunflower
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Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
I do so have a life.  I just live part of it online.
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ
SunflowerP
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« Reply #55: June 08, 2007, 05:52:06 pm »

We celebrated Bunny Candy Day and Santa Brings Pressies and had a little bit of cultural Christianity stuff thrown in around the edges, and that's it.  And that's my normal expectation of Christianity, or indeed any religion; that it's this secularised default in which personal piety, if it exists, is held very, very private.
Whereas I was raised in a very liberal denomination of Christianity, one that valued individual development of personal faith, and in an urban congregation at that; my expectation of normality is that personal piety is common and not necessarily concealed (but often quiet, and it's very rude to flaunt it), but is very individual - most people are believers of some kind or another, but how society functions is secular (it has to be, because there are so many different flavors of belief, not just denominations but individuals).  Since that very liberal denomination was also the largest Protestant denomination in Canada (it may still be, but a lot of people/congregations split when they brought in gay ordination almost 20 years back), my expectation was a fairly functional model for interacting with urban Canadian society.

I'm glad you expressed it the way you did, Darkhawk; Shadow's description was very much at odds with my experience, but I couldn't figure out how to put it into words.  Our expectations are very much shaped, often in ways we're not even conscious of, by our upbringing (which itself is a complex mix of family, denomination-if-any, local circumstances, broader culture, and umpteen other things); mileage varies drastically.

Quote
It was a really weird conversation.
Persecuted Pagan Pity Parties are really weird parties.

Sunflower
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Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
I do so have a life.  I just live part of it online.
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ
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« Reply #56: June 08, 2007, 07:08:21 pm »

<insert a whole row of nodding emoticons here>

This is why I was so pleased to have a chance to get to know you.  What I'd heard suggested we'd be on the same page about things like this.

Sunflower

::laugh::

You should have seen me in the day when I was roaming bitch of The Cauldron ....

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SunflowerP
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« Reply #57: June 09, 2007, 07:08:43 pm »

You should have seen me in the day when I was roaming bitch of The Cauldron ....
I wish I had.  Someday when I have lots of time and nothing more pressing to do with it (not a common occurrence), I oughta go archive-surfing and experience it a bit more directly.

I find outspoken opinionated people more comfortable to deal with than people who are neither, which makes me quite freakish (not to mention difficult, since I'm outspoken and opinionated myself) most places.  But not here, thank the gods.

Sunflower
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Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
I do so have a life.  I just live part of it online.
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ
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« Reply #58: June 09, 2007, 07:55:52 pm »

I find outspoken opinionated people more comfortable to deal with than people who are neither, which makes me quite freakish (not to mention difficult, since I'm outspoken and opinionated myself) most places.

So I probably make your skin crawl. Wink
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SunflowerP
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« Reply #59: June 10, 2007, 06:54:33 pm »

So I probably make your skin crawl. Wink
Only in a good way, so far!  Kiss

Around here, you're forthright enough.  I have gathered, from various things you've said, that you're pretty quiet in person, but as long as you're not one of those folks who won't talk about what they think, even when asked, for fear it'll be offensive, my skin is safe.  Quiet I can handle - I'd better, 'cause I have a taste for geeky types, who are often introverted.

Sunflower
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Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
I do so have a life.  I just live part of it online.
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ

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