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Author Topic: Human sacrifice  (Read 38163 times)
omoyemaya
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« Reply #195: March 31, 2011, 02:06:17 am »

As a solitary practitioner, I also fervently wish to appease my God, and have no difficulty whatsoever with the concept of offering human sacrifice any more than offering any other kind of sacrifice, but, like Ellen M., I find the whole idea of people actually taking it upon themselves to sacrifice a human life, or any life for that matter (including me sacrificing my own), to be repugnant and objectionable in the extreme, and impossible of completion.
So if your god asked you to bake an offering of bread, you would find the idea to be repugnant and objectionable in the extreme, and impossible of completion?
Or let's make it simpler, if you were sick with a cold or flu, and your god insisted on you taking your medicine to make you feel better, would you also find the action impossible of completion.
I'm really not tying to sound spiteful or targeting here, I'm just looking for a little clarification in your statement up there.
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« Reply #196: March 31, 2011, 02:21:36 am »

So if your god asked you to bake an offering of bread, you would find the idea to be repugnant and objectionable in the extreme, and impossible of completion?
Or let's make it simpler, if you were sick with a cold or flu, and your god insisted on you taking your medicine to make you feel better, would you also find the action impossible of completion.
I'm really not tying to sound spiteful or targeting here, I'm just looking for a little clarification in your statement up there.

I'm not Aemilius, but I'm not sure I understand your question.  I read Aemilieus's post to be specifically about the idea of human sacrifice, not about other kinds of offerings, like bread.

Could you clarify your question?

(I'm not being snarky -- I'm honestly asking for clarification.  Smiley )
 
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omoyemaya
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« Reply #197: March 31, 2011, 02:33:34 am »

I'm not Aemilius, but I'm not sure I understand your question.  I read Aemilieus's post to be specifically about the idea of human sacrifice, not about other kinds of offerings, like bread.

Could you clarify your question?

(I'm not being snarky -- I'm honestly asking for clarification.  Smiley )
 
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It's that Aemilius goes on to say "or any life for that matter". It's this notion of the sanctity of life that raises the question with me because I can't help but wonder where is the line drawn. I mean cancer cells are alive, and I really don't think that anyone here (especially considering the number of members who have cancer) would dare to speak out against the killing of cancer cells.

I can't help but be reminded of the other sacrifice thread and wonder if those who are so quick to say the place where I draw my line (which is completely legal) is so immoral and wrong when I'm quite sure that with at least one of their offerings, they had to kill something.
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Aemilius
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« Reply #198: March 31, 2011, 02:37:16 am »

I'm not Aemilius, but I'm not sure I understand your question.  I read Aemilieus's post to be specifically about the idea of human sacrifice, not about other kinds of offerings, like bread.

Could you clarify your question?

(I'm not being snarky -- I'm honestly asking for clarification.  Smiley )
 
~ Aster

I am not sure how to respond, yes, I agree with Aster, clarification would be helpful.

Emile
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« Reply #199: March 31, 2011, 03:27:05 am »

It's that Aemilius goes on to say "or any life for that matter". It's this notion of the sanctity of life that raises the question with me because I can't help but wonder where is the line drawn. I mean cancer cells are alive, and I really don't think that anyone here (especially considering the number of members who have cancer) would dare to speak out against the killing of cancer cells.

I can't help but be reminded of the other sacrifice thread and wonder if those who are so quick to say the place where I draw my line (which is completely legal) is so immoral and wrong when I'm quite sure that with at least one of their offerings, they had to kill something.

I think I see where you are going, "any life" was meant to describe people, and sentient beings, generally (considered by me to include mammals, reptiles, birds, fish, etc.), which I thought, perhaps mistakenly, was the topic. In addition, I never said anything about morality, legality or where anyone is drawing lines, nor did I condemn any practice. I only stated my beliefs, which you are free to disagree with, as I am free to disagree with yours. I see the taking of (sentient) life as both repugnant and objectionable, in the context of ritualistic sacrifice or ceremony, it is just my opinion. It is the code I live by, and, I am acutely aware that there are many different codes by which people live. Of course, if you would like to solicit cancer patients for the purpose of harvesting cancer cells for sacrifice, I do not think I would object to that.

Emile
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omoyemaya
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« Reply #200: March 31, 2011, 03:36:06 am »

I think I see where you are going, "any life" was meant to describe people, and sentient beings, generally (considered by me to include mammals, reptiles, birds, fish, etc.), which I thought, perhaps mistakenly, was the topic. In addition, I never said anything about morality, legality or where anyone is drawing lines, nor did I condemn any practice. I only stated my beliefs, which you are free to disagree with, as I am free to disagree with yours. I see the taking of (sentient) life as both repugnant and objectionable, in the context of ritualistic sacrifice or ceremony, it is just my opinion. It is the code I live by, and, I am acutely aware that there are many different codes by which people live. Of course, if you would like to solicit cancer patients for the purpose of harvesting cancer cells for sacrifice, I do not think I would object to that.

Emile
Yes, glad you clarified that term, although i think you and i would end up disagreeing on what is considered sentient beings.

And as for the other issues i mentioned (legality, morality, etc.) I wasn't bringing them up in reference to you. There is another similar thread on the forum on human and animal sacrifice and another member there was making statements that was bringing these particular issues into contention with me. I'll leave that matter over there though, unless someone else wanted to bring it up here instead.

Thanks again for responding.
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« Reply #201: March 31, 2011, 03:45:16 am »

Yes, glad you clarified that term, although i think you and i would end up disagreeing on what is considered sentient beings.

And as for the other issues i mentioned (legality, morality, etc.) I wasn't bringing them up in reference to you. There is another similar thread on the forum on human and animal sacrifice and another member there was making statements that was bringing these particular issues into contention with me. I'll leave that matter over there though, unless someone else wanted to bring it up here instead.

Thanks again for responding.

Lets not leave it there, why not go on to describe precisely what you consider to be sentient life? Perhaps we will agree! I have described my practices, so, why not describe yours? Understanding may be fostered from such an exchange, if your game.

Emile
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« Reply #202: March 31, 2011, 06:25:37 am »

Lets not leave it there, why not go on to describe precisely what you consider to be sentient life? Perhaps we will agree! I have described my practices, so, why not describe yours? Understanding may be fostered from such an exchange, if your game.

Emile

I've always understood sentient life to be self-aware life. How and where that applies to animal life may be somewhat subjective.
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« Reply #203: March 31, 2011, 07:18:16 am »

« Last Edit: Today at 12:35:16 am by Aemilius »

Emile,

Just a quick note...  This edit occurred after Mel had replied to your post.  You aren't in trouble this time for it because in comparing your edited version to the original quoted by Mel, I can't see that you changed anything major.  That tells me that you were probably just correcting a typo or something similarly minor, which is fine. 

A reminder, though:  If you do that, especially if the post has been replied to, you need to use the Reason For Edit box (or even just add a note to the end of your post) letting us all know why you edited.  That way we all know you haven't gone and changed the conversation on us after the fact (which would be a major violation of forum rules).  Smiley

Thanks!

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« Reply #204: March 31, 2011, 09:24:34 am »

If you are following a path that has a historical connection to ritual human sacrifice (whether proven or simply probable) - how do you see that in the modern world? Do you enact some sort of symbolic sacrifices (like burning a poppet) to serve a similar purpose in your worship? Or do you feel that it was something entirely for another culture in another time, and not something that is significant to your path?

Just found this post.

In the old nordic regions human sacrifice did happen, it was not overly common but more often then not on the battlefield the killing of an enemy was considered sacrificing that person to the gods aswell (usualy to Odin) "Odin take you". Though sometimes also in a ceremonial fassion.

However i consider this a relic of the past, and more so a cultural thing then a religious thing. So i do sacrifice but never a human like idol or anything like that (often it's either things i created, or a liquir of some sorts). Some things / habbits are simply best left in the past.

So to answer the question. "do you feel that it was something entirely for another culture in another time, and not something that is significant to your path?" Exacly so. It's a thing of the past of a lost culture. And it does not influence my path to the slightest.

There's my 2 cents.

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Aemilius
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« Reply #205: March 31, 2011, 09:28:04 am »

Emile,

Just a quick note...  This edit occurred after Mel had replied to your post.  You aren't in trouble this time for it because in comparing your edited version to the original quoted by Mel, I can't see that you changed anything major.  That tells me that you were probably just correcting a typo or something similarly minor, which is fine. 

A reminder, though:  If you do that, especially if the post has been replied to, you need to use the Reason For Edit box (or even just add a note to the end of your post) letting us all know why you edited.  That way we all know you haven't gone and changed the conversation on us after the fact (which would be a major violation of forum rules).  Smiley

Thanks!

Star
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Acknowledged, and thank you.
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omoyemaya
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« Reply #206: March 31, 2011, 10:12:01 am »

Lets not leave it there, why not go on to describe precisely what you consider to be sentient life? Perhaps we will agree! I have described my practices, so, why not describe yours? Understanding may be fostered from such an exchange, if your game.

Emile
Santeria is pretty animistic. And my current Boricua path is incredibly animistic, so everything is sentient to me. Those that seem less sentient are actually considered more sentient. Therefore, the process of consumption and the transfer and movement of ashe becomes very important. I recommend you read my post here for more info:
http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=15809.msg263466#msg263466
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« Reply #207: March 31, 2011, 01:22:21 pm »

Santeria is pretty animistic. And my current Boricua path is incredibly animistic, so everything is sentient to me. Those that seem less sentient are actually considered more sentient. Therefore, the process of consumption and the transfer and movement of ashe becomes very important. I recommend you read my post here for more info:
http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=15809.msg263466#msg263466

Thank you very much, I will read it. Emile
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« Reply #208: March 31, 2011, 03:46:17 pm »

Thank you very much, I will read it. Emile

Hello omoyemaya,

And so I did. I also found this to be a somewhat more detailed description than your helpful post, and very informative regarding the nature, origin, and practice of your religion. In the formulation an opinion, would you say that it is an accurrate overview?

http://www.mojomoon.net/santeria.html - history

Emile
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 04:01:36 pm by Aemilius, Reason: Edited to add name of intended recipient and remove unnecessary links. » Logged
omoyemaya
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« Reply #209: March 31, 2011, 06:09:50 pm »

Hello omoyemaya,

And so I did. I also found this to be a somewhat more detailed description than your helpful post, and very informative regarding the nature, origin, and practice of your religion. In the formulation an opinion, would you say that it is an accurrate overview?

http://www.mojomoon.net/santeria.html - history

Emile

I'll say there is alot of good information there. I'll also say that I noticed the note at the bottom that most of this article is from Migene Gonzales-Wippler, and while her works have been invaluable for a lot of people just learning or learning anew about Santeria and its sister paths, her stuff has a tendency to be highly anecdotal and emotionally swayed by her anecdotes she's also really all over the map when it comes to her own spirituality and a lot of the stuff she talks about at times does sound pretty made up I would say that parts of that article to sound like the info was kind of generalized... but hey, what can you expect with a web article. It's still a good info source.
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