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Author Topic: Human sacrifice  (Read 38162 times)
Aemilius
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« Reply #210: April 01, 2011, 06:21:40 pm »

I'll say there is alot of good information there. I'll also say that I noticed the note at the bottom that most of this article is from Migene Gonzales-Wippler, and while her works have been invaluable for a lot of people just learning or learning anew about Santeria and its sister paths, her stuff has a tendency to be highly anecdotal and emotionally swayed by her anecdotes she's also really all over the map when it comes to her own spirituality and a lot of the stuff she talks about at times does sound pretty made up I would say that parts of that article to sound like the info was kind of generalized... but hey, what can you expect with a web article. It's still a good info source.

Hello omoyemaya,

Oddly enough, there are at least a couple of things that we can and do agree upon, namely, the existence of one all powerful God. To me, this is perceived as a nameless, formless sentient force underlying all of creation, which I address directly (the idea of the existence of patron saints or intermediate, inferior or secondary gods is not entertained), apparently known to you as Oloddumare. Sentience, the one thing you mention as being something we are not likely to agree upon, is actually something we very much do agree upon, if I have understood you correctly. As Asch wrote “I've always understood sentient life to be self-aware life. How and where that applies to animal life may be somewhat subjective.” I cannot help but agree with that assessment from a humanistic point of view, but I must say that, having observed the admittedly enormous complexity of life, and of the cosmos in general, logic dictates (to me) that some underlying sentient force, or intelligence (my God) suffuses it, and must be behind it all, permeating every aspect of it, including both animate and inanimate matter, and even the vacuum of outer space. Santeria would also seem to share with the Druid path a lack of much written or archaeological supporting, or precedent setting evidence as to the actual practices of it’s adherents prior to being corrupted by Catholic influences (please correct me if I am wrong). Aside from that, many aspects of the whole elaborate construct of Santeria seem both alien and untenable (to me). I have always tried to use logic as an element in the decision making process, or the formulation of any opinion, and all aspects of my belief system as a (solitary) Druid are at least loosely based on that predilection, so the idea of submitting in any way to an intermediate “representative” of my god that, for instance, prefers cigars but not red wine, with no reliable elucidation, or easily discernable reason or explanation of it’s mechanism of operation, instantly becomes an impossible proposition. Another example of this might be, say, the setting up of an alter with a statue of a Catholic saint in the place of an Orisha, which, if it is no longer necessary to disguise ones beliefs, strikes me as being insulting to the Orisha. Can you help me to understand the reasoning behind such things as I have mentioned, or is it simply a matter of “blind faith”? I am open to your response to my opinion, and any questions you may have about my “path”, and please, do not be offended. I have been told more than once now that I have a rather irritating and intolerant manor, and style of writing. Prior to going on line though (about a year ago now), I had not written so much as a post card for over a quarter of a century, so, I am working on my writing skills (or lack of them).

Strength to you, omoyemaya, and wishing you well.

Emile                

« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 06:27:31 pm by Aemilius, Reason: Grammar correction. » Logged

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« Reply #211: April 01, 2011, 06:44:29 pm »




Aemilius,

Could you please put some white space into your posts?  Such long blocks of text are very difficult for some of us to read.  If your post does not divide well into paragraphs you can just hit return every few lines, just to break things up.

Thanks,
Marilyn, Board Staff
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"There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure."
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Blessed are the cracked, for it is they who let in the light.

Ring the bells that still can ring
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That's how the light gets in

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Aemilius
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« Reply #212: April 01, 2011, 07:35:48 pm »

Aemilius,

Could you please put some white space into your posts?  Such long blocks of text are very difficult for some of us to read.  If your post does not divide well into paragraphs you can just hit return every few lines, just to break things up.

Thanks,
Marilyn, Board Staff

Acknowledged. Why is your post titled "ABSENTMINDED"? Has this been mentioned to me before?

Never mind, I did not realize that was part of your "screen name".

Emile
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 07:45:10 pm by Aemilius, Reason: Additoinal text added, correction made. » Logged
omoyemaya
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« Reply #213: April 02, 2011, 10:07:42 am »

Hello omoyemaya,

Oddly enough, there are at least a couple of things that we can and do agree upon, namely, the existence of one all powerful God. To me, this is perceived as a nameless, formless sentient force underlying all of creation, which I address directly (the idea of the existence of patron saints or intermediate, inferior or secondary gods is not entertained), apparently known to you as Oloddumare. Sentience, the one thing you mention as being something we are not likely to agree upon, is actually something we very much do agree upon, if I have understood you correctly. As Asch wrote “I've always understood sentient life to be self-aware life. How and where that applies to animal life may be somewhat subjective.” I cannot help but agree with that assessment from a humanistic point of view, but I must say that, having observed the admittedly enormous complexity of life, and of the cosmos in general, logic dictates (to me) that some underlying sentient force, or intelligence (my God) suffuses it, and must be behind it all, permeating every aspect of it, including both animate and inanimate matter, and even the vacuum of outer space. Santeria would also seem to share with the Druid path a lack of much written or archaeological supporting, or precedent setting evidence as to the actual practices of it’s adherents prior to being corrupted by Catholic influences (please correct me if I am wrong). Aside from that, many aspects of the whole elaborate construct of Santeria seem both alien and untenable (to me). I have always tried to use logic as an element in the decision making process, or the formulation of any opinion, and all aspects of my belief system as a (solitary) Druid are at least loosely based on that predilection, so the idea of submitting in any way to an intermediate “representative” of my god that, for instance, prefers cigars but not red wine, with no reliable elucidation, or easily discernable reason or explanation of it’s mechanism of operation, instantly becomes an impossible proposition. Another example of this might be, say, the setting up of an alter with a statue of a Catholic saint in the place of an Orisha, which, if it is no longer necessary to disguise ones beliefs, strikes me as being insulting to the Orisha. Can you help me to understand the reasoning behind such things as I have mentioned, or is it simply a matter of “blind faith”? I am open to your response to my opinion, and any questions you may have about my “path”, and please, do not be offended. I have been told more than once now that I have a rather irritating and intolerant manor, and style of writing. Prior to going on line though (about a year ago now), I had not written so much as a post card for over a quarter of a century, so, I am working on my writing skills (or lack of them).

Strength to you, omoyemaya, and wishing you well.

Emile                


The main reason for this, i believe, being that most Santeros are not African natives and culturally, we tend to still be very Christian and for the most part Catholic. If we or our orishas wanted to to follow a purely African system or African recon, then we'd follow the Yoruba tradition, which does exist, is very much alive, and a number of Santeros do end up opting for that system later. Santeria is inherently non-recon. A great number of the Spaniard slave owners ended up joining with their slaves in this new system because of how much it appealed to them.

You also have to consider the trauma of the Atlantic Slave trade and how that permanently affects a cultural system (which is what most ADRs are really rather than just a religious system). Oya worship increased dramatically because of the expansion of her myth during that particular slave trade (as I'm sure you know, the African slave trade never ended). As the orisha of wind she saw that the culture of her people faced a permanent erasure from the pages of history, so she became a wind of change and directed her people to adapt and change. It was she who told us to look to these white saints and see the faces of our ancestors in them (which was actually very easy considering the striking resemblance in symbolism). And then there are cases like the orisha Ochosi who as a result of the slave trade, his worship was completely wiped out in Africa. If it wasn't for his Catholic syncretization, he would have completely vanished. And unlike other pantheons, the orishas are too closely tied to their people to simply carry on without them.

OK, I hope this better clarifies what you were wondering about.
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Aemilius
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« Reply #214: April 03, 2011, 01:01:21 am »

The main reason for this, i believe, being that most Santeros are not African natives and culturally, we tend to still be very Christian and for the most part Catholic. If we or our orishas wanted to to follow a purely African system or African recon, then we'd follow the Yoruba tradition, which does exist, is very much alive, and a number of Santeros do end up opting for that system later. Santeria is inherently non-recon. A great number of the Spaniard slave owners ended up joining with their slaves in this new system because of how much it appealed to them.

You also have to consider the trauma of the Atlantic Slave trade and how that permanently affects a cultural system (which is what most ADRs are really rather than just a religious system). Oya worship increased dramatically because of the expansion of her myth during that particular slave trade (as I'm sure you know, the African slave trade never ended). As the orisha of wind she saw that the culture of her people faced a permanent erasure from the pages of history, so she became a wind of change and directed her people to adapt and change. It was she who told us to look to these white saints and see the faces of our ancestors in them (which was actually very easy considering the striking resemblance in symbolism). And then there are cases like the orisha Ochosi who as a result of the slave trade, his worship was completely wiped out in Africa. If it wasn't for his Catholic syncretization, he would have completely vanished. And unlike other pantheons, the orishas are too closely tied to their people to simply carry on without them.

OK, I hope this better clarifies what you were wondering about.

Thank you, it does! Emile
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