Plug N Play, the Deity Way

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

Or donate directly via Paypal

This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.

[SleepyRedGirl]

Hopefully, this is an appropriate forum for the topic. Never quite know where to drop stuff in here.

Something that is guaranteed to get on my nerves is what I like to call the 'Plug N Play' approach to deity. I see it most often in 101-level Neo-Wiccan books and it always provokes a facial twitch that can be embarrassing if seen by others. Off the top of my head, an example is:

'1. Light a yellow candle and call upon Sophia, embodiment of holy wisdom, to guide you.'
From Judy Ann Nock's A Witch's Grimoire, pg 18

While this may be a condemnation of my own mythological knowledge, my first thought is 'Who the hell is Sophia?'. This is her first mention in the book, and that is the extent of her introduction. From where does she hail? What is her story? She could be as benign as floating dandelion seeds, or as cold as a snowstorm. If you really want a deity involved in your work, surely you'd like a greater connection than a perfunctory 'Oi, Sophia? Can I borrow you?'

Perhaps it's a wholly personal hang up: I don't like to mention deities in meditation/magical work because I believe that they are entities in their own right and I don't know them. It doesn't particularly smack of arrogance to be advised to 'invoke' deities from pantheons far and wide for sundry purposes, rather ignorance.

Is it, do you think, more useful to think of this 'relationship' as a legitimate way of reinforcing faith and will in the witch/magician/pickaname? Looking at it from a magical POV, rather than a religious or spiritual POV, does the potential power of the name and belief outweigh any risk of offending the deity named? I'm following Robin Skelton's ideas as given in chapter 1 of Spellcraft:

'The spell-maker asserts that he has power, though it may be through the Name of some greater power ... the spell-maker speaks to whatever he believes and deeply feels to be the ultimate source of his power'

I doubt that knowing that Sophia is the 'embodiment of holy wisdom' really translates to the deep feeling that Skelton refers to, but if the spellcaster does feel subconsciously that saying the name helps does it validate/justify what could be seen as an ignorant act?

Care to share opinions?

[RandallS]

Care to share opinions?

I think a lot of this depends on whether one is talking about religion or magic -- these many not have been as separate in ancient times (or in some parts of the world today), but they are generally separate in the West today.

=Calling on random deities you know little or nothing about is certainly a bad idea in a religious sense. However, in some (non-religious/religion neutral) magic systems, deity names are really just "words of power" associated with certain things (like Sophia and wisdom). If you magic is religion based you are going to have a different answer to whether or not what you describe makes sense than if the magic is not particularly religion-based.

[SleepyRedGirl]

I thought as much, and though I didn't make it explicit in the opening post: I find it difficult to separate my personal practice from my religious stance. That is the root of my discomfort with the idea.

While it may sound like it an redundant thing to ponder, I wonder if any non-religious magic workers see any problem with Neo-Wiccans using the Plug N Play approach? Or perhaps any Neo-Wiccans who see it in a different way?

(I'm going to call it the Plug N Play approach as a shorthand, otherwise I feel compelled to re-outline ad nauseam.)

[gorm_sionnach]

I thought as much, and though I didn't make it explicit in the opening post: I find it difficult to separate my personal practice from my religious stance. That is the root of my discomfort with the idea.

While it may sound like it an redundant thing to ponder, I wonder if any non-religious magic workers see any problem with Neo-Wiccans using the Plug N Play approach? Or perhaps any Neo-Wiccans who see it in a different way?

(I'm going to call it the Plug N Play approach as a shorthand, otherwise I feel compelled to re-outline ad nauseam.)

I came across this thread and thought of this video. I certainly do understand why some people would find such an approach problematic, if not denigrating to deities.

[Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)]

I wonder if any non-religious magic workers see any problem with Neo-Wiccans using the Plug N Play approach?

I don't have any particular problem with it.  In my view, gods are specialists.  As long as the request is respectful and an offering of some sort is made, it would seem to me pretty much like calling a mechanic out of the phone book.

You're not that mechanic's friend or family, you don't hang out with him at the ballpark, but your car needs fixed and you've heard he's good (and, for a price, willing).  It's not the same relationship he has with his friends and family, but it doesn't take anything away from that personal relationship either.

If a god has a particular specialty I would imagine he/she likes to exercise it.  It might be boring just to exercise it on behalf of his loved ones - for one thing, he probably keeps their cars up to snuff automatically anyway.  It could be insulting if you tried to get the family discount, or acted all buddy-buddy.  A respectful request, and a payment in whatever form such things are paid for (flowers, fruit, candles, music) doesn't seem like a big insult to me.

I keep magic and religion separate out of personal preference, but it doesn't bother me if other people call on my gods on a transactional basis.  I might laugh if the request seems wildly out of character for the deity in question, but I wouldn't consider the basic idea wrong or insulting.

Absent

[SleepyRedGirl]

Sorry to ask, but my connection doesn't permit me to view video... Can you summarise?

[gorm_sionnach]

Sorry to ask, but my connection doesn't permit me to view video... Can you summarise?

The title of the video is "the gods are not pokemon".

The author's description of the video is as follows:

So stop treating them like Pokemon.

Gods and goddesses are rich individuals with deep histories and quirks and oddities just like us human folk.

I've always had a problem with Pokemon being like Poorly Disguised Cock-Fighting For Kids. While a relationship element is there with a few trainers and their Pokemon, it is definitely more about being the best battler and a Pokemon Master... or, translated in terms of the neopagan community, a proficient Witch.

I think a true pagan, neopagan, reconstructionist, etc. is a person who enters into a relationship of reciprocity and humility before the gods and treats them with great respect. The intent is to not use them for a spell or a desperate prayer, but to engage them in a long-term relationship, starting little by little, not jumping right into it headlong for one's own selfish purposes.

[Ellen M.]

The title of the video is "the gods are not pokemon".

The author's description of the video is as follows:

I always raise an eyebrow whenever I hear someone talking about what a "true" pagan/neo-pagan/or other does. If you're a soft polytheist or pantheist and believe, in your heart, that all gods are reflections of a greater whole, then it's not disrespectful of you to call on a facet of your god/dess you've never worked with before, so long as you're polite. Heck, for myself as a hard polytheist, I have no problem reaching out to deities I have no relationship with, so long as I'm treating them with respect and being open to what they have to say to me in return. (F'ex, I've got a trio of deities whom I only call on when I'm driving and faced with a dangerous or frightening situation. I'm nice about it, and they don't seem to mind that they're not in the rest of my life.)

No, I don't like the idea of deity work being approached in a flippant or uncaring manner, but my perceptions of the gods are not Joe Wiccan's perception of the gods. If what they're doing makes sense to them, and if they're not getting zapped by holy lightning, my place is to keep my mouth quiet.

[gorm_sionnach]

I always raise an eyebrow whenever I hear someone talking about what a "true" pagan/neo-pagan/or other does. If you're a soft polytheist or pantheist and believe, in your heart, that all gods are reflections of a greater whole, then it's not disrespectful of you to call on a facet of your god/dess you've never worked with before, so long as you're polite. Heck, for myself as a hard polytheist, I have no problem reaching out to deities I have no relationship with, so long as I'm treating them with respect and being open to what they have to say to me in return. (F'ex, I've got a trio of deities whom I only call on when I'm driving and faced with a dangerous or frightening situation. I'm nice about it, and they don't seem to mind that they're not in the rest of my life.)

No, I don't like the idea of deity work being approached in a flippant or uncaring manner, but my perceptions of the gods are not Joe Wiccan's perception of the gods. If what they're doing makes sense to them, and if they're not getting zapped by holy lightning, my place is to keep my mouth quiet.

Certainly speaking about what is True™ when it comes to trying to describe paganism is difficult, if not impossible. I suppose respect and reciprocity are what count.

[SleepyRedGirl]

I don't have any particular problem with it.  In my view, gods are specialists.  As long as the request is respectful and an offering of some sort is made, it would seem to me pretty much like calling a mechanic out of the phone book.

I see what you mean, and in the cases that provoke the most noticeable facial tics, I don't even see a ghost of a transaction. The meat and bones of the action really does seem to be 'Say the name, and the deity will bless and enhance your work'. Perhaps from a purely magical approach, saying the name really will suffice. But if the magical practice is interwoven with religion, I feel that saying the name is inept. All well and good for the lit candle, but in the above example in particular there is no emphasis on directed will or gift requiring gain. If you want to be making magic in conjunction with a religious path, a technique of 'Bid it and they will come' seems a very poor method of working with deity.

Thanks for that.
I agree with the spirit, personally. I like to think that effort has the greatest reward, and sloths grow only moss. Thus I can't help but feel that name-dropping as part of a spell is powerless. A transactional contact with deity is preferable to a ritual equivalent of 'Look whose name I know'.

Thanks for your input - every time I click to preview the post I get someone new to respond to. Ace!

I suppose I run closer to a hard polytheist view, and it's good to be reminded of different polytheist views. Considering the name to call an archetype/virtue rather than a separate entity does alter the usage, I admit.

[SatAset]

Something that is guaranteed to get on my nerves is what I like to call the 'Plug N Play' approach to deity. I see it most often in 101-level Neo-Wiccan books and it always provokes a facial twitch that can be embarrassing if seen by others. Off the top of my head, an example is:

Your post brought this to my mind:  http://www.accendi.net/putf/archives/?strip=002

I don't mind if anyone calls on a deity for a relationship or spellwork as long as they do their research on that deity and how they are honored.  I would also prefer it if it was an ongoing relationship rather than a new deity is called for each spell cast (unless there is a specific reason for doing so).  

[SleepyRedGirl]

Your post brought this to my mind:  http://www.accendi.net/putf/archives/?strip=002

Snort. Another occasional problem with Plug N Play - you might end up calling in a electrician when what you have is a blocked toilet.

Indeed, if simply saying the names isn't an impotent invocation after all, what do you do once you have scheduled Kwan Yin and Tyr (generated off the top of my head, better illustrations are welcomed with open arms!) to dance together?

[Jenett]

Is it, do you think, more useful to think of this 'relationship' as a legitimate way of reinforcing faith and will in the witch/magician/pickaname? Looking at it from a magical POV, rather than a religious or spiritual POV, does the potential power of the name and belief outweigh any risk of offending the deity named?

In general, I vastly prefer *some* form of relationship. There are deity relationships in my life that are extremely long-term, and there are occasionally times when I go to someone for their speciality. I view that mostly the way I view relationships with people: some are long-term very complex relationships, and sometimes I go and ask someone with a speciality for help with something.

That doesn't mean 'just plug the name in' - I still think research is appropriate. For example, if I'm seeing a health specialist, I would still want to do some research on who they are, what their particular interests are, how to approach them. (I'm going to want to frame things one way if they're native Minnesotan, where comments about how big a problem is tend to be a bit understated even in medical crisis, than if it's someone from a more East Coast blunt kind of background, for example.)

I also expect those 'working' relationships to be a lot more direct exchange: they do X for me, I do Y for them, where Y is something they particularly want to have happen. Some deities, this is pretty easy - sharing part of what I've gotten from them, a relatively simple offering, whatever. Sometimes it's more complicated. With deities I have a long-standing relationship with, it's a lot more open-ended - sort of like a good friend where you pick up the cost of each other's meals when needed, but don't actually keep a close count on who owes who what.

Now, all of that said, I do think there are more things out there than deities. Some paths look at Sophia not as a deity, but as an emodiement in human form of a particular ideal. In other words, she's *just* about a particular kind of wisdom: she doesn't have the other interests, intertwined interactions, quirks, and so on that someone human would (and as many deities do). Think of it like the difference between a human being and a really high end artificial intelligence with a very specific focused goal. (Sophia's really complicated because the same name is used in different ways - sometimes something I'd consider much closer to a deity, sometimes something that's very single-focused embodiment) Some people feel the Guardians of the quarters are similar: they have a certain amount of free will and general interaction, but they are All About That Element, and not much else.

I do think that how we interact with these embodiments - whether they're a communal one, like Sophia in those paths, or whether they're a fetch for a particular working - goes better with some politeness and etiquette. But it's not quite the same thing as a deity, either, and that calling on the Name, when the Name is willing to do that work, is often enough.

[SunflowerP]

You're not that mechanic's friend or family, you don't hang out with him at the ballpark, but your car needs fixed and you've heard he's good (and, for a price, willing).  It's not the same relationship he has with his friends and family, but it doesn't take anything away from that personal relationship either.

And, if you're satisfied with the mechanic's work (and haven't done anything that'd cause him to tell you to take your business elsewhere), you'll likely continue to bring your car to him, and when it's time for another, he'll be the one you go to for a professional opinion on any car you're considering buying, and so on.  That, too, is a relationship, and can be quite close even though it's a business relationship rather than a personal one.

This is the thing that has always made me itch about rants against plug'n'play (I've been using that term for years, too, SRG).  For the most part, they're addressing attitudes and approaches I have a low opinion of myself.  But they're often too broad and sweeping, and elide too much - they usually acknowledge only two postions, that of the practitioner who has a close and intimate relationship with hir deity/ies, and that of the plug'n'player.  The reality is that not all relationships with deities are close and intimate, and any relationship, whatever sort it turns out to be, has to start small and develop from there.

As I type, my LED candle is lit beside me; it's my shift with the Cauldron Cill, keeping Brigid's flame - that's part of the close relationship I have with her now.  But nearly 20 years ago, the relationship began simply because I couldn't see plug'n'playing any other goddess on her namesake sabbat - so I plugged her into that invocation slot once a year because it seemed the lesser of two rudenesses.

Sunflower

[Jenett]

The reality is that not all relationships with deities are close and intimate, and any relationship, whatever sort it turns out to be, has to start small and develop from there.

Ah! You made connections go off in my head.

I am a librarian. (And please, Gods, it'd be nice for someone else to pay me for being one sometime soon.)

Librarians like to help people. They get their kicks from helping people. And they get their kicks from helping people in a very specific way - one that's both very intimate and very impersonal all at once. It's quite common to see people once, answer a question for them, and never really know how it turns out. (Unlike most other helping professions, where you at least have some idea what's up. I think the closest thing is police dispatchers or paramedics: you do important stuff, but you never really know the outcome.)

Sometimes those questions are really run-of-the mill professional things: here's where that book is, we can get that for you from interlibrary loan, here's how to use the catalog.Basic transactional exchange: a little more water-of-knowledge in the world, a little less entropy and ignorance. Doing it well is important, because it makes the world brighter, but we're all realistic here, and know that most of those questions aren't going to rock anyone's world. Just make it a little easier.

Every so often, though, you get a little extra lucky. You get asked a question, and you ask something back, and all of a sudden, you get this amazing conversation, or you find out that what you're helping with really is a Huge Deal for the person you're helping, and is going to have this wide ripple effect in their world and the worlds of the people who touch them. And that .. well, that makes your week. Maybe your month. (The Feel Good Librarian blog at http://feelgoodlibrarian.typepad.com/ has great stories of this kind.) You don't know the outcome, but you can see the stone drop in the pool, and the ripples start swirling out.

I think that some deities are like librarians. They don't mind the general, routine questions: "Hi, I'm sick, can you make me feel better." "Hi, I'd like to have a baby, and you're a fertility deity, can you help?", "Hi, can you make sure this airplane does all the stuff it's supposed to while I'm flying to New Zealand?" There's nothing wrong with those questions, and if you're a deity generally interested in helping sick people, or having there be more new life in the world, or travel, you're likely to go "Oh, yes, sure" and do your bit, because you like doing it, you like having a world that works a bit more smoothly in those areas.

But every so often, someone's going to come along with a *challenge*. And you know that if you leave your door open, and are reasonably accessible, and all that other stuff, they might come to you, and you'll get that amazing, exciting new thing that you get to play with and turn around in your hands, and explore, and learn all about, and it's the best present ever. [1]

So.. you're open. You don't turn the basic standard requests away, 'cause some of them come back later with the really good stuff. You don't put up with outright rudeness and nastiness (because, well, why would you if you didn't have to?) But you're pretty tolerant about what 'making an effort to be polite' looks like: you don't insist on just that one incense, just that one offering, just that one form of petition.

It's good there are deities who don't work like that, too, just like it's good that there are people like that. (Interrupt driven work has a lot of benefits, but also its flaws: it's very hard to do detail-focused extended work: the equivalent of really great writing or computer programming or major surgery when someone is asking you a question at unpredictable intervals.)

But there're still the deities out there who just plain Like Answering Some Particular Stuff. And those deities - the ones who look for the people connected to the subject of the question, not to the person they're asking it of  - are, I think, a little more open to that "Hey, here's a deity name." At least if the person on the other end is even vaguely trying to be of good intention.

[1] The word I'm aiming for here is the Greek kosmos: the original use has a denotation that was something like "That really big spiffy best geeky toy ever that we can look at from all sides and examine like the most brillantly faceted jewel, a model of order and connections and interconnections that meet and dance in all sorts of amazing ways." Huge and all-encompassing, but yet something where you can look at it and see the order and interconnection of the parts, all at once.

[Tags:]

Jump to: Please select a destination: ----------------------------- About The Cauldron ----------------------------- => Rules and Regulations => Cauldron Announcements ===> Volunteers Needed: Site Assistants and Projects => Introductions => Board Questions, Suggestions, and Feedback => Chat and CauldronMUX Support => Test Board ----------------------------- Religion and Philosophy ----------------------------- => Paganism For Beginners => Books and Other Resources => Pagan Religions => Pagan Spirituality => Gods, Goddesses, and Mythology => Worship and Ritual => Holidays and Festivals => History and Religion => Faith in Everyday Life => Philosophy and Metaphysics => Non-Pagan Religions and Interfaith Discussions => Miscellaneous Religious Discussions ----------------------------- Magic and the Occult ----------------------------- => Magic and the Occult for Beginners => Witchcraft, Hoodoo, and Folk Magic => The Western Magical Tradition => Chaos Magic => Lodges and Other Magic Organizations => Miscellaneous Magical Discussions ----------------------------- Special Interest Groups & Special Discussions ----------------------------- => Special Topic Discussions => Chavi Memorial Chronic Illness SIG => General SIGS ===> College Pagans SIG ===> Cooking SIG ===> Divination SIG ===> Home and Garden SIG ===> Pagan Parents SIG ===> Teen Pagans SIG => Religious SIGS ===> Asatru and Heathenry SIG ===> Cauldron Cill ===> FlameKeeping SIG ===> Hazel and Oak: A Celtic Polytheism SIG ===> Neo-Druidry SIG ===> Reformed Kemeticism SIG ===> Ta Hiera Hellenic Polytheism SIG => Book/Media Discussion Boards ===> Academic Book Discussions ===> Pagan Religion Book Discussions ===> Magick Book Discussions ===> Fiction Book Discussions ===> DVD/Video Discussions ----------------------------- Life, the Universe, and Everything Else ----------------------------- => Pagan Announcements => Prayer and Energy Requests => News and Politics ===> Religious News ===> Non-Religious News ===> Political Discussions => Social Discussion Boards ===> Art, Poetry and Writing ===> Books ===> Computers and the Internet ===> Crafts and Hobbies ===> Family Life ===> Gaming ===> Health and Medicine ===> Humor and Quizzes ===> Music, Television, and Film ===> Pets ===> Science and Technology ===> Sports and Recreation