The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
August 12, 2020, 01:55:02 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 12, 2020, 01:55:02 am

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Finding a Religion  (Read 9243 times)
TisiphoneSeraph
Master Member
****
Last Login:October 26, 2011, 09:27:49 pm
United States United States

Religion: Hedgewitch
TCN ID: TisiphoneSeraph
Posts: 259


Dreams speak the truth we dare not seek

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Topic Start: August 26, 2010, 08:37:44 pm »

I know a lot of people consider deities and religion at least somewhat seperate and I'm becoming more and more of that opinion myself. Also, I've seen a lot of posts asking about how to find patron gods but not nearly as many asking about finding a religion.


So my questions are these:

How did you find your religion?

Did you adapt to your religion or did you find a religion that already had similar ideology that you already held?

Just like there are very important things to look for when searching for a deity to interact with, what are the most important things to you when you were searching for your religion?
Logged

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Star
Message Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:January 12, 2013, 08:36:08 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Reconstructionist
TCN ID: star
Posts: 9033


Etcetera, Whatever

Blog entries (0)

ilaynay starcr
WWW
« Reply #1: August 27, 2010, 07:23:03 am »

How did you find your religion?

I found my religion at TC.

...No, really.  It was here (well, on Delphiforums) that I was first exposed to the idea of Reconstructionism.  I found it intriguing almost from the get-go, but flirted with it for years before actually jumping in.  The people I interacted with here, and the resources on the Recon page of the website, gave me the information and direction I needed to come around to the conclusion that yes, this was for me.

(I should note, here, that I'm talking about Reconstructionism as though it's a religion, but of course it's really more of an approach to religion.  Closest thing I've got, though.)

Quote
Did you adapt to your religion or did you find a religion that already had similar ideology that you already held?

This is kind of a difficult question.  I think I've answered it in the past as though it were pretty simple:  Why would I practice a religion that didn't already align with my personal values and ideology?  In that sense, no, I haven't adapted to it.  I would, however, say that once I started down this road, it has of course helped shape how I've grown since then.  I wouldn't call that adapting, exactly...  It didn't change who I was or what I believed or what was important to me.  It just gave me more tools to explore those things.  If that makes sense.

Quote
Just like there are very important things to look for when searching for a deity to interact with, what are the most important things to you when you were searching for your religion?

And this one's even more difficult.  The thing is, I was never searching.  I just kind of fell into it.  So...  I didn't really have things I was looking for, it was just kind of, "You know, this appeals to me enough that I keep coming back to it.  Maybe I ought to check it out more seriously."

What appealed to me about it enough to keep drawing me back?  I'm not sure I can pinpoint that.  It just...  seemed right.  It was a way to approach the deity who'd shown some interest in me; it had a sense of tradition and structure that I hadn't realized I was missing until I started looking into this; the values seemed compatible with and supportive of my own.  ::shrug::  What was most important?  I don't know.
Logged

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced."
-- Aart Van Der Leeuw

Main Blog:  Star's Journal of Random Thoughts
Religious Blog:  The Song and the Flame
I can also now be found on Goodreads.
Collinsky
Adept Member
*****
*
*
Last Login:July 03, 2011, 11:33:09 pm
United States United States

Religion: Celtic/Heathen, ADF, UU
TCN ID: Collinsky
Posts: 1026


I was made from the ninefold elements...

Blog entries (0)

Collinsky CollinskyCo
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #2: August 29, 2010, 09:25:48 pm »

I know a lot of people consider deities and religion at least somewhat seperate and I'm becoming more and more of that opinion myself. Also, I've seen a lot of posts asking about how to find patron gods but not nearly as many asking about finding a religion.


So my questions are these:

How did you find your religion?

Did you adapt to your religion or did you find a religion that already had similar ideology that you already held?

Just like there are very important things to look for when searching for a deity to interact with, what are the most important things to you when you were searching for your religion?

Finding a religion was more of a priority to me than finding a deity. Starting out, I thought it would be "neat" to find a deity to be my patron, but finding a religious path was my main goal.

How did you find your religion?
My religion is still evolving, so I don't know if I can consider it "found" yet... maybe it never will be. But since that actually is a part of my beliefs - continual growth and change with new information and perspectives - maybe that's part of my religion.

A few years ago my religion - the solid beliefs and cherished practices of my childhood - was pulled out from under me - not because of any problem or dissatisfaction, but just a perfect storm of new ideas hitting me at the right time in the right way and causing me to decide that what I had to do was let go of all my beliefs, and start from scratch, and see what happened. I figured anything I believed before that was Truth would come back to me, and anything that wasn't wouldn't, and that was good. I did a lot of research - first revisiting religions that had intrigued me in college (my minor was Rel & Phil) then investigating pretty much every religion and sect I could find any information on. A couple years ago, I found myself intrigued by "Paganism" - which meant Wicca in the sources I was finding at the time - and then I cam to tC where I found new ideas and perspectives, and my current path was able to take shape. This forum is also playing a large role in the refinement of my beliefs and practices.

Did you adapt to your religion or did you find a religion that already had similar ideology that you already held?
I am drawn to religions that do support and embrace values and ideas that I already hold, that resonate with me as Truth and as something that will me develop in the ways I find important. I also have found myself adapting to new ideas and information, and so through my seeking of a path, and then this process of refining my path, I am myself also adapting in response to that. So a little of both?

Just like there are very important things to look for when searching for a deity to interact with, what are the most important things to you when you were searching for your religion?
*Honoring of connections - between people and Spirit Beings/deities/ancestors, between people and the Earth, between people and other people, etc etc.
*A solid framework, with room for individuality, autonomy, adaptability, and flexibility (kind of a "roots and wings" thing, I guess)
*Intellectual as well as experiential
*Strong code of ethics






Logged

~*~Colleen~*~
When I'm sad, I stop being sad and be AWESOME instead.
http://colleenrachelle.livejournal.com/
"Let's not confuse your inability to comprehend what I do with my ability to do it."
Vyktor
Master Member
****
Last Login:September 09, 2013, 08:48:21 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Gwyddon
Posts: 309


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3: August 29, 2010, 09:46:11 pm »


So my questions are these:

How did you find your religion?

Did you adapt to your religion or did you find a religion that already had similar ideology that you already held?

Just like there are very important things to look for when searching for a deity to interact with, what are the most important things to you when you were searching for your religion?

I found my religion right here at The Cauldron, or it found me here - that all is yet to be figured out LOL. Honestly its what I came here for. I was floundering and drowning in my lack of focus. It spoke to me and I went on from there.

Did I adapt? Yes and no. I learned. There was and continues to be nothing in the religion that I wholly disagree with. There are some things that are at times vague and I honestly think its the best way for them to be because it allows the practitioner to put their own adaptation to the idea as it most fits in with where that person is at that time. Upon the initial reading of both our Lesser and Greater Books I certainly had a huge feeling of familiarity with the ideology.

As for what I feel is important in looking for a religion is this. What does your gut tell you? If it seems to ring true or makes you want to learn more about it then you might be on to something. If things strike you as horribly different from what you are and you feel you would have to make huge changes to your core values - then likely that is not the one for you.
Logged

Waldfrau
High Adept Member
******
*
Last Login:January 02, 2013, 06:41:55 pm
Germany Germany

Religion: polytheistic witch leaning towards Reclaiming
TCN ID: Waldfrau
Posts: 2903


Blog entries (2)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #4: August 30, 2010, 07:39:33 am »

I've seen a lot of posts asking about how to find patron gods but not nearly as many asking about finding a religion.
Are you sure? I had the impression the 'which path should I take' posts are more often and many newbies start with those before they try to figure out deity-relationship. On the other hand there also some people who start to look into pagan paths because they feel pulled towards a pantheon or deity.

Quote
How did you find your religion?
I'm not sure I have exactly found what you'd call a religion, but I know that I don't need a fully fleshed out and defined religion (tm). When I discovered Paganism I hoped I would finally fit into some path. Now I think I can do stuff A with a bunch of people who like to do stuff A and practice stuff B with others... All I really need is to develop my own way of being spiritual/religious and practice in a spiritual/religious community. But I don't necessarily need to fully fit into a path and it doesn't all have to come in one neat package - I can live with a puzzle of different pieces fitting together. If there should be a path fitting to me fully in one neat package, that would be great though, but I haven't found it yet.

However, I don't think it's wrong if you discover a religion through a relationship with a deity. I don't think there is any rule saying to first search a religion before you interact with deities, and no rule that you should or shouldn't develop deep personal relationships with deities before or after finding a religion. Of course if a path is connected to specific deities I'd look if I can connect to them at all while exploring the path. I think it would be weird to join say hellenismos and not feeling the motivation to make any connection to the Greek pantheon. But if you feel pulled towards one or several Greek deities it doesn't mean you have to become a hellenic either.

Hope I'm making sense.
Logged

My blog: http://waldhexe.wordpress.com/ (English and German entries)
Star
Message Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:January 12, 2013, 08:36:08 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Reconstructionist
TCN ID: star
Posts: 9033


Etcetera, Whatever

Blog entries (0)

ilaynay starcr
WWW
« Reply #5: August 30, 2010, 07:57:20 am »

Are you sure? I had the impression the 'which path should I take' posts are more often and many newbies start with those before they try to figure out deity-relationship.

Eh...  sort of.  Many of the posts we get along those lines are looking for advice on which path to take, as you say.  Not how to find a path--which path to take.  That is, it's asking for an answer, not insight into the process of finding an answer.  Instant teleportation to the destination, not a road map.  (Note:  This isn't always the case; I said "many", not "all".)  In that situation, it's really difficult to give an answer beyond "er...  have you read our Pagan Primer?", and the threads wind up not being as much help as I think they probably could be.

This thread, though, seems much more geared to discussing the process by which one can go about finding a religion.  I think (I hope) this will wind up being more useful than the usual "which path should I take" thread.  There's a saying about giving a man a fish (and you feed him for a day) vs. teaching him to fish (which allows him to feed himself for the rest of his life) that applies here, I suspect.  If nothing else, it's probably good to have a thread that comes at it from a non-personal angle; it's easier to sort of untangle what the general process is if you're not wrapped up in giving personal advice that's tailored to a particular person in a particular situation, IMO.
Logged

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced."
-- Aart Van Der Leeuw

Main Blog:  Star's Journal of Random Thoughts
Religious Blog:  The Song and the Flame
I can also now be found on Goodreads.
Waldfrau
High Adept Member
******
*
Last Login:January 02, 2013, 06:41:55 pm
Germany Germany

Religion: polytheistic witch leaning towards Reclaiming
TCN ID: Waldfrau
Posts: 2903


Blog entries (2)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #6: August 30, 2010, 10:31:09 am »

Eh...  sort of.  Many of the posts we get along those lines are looking for advice on which path to take, as you say.  Not how to find a path--which path to take.  That is, it's asking for an answer, not insight into the process of finding an answer.  Instant teleportation to the destination, not a road map.  (Note:  This isn't always the case; I said "many", not "all".)  In that situation, it's really difficult to give an answer beyond "er...  have you read our Pagan Primer?", and the threads wind up not being as much help as I think they probably could be.

This thread, though, seems much more geared to discussing the process by which one can go about finding a religion.  I think (I hope) this will wind up being more useful than the usual "which path should I take" thread.  There's a saying about giving a man a fish (and you feed him for a day) vs. teaching him to fish (which allows him to feed himself for the rest of his life) that applies here, I suspect.  If nothing else, it's probably good to have a thread that comes at it from a non-personal angle; it's easier to sort of untangle what the general process is if you're not wrapped up in giving personal advice that's tailored to a particular person in a particular situation, IMO.
I didn't mean to put TisiphoneSeraph's thread into the same box as 'which path should I take'-threads. I was merely trying to make the point that there have been more path-search threads than patron deity-search threads according to my impression. I didn't mean to dismiss TisiphoneSeraph's thread intention, although I realize I must have sounded like that. If I had found her topic repetitive I wouldn't have responded at all. I was simply adressing the comparison between path-search and patron deity-search.

My earlier response was meant in a general way to her starting point about religion search and patron deity search. I don't think we had a general 'how to find your path/religion'-thread yet, mostly we had individual requests of people to help them find a path/religion by suggestion of paths, books and research tools - as you say.
Logged

My blog: http://waldhexe.wordpress.com/ (English and German entries)
Star
Message Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:January 12, 2013, 08:36:08 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Reconstructionist
TCN ID: star
Posts: 9033


Etcetera, Whatever

Blog entries (0)

ilaynay starcr
WWW
« Reply #7: August 30, 2010, 10:39:54 am »

I didn't mean to dismiss TisiphoneSeraph's thread intention, although I realize I must have sounded like that. If I had found her topic repetitive I wouldn't have responded at all. I was simply adressing the comparison between path-search and patron deity-search.

I don't think you sounded dismissive at all.  Smiley  I'm sorry if I came across as too critical of your response; that wasn't my intent.  I disagreed with your impression that we've had more path-search threads (because many of them aren't "search" so much as "tell me where to go"), but I didn't mean to imply that I thought you thought this thread was on a level with the "tell me where to go" threads.

It's not really a major point in the overall context of the thread and I probably shouldn't have mentioned it--didn't mean to sidetrack.  Sorry.   Undecided
Logged

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced."
-- Aart Van Der Leeuw

Main Blog:  Star's Journal of Random Thoughts
Religious Blog:  The Song and the Flame
I can also now be found on Goodreads.
TisiphoneSeraph
Master Member
****
Last Login:October 26, 2011, 09:27:49 pm
United States United States

Religion: Hedgewitch
TCN ID: TisiphoneSeraph
Posts: 259


Dreams speak the truth we dare not seek

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #8: August 30, 2010, 12:04:57 pm »

My earlier response was meant in a general way to her starting point about religion search and patron deity search. I don't think we had a general 'how to find your path/religion'-thread yet, mostly we had individual requests of people to help them find a path/religion by suggestion of paths, books and research tools - as you say.

True. I hadn't really considered those threads that were more path by way of suggestion similar to patron deities by way of method but I guess they are.
Logged
Collinsky
Adept Member
*****
*
*
Last Login:July 03, 2011, 11:33:09 pm
United States United States

Religion: Celtic/Heathen, ADF, UU
TCN ID: Collinsky
Posts: 1026


I was made from the ninefold elements...

Blog entries (0)

Collinsky CollinskyCo
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #9: August 30, 2010, 02:03:11 pm »

Eh...  sort of.  Many of the posts we get along those lines are looking for advice on which path to take, as you say.  Not how to find a path--which path to take.  That is, it's asking for an answer, not insight into the process of finding an answer.  Instant teleportation to the destination, not a road map.  (Note:  This isn't always the case; I said "many", not "all".)  In that situation, it's really difficult to give an answer beyond "er...  have you read our Pagan Primer?", and the threads wind up not being as much help as I think they probably could be.

Starting out in Paganism, that is *exactly* what I wanted. The package deal, signed, sealed, and delivered... I think it's just a normal part of things.
Logged

~*~Colleen~*~
When I'm sad, I stop being sad and be AWESOME instead.
http://colleenrachelle.livejournal.com/
"Let's not confuse your inability to comprehend what I do with my ability to do it."
Rowanfox
Master Member
****
Last Login:December 02, 2010, 12:55:53 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Gardnerian
Posts: 472


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #10: August 30, 2010, 06:10:49 pm »

I know a lot of people consider deities and religion at least somewhat seperate and I'm becoming more and more of that opinion myself. Also, I've seen a lot of posts asking about how to find patron gods but not nearly as many asking about finding a religion.


So my questions are these:

How did you find your religion?

Did you adapt to your religion or did you find a religion that already had similar ideology that you already held?

Just like there are very important things to look for when searching for a deity to interact with, what are the most important things to you when you were searching for your religion?

I can answer all three questions with one answer. From the time I was very young, I knew I had a religion, I simply did not know the name of it. I had fully developed ideas about "how the world was" and "what God was like" and "how God and I related". My only issue was I had no name for my religion, and when I went searching for others with the same religion.... I had a very long hard search.

The religion I found that finally felt like it fit with all of my own ideas and values is a very specific tradition of the BTW family. My own branch tends to go with the idea that we are not made, we simply find our way home.
Logged

TisiphoneSeraph
Master Member
****
Last Login:October 26, 2011, 09:27:49 pm
United States United States

Religion: Hedgewitch
TCN ID: TisiphoneSeraph
Posts: 259


Dreams speak the truth we dare not seek

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #11: August 30, 2010, 07:13:07 pm »

I can answer all three questions with one answer. From the time I was very young, I knew I had a religion, I simply did not know the name of it. I had fully developed ideas about "how the world was" and "what God was like" and "how God and I related". My only issue was I had no name for my religion, and when I went searching for others with the same religion.... I had a very long hard search.

I feel like I'm in this boat. I have a very distinct idea of how the universe works and divinity and such but I haven't found something gives me a framework in which to apply those ideas. I feel like Heartshadow's Flamekeeping is probably the closest I've found. As far as honoring the gods I'm finding that I like the approach of recon but have trouble blending it into a complete and meaningful practice. I know what I want though and I have a feeling when I read about it or hear about it I'll just know.
Logged
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Staff
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:January 20, 2020, 08:24:45 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #12: September 01, 2010, 03:19:12 pm »

How did you find your religion?

Accidentally.

I spent years dithering around in and out of the extended pagan community knowing that I was a polytheist and not finding much of anything that worked for me.  I was reading a book one day and had a really strong emotional reaction to something in one of its correspondence charts.

And then, well, I said, "Most correspondence charts in pagan books suck.  Let me do some research to figure out if this is genuine."  So I did research, and wound up finding the Kemetic temples.  And then I did research on the Kemetic temples (I picked the one with language in its charter that looked poly-friendly to start with) and ... bam.  There was all this stuff there, that articulated things that I had believed, and never had good language for.  So I started pursuing that.

A bit after that I joined the Cauldron back on Delphi, and saw discussion of a religion I had never heard of before, which intrigued me a little in an academic way, up until I got one of those bop upside the head "You should study this" moments.  So, uh.  Life kept being busy.

Quote
Did you adapt to your religion or did you find a religion that already had similar ideology that you already held?

Yes.

The thing about finding a system that already functions is that it raises questions and challenges, and I had to respond to those, think things through, come to a better understanding.  It's important to actually engage.

Quote
Just like there are very important things to look for when searching for a deity to interact with, what are the most important things to you when you were searching for your religion?

It had to make sense.  That's the core thing, really: I needed to articulate my understandings of the cosmos, and something that didn't speak to the stuff that I cared about wasn't going to do the job.
Logged

American Asatruar
Senior Newbie
*
Last Login:April 30, 2011, 08:58:36 am
United States United States

Religion: asatru
Posts: 9

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #13: September 04, 2010, 07:09:58 pm »

Accidentally.

I spent years dithering around in and out of the extended pagan community knowing that I was a polytheist and not finding much of anything that worked for me.  I was reading a book one day and had a really strong emotional reaction to something in one of its correspondence charts.

And then, well, I said, "Most correspondence charts in pagan books suck.  Let me do some research to figure out if this is genuine."  So I did research, and wound up finding the Kemetic temples.  And then I did research on the Kemetic temples (I picked the one with language in its charter that looked poly-friendly to start with) and ... bam.  There was all this stuff there, that articulated things that I had believed, and never had good language for.  So I started pursuing that.

A bit after that I joined the Cauldron back on Delphi, and saw discussion of a religion I had never heard of before, which intrigued me a little in an academic way, up until I got one of those bop upside the head "You should study this" moments.  So, uh.  Life kept being busy.

Yes.

The thing about finding a system that already functions is that it raises questions and challenges, and I had to respond to those, think things through, come to a better understanding.  It's important to actually engage.

It had to make sense.  That's the core thing, really: I needed to articulate my understandings of the cosmos, and something that didn't speak to the stuff that I cared about wasn't going to do the job.

Well, I tried a lot of things out, and really Asatru sticks out as something that fits a lot of what I believe.  I believe in honoring the land, the ancestors, and landspirits.  I tried being a Grecoroman shaman for a while, but it seems like those two paths are too divergent to make a whole.  The GR paganism is much more urban and cerebral, and paganism is a polar opposite.  So I read a bit, and Asatru fits better.  I'm more of an asatru-shaman type. 

Logged
Sperran
Reserve Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:October 18, 2014, 02:07:12 am
United States United States

Religion: Judaism
Posts: 2945


Adonai Echad

Blog entries (8)


« Reply #14: September 04, 2010, 11:11:53 pm »

I know a lot of people consider deities and religion at least somewhat seperate and I'm becoming more and more of that opinion myself. Also, I've seen a lot of posts asking about how to find patron gods but not nearly as many asking about finding a religion.


So my questions are these:

How did you find your religion?

Did you adapt to your religion or did you find a religion that already had similar ideology that you already held?

Just like there are very important things to look for when searching for a deity to interact with, what are the most important things to you when you were searching for your religion?

I found my religion through a confluence of things.  I studied a variety of religions intensely.  I studied my own needs and expectations.  I also tried out and experienced a variety of faiths.  Judaism was the only one I found that met my moral, ethical, intellectual and emotional needs. 

Sperran
Logged

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Finding Myrddin « 1 2 3 »
Books and Other Resources
elaoin 34 13233 Last post June 02, 2007, 09:05:25 am
by RandallS
Finding time... « 1 2 »
Faith in Everyday Life
Serenah 27 9442 Last post June 11, 2007, 05:56:57 pm
by Purplewitch
Finding community the right way
Paganism For Beginners
lil brown bat 9 7599 Last post October 05, 2007, 09:46:07 am
by lil brown bat
Help finding Deity
Paganism For Beginners
j9 7 3816 Last post October 12, 2007, 04:50:10 pm
by D_LeFae
Finding Time for Religion? « 1 2 »
Paganism For Beginners
Neriandal Freit 27 7606 Last post November 17, 2007, 03:38:50 pm
by TheAmityvilleGhost
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.105 seconds with 54 queries.