Things you'll never hear a non-pagan kid say...

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

Or donate directly via Paypal

This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.

[Darkhawk]

Mm.  My mother would go through my room, throw everything that I had picked up that she didn't think was tidy enough into a giant heap on the floor, and threaten to throw it away if I didn't clean up what she had just uncleaned.  She'd do it, too.

End result: I am both incapable of cleaning (because I never understood her standards and no matter what I did I got this kind of result) and incapable of throwing things away myself (because of a deep-seated insecurity about the trustworthiness of possession).

[Juni]

End result: I am both incapable of cleaning (because I never understood her standards and no matter what I did I got this kind of result) and incapable of throwing things away myself (because of a deep-seated insecurity about the trustworthiness of possession).

Ah, my mother's standards for clean were noticeably more lax- she's one of those people who stuffs things into boxes and bins and hides them behind curtains and cabinet doors. As long as it "looks presentable" it doesn't matter what's inside. My end results: I am still a slob, but I've learned how to make things look neat when I need to, even if they aren't organized. I got the opposite attachment result- I can throw away damn near anything, no matter how much was spent on it or who gave it to me, because I tend not to attach memories/emotions to much of anything.

I'd return the thread back to it's original topic, but unfortunately I have no cute pagan-child antics to relate, as I don't know any pagan children! Ah well.

[Mandi]

Mm.  My mother would go through my room, throw everything that I had picked up that she didn't think was tidy enough into a giant heap on the floor, and threaten to throw it away if I didn't clean up what she had just uncleaned.  She'd do it, too.

End result: I am both incapable of cleaning (because I never understood her standards and no matter what I did I got this kind of result) and incapable of throwing things away myself (because of a deep-seated insecurity about the trustworthiness of possession).

My dad had a version of that.  Surprise shakedown weed outs.  Nothing like being told to strip your room of anything that someone not yourself felt was outdated, broken or not worth keeping, and not being able to do it correctly so they would then of course do it for you when you weren't there, and had no chance to make a case for your possessions.

My end result is the exact opposite.  Absolutely OCD cleaning standards and very few long term object attachments.  My motto in life has become when in doubt throw it out, probably because I learned early that if I got too attached to something and the parent doing the weed out didn't understand my reasoning or if it didn't fit the image that he was trying to form then it went.

I remember as a kid sneaking out to the garage to go through the trash bins to rescue things that were a part of my identity that I was unwilling to let go, getting caught and having to clean the garage. 

The result, a serious love affair with boxes, baskets and zip lock bags.  If it's categorized in a ziplock, in a box with like objects it's meaning is self explanatory and it is safe and the ability to hide things so well even I can't find them.

[catja6]

That is *exactly* what my mother would do, and had exactly the same result.  I also have a really intense, creeped-out emotional response to parents who brag about doing similar things to their kids, because it did me no good whatsoever, and took me a long time to start trusting my mom again.

[Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)]

Mm.  My mother would go through my room, throw everything that I had picked up that she didn't think was tidy enough into a giant heap on the floor, and threaten to throw it away if I didn't clean up what she had just uncleaned.  She'd do it, too.

End result: I am both incapable of cleaning (because I never understood her standards and no matter what I did I got this kind of result) and incapable of throwing things away myself (because of a deep-seated insecurity about the trustworthiness of possession).

My mother was a happy slob.  As long as there was no food involved she believed a messy bedroom could be solved by closing the door.  Everybody but me did their own laundry as soon as they were old enough to reach the machine (I blew one up once and never had to do it again until I left home).  She would get a cleaning urge once or twice a year but if she started with the book shelves she was distracted immediately.

My dad was better, but he was mainly concerned about a clear path to all the fire exits.  General clutter only had to be cleared if his mother was coming over.  He didn't like dirt, and we all learned to scrub the underneath, but books, coats, boots, and animals were all over the place.  We moved a lot and coming into a new house and leaving an old one were the main clean times.

Their result - one slob, one hider, one who pays people to clean, and one who trained his kids to pick up after themselves from the time they could walk.  I do the occasional ritual clean (there, one on-topic sentence!), and generally avoid dirt and actual garbage, but I pitch or hide most things that don't have an immediate purpose.

Absent

[Ana]

Mm.  My mother would go through my room, throw everything that I had picked up that she didn't think was tidy enough into a giant heap on the floor, and threaten to throw it away if I didn't clean up what she had just uncleaned.  She'd do it, too.

End result: I am both incapable of cleaning (because I never understood her standards and no matter what I did I got this kind of result) and incapable of throwing things away myself (because of a deep-seated insecurity about the trustworthiness of possession).

My mom did exactly the same thing!  She'd go under my bed, in my closet, anywhere on the floor and pile it high on top of my bed and tell me that if I didn't have it cleaned by bedtime, or if I even CONSIDERED throwing it back on the floor after she'd "cleaned" it off the floor, not only would anything left out "because you obviously don't want it" would be thrown away (which she really would do) but I'd also be grounded for a week- which usually meant cleaning the rest of the house and babysitting.

Yeah... I'm still a terrible housekeeper.  My mom's ocd about clean... I just can't.

[SunflowerP]

That is *exactly* what my mother would do, and had exactly the same result.  I also have a really intense, creeped-out emotional response to parents who brag about doing similar things to their kids, because it did me no good whatsoever, and took me a long time to start trusting my mom again.

When it comes to possession-related issues, I still don't completely trust my mother.  Mostly, but not completely - because fucked-up stuff still happens from time to time.

What I experienced is somewhat different from what you and DH did, and by most measures considerably less severe - but by the same token, less consistent (there were ways my mom was more respectful of property/privacy than most parents, too).  The results aren't identical either, but are comparable - it wasn't until I was 37 that I discovered that I'm not a slob by nature (it's just that I have to be tidy as I go along, rather than cleaning up at intervals; if I let it get messy, I get overwhelmed - but I had to learn "be tidy as I go along" myself from scratch), and I have, um, stuff-anxiety is the best way to put it.  And, yep, "really intense creeped-out emotional reaction," which is why I'm not being very specific - I wouldn't be posting at all if I didn't deeply need to speak up to stand in solidarity with others who've been screwed over by things like this.

Thank you, Darkhawk and Catja, for bringing up this side of it.

Sunflower

[Juni]

Thank you, Darkhawk and Catja, for bringing up this side of it.

Well, there's one method I'll cross off the future parenting method list. I'm sorry you've all had such negative experiences!

[Star]

That is *exactly* what my mother would do, and had exactly the same result.  I also have a really intense, creeped-out emotional response to parents who brag about doing similar things to their kids, because it did me no good whatsoever, and took me a long time to start trusting my mom again.

(Hanging this off of your post because it was a handy one, but this is more of a general reply to everyone's negative experiences.)

Ergh.  ::wince::  I can see where that kind of thing, when done regularly and randomly and with the threat of permanent loss of belongings, would definitely create some bad experiences.  For the record, what you are all describing is not at all what I had in mind when I was expressing appreciation of CrinklyBlue's suggestion.  I was seeing it as more of a one-time thing, done in an extreme situation where the parent really, really needs to get the kid's attention and doesn't see any other way, and with the belongings only being taken away until the point was made (not pitched or given away, that is, but given back once the punishment was over).  I suspect when talking about it afterward, I wouldn't be so much bragging as exasperated.  I hope it never comes to the point where I feel like I have to do something like that, though.

[stephyjh]

Today my five year old says "Mommy, can we smudge?"   So we went to the drawer to get the smudging sticks.  She couldn't find the one she wanted...I pulled out several...no, not that one, not that one.  Finally she says...YES, that's it...the sweetgrass...that's the best one. 

I have a friend, back in the States, who's strictly Catholic but had questions about my path when I went back for a visit a few months ago. I was talking to her about the Celtic gods, and she got a little snotty--"Come on, you know as well as I do that there's only one god." Her little boy, who's about 7, told her, "Don't say that--you'll hurt the other gods' feelings!"

[salisem]

I have a friend, back in the States, who's strictly Catholic but had questions about my path when I went back for a visit a few months ago. I was talking to her about the Celtic gods, and she got a little snotty--"Come on, you know as well as I do that there's only one god." Her little boy, who's about 7, told her, "Don't say that--you'll hurt the other gods' feelings!"

That is awesome!  I hope she'll give him the opportunity to explore his spirituality as he feels fit.

[folksymama]

When it comes to possession-related issues, I still don't completely trust my mother.  Mostly, but not completely - because fucked-up stuff still happens from time to time.


Thank you, Darkhawk and Catja, for bringing up this side of it.

These posts have really opened my eyes because, I'll admit, I've done the 'throw everything in a trash bag that's on the floor' thing with my oldest.  I hope I'm not scarring her for life!    But I will say, it's just SO incredibly frustrating to beg, plead, threaten, cajole, bargain, bed and plead again about cleaning her room.  It's not hard, and it shouldn't be my job to do it.  I don't expect her to live up to any rigorous standard of cleanliness, but I expect her room to be tidy...and not at all times, but at least once a week I need to be able to walk through it.

So, with that said, for those of you who are carrying baggage because of the situation...can I ask what do you think would have worked to get you to clean the room?  Or was it just that your parent's expectations were just too high for a child?  When I throw the "crap" out, I'm typically thinking that if it were something really important to her, it wouldn't be on the floor in the first place. And I'm also thinking that she just has too much stuff, gets overwhelmed with the sheer quantity of it, and it's easier for her to keep the stuff she does have clean if there's not as much of it.  But maybe she's seeing it differently, I don't know...

I know for me personally, my mom is the world's worst housekeeper and her house needs serious purging.  And she was a kid who was expected to keep things meticulously clean as a child, not just her room, but the whole house.  So, I think that spilled over to her adulthood where she has trouble letting things go.  For me, growing up in THAT house, however, has made me an adult who WANTS to hold onto things, but I know what it leads to so I force myself to purge every now and then and generally lean more towards a "throw it out" mentality.

[Juni]

(not pitched or given away, that is, but given back once the punishment was over).

I think this is likely a very important distinction; in the suggestion Crinklyblue made, the items were simply taken away as punishment, a more enforceable version of "you're grounded, no tv/whatever." I have some more thoughts/questions on the subject, but I think I'll take them to a new thread.

[Juni]

"Don't say that--you'll hurt the other gods' feelings!"

That is adorable.

[Mandi]

(Hanging this off of your post because it was a handy one, but this is more of a general reply to everyone's negative experiences.)

 I was seeing it as more of a one-time thing, done in an extreme situation where the parent really, really needs to get the kid's attention and doesn't see any other way, and with the belongings only being taken away until the point was made (not pitched or given away, that is, but given back once the punishment was over).  I suspect when talking about it afterward, I wouldn't be so much bragging as exasperated.  I hope it never comes to the point where I feel like I have to do something like that, though.

What we do that keeps the mess problem to a minimum - and I didn't think of it till just this year, but it's perfect since the boys are so close in age.  We keep all toys in the 'playroom' (secondary family space that we don't use much so it's been dedicated kid space) and have a system of bins. 

Only personal 'treasure' possessions go in the bedrooms, if it's in the bedroom it means it's a sacred something.  I will straighten but not remove unless something disastrous has been done - like dumping the entire crayon bin into a dresser drawer or trying to dictate an entire bin of playroom toys personal treasure.

This way they can straighten and clean quickly because there's never so much *junk* running around the room that they start dictating it junk and making piles of it.  If it's in common family space, then it falls under my day to day cleaning.

[Tags:]

Jump to: Please select a destination: ----------------------------- About The Cauldron ----------------------------- => Rules and Regulations => Cauldron Announcements ===> Volunteers Needed: Site Assistants and Projects => Introductions => Board Questions, Suggestions, and Feedback => Chat and CauldronMUX Support => Test Board ----------------------------- Religion and Philosophy ----------------------------- => Paganism For Beginners => Books and Other Resources => Pagan Religions => Pagan Spirituality => Gods, Goddesses, and Mythology => Worship and Ritual => Holidays and Festivals => History and Religion => Faith in Everyday Life => Philosophy and Metaphysics => Non-Pagan Religions and Interfaith Discussions => Miscellaneous Religious Discussions ----------------------------- Magic and the Occult ----------------------------- => Magic and the Occult for Beginners => Witchcraft, Hoodoo, and Folk Magic => The Western Magical Tradition => Chaos Magic => Lodges and Other Magic Organizations => Miscellaneous Magical Discussions ----------------------------- Special Interest Groups & Special Discussions ----------------------------- => Special Topic Discussions => Chavi Memorial Chronic Illness SIG => General SIGS ===> College Pagans SIG ===> Cooking SIG ===> Divination SIG ===> Home and Garden SIG ===> Pagan Parents SIG ===> Teen Pagans SIG => Religious SIGS ===> Asatru and Heathenry SIG ===> Cauldron Cill ===> FlameKeeping SIG ===> Hazel and Oak: A Celtic Polytheism SIG ===> Neo-Druidry SIG ===> Reformed Kemeticism SIG ===> Ta Hiera Hellenic Polytheism SIG => Book/Media Discussion Boards ===> Academic Book Discussions ===> Pagan Religion Book Discussions ===> Magick Book Discussions ===> Fiction Book Discussions ===> DVD/Video Discussions ----------------------------- Life, the Universe, and Everything Else ----------------------------- => Pagan Announcements => Prayer and Energy Requests => News and Politics ===> Religious News ===> Non-Religious News ===> Political Discussions => Social Discussion Boards ===> Art, Poetry and Writing ===> Books ===> Computers and the Internet ===> Crafts and Hobbies ===> Family Life ===> Gaming ===> Health and Medicine ===> Humor and Quizzes ===> Music, Television, and Film ===> Pets ===> Science and Technology ===> Sports and Recreation