Children and Your Altar.

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[Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)]

Your parents sound pretty damn awesome.

They were, but pity me for being a teenager in the 70s with nothing to rebel against.

Absent

[Juni]

Neither is an accurate picture - just a frozen snapshot from one perspective, and not enough to form a valid judgment from.

I used to work in retail too, and while this can be a hard thing to remember, I think it's really important to remember. I have a number of friends who complain loudly when they come across a fussy or loud child in public, and it drives me absolutely crazy to listen to them complain. As Star pointed out, there is no magic formula. Every parent is an individual, with their own personality, and so is every child. I think the only things that come close to being universal are a need for consistency and follow-through. Without consistency, children learn that punishment/discipline is dependent on their parents' mood, not on their own behavior; without follow-through, children learn that they can behave as they please without consequence. I agree that there are a lot of poorly disciplined children out there, many with parents who are more concerned with being their child's friend than parent, but I think a lot of that is the parents' desire not to be like their own distant or heavily disciplining parents, which I find hard to blame them for.

[NibbleKat]

Actually, looking at it from that view, then yeah, I can agree with you and with Shadow. *nodnod* I know that it's all too easy to lump folks in together when they don't fit the mold... but it's hard not to when you do see folks who just aren't trying.

I have seen the occasional mom or dad who is trying and doing all the "right things" who has the child who is still going bananas, so... yep.

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

Actually, looking at it from that view, then yeah, I can agree with you and with Shadow. *nodnod* I know that it's all too easy to lump folks in together when they don't fit the mold... but it's hard not to when you do see folks who just aren't trying.

I have seen the occasional mom or dad who is trying and doing all the "right things" who has the child who is still going bananas, so... yep.

and honestly, there are days I give the hell up.  Not often, but there are days when it's just "get through until I can get home".

All parents have days like THAT, too.

[Darkhawk]

I grew up terrified of my father, too.  I refuse to do that to my daughter if I can help it.  Respect, yes.  Fear, no.

S/father/mother, and undersigned.

[Sperran]

Neither is an accurate picture - just a frozen snapshot from one perspective, and not enough to form a valid judgment from.

I think this is something that we should (try to) remember when interacting with people in a wide variety of situations.  A few moments in a grocery store is not going to present an accurate picture of most people.

Sperran

[Star]

I grew up terrified of my father, too.  I refuse to do that to my daughter if I can help it.  Respect, yes.  Fear, no.

It occurs to me belatedly that I should add, in defense of my father:  He never, ever laid a hand on us or said anything I'd consider emotionally abusive (that I remember, at least), and mostly he really wasn't a bad father.  The situation could have been a lot worse, and I'm sure is nothing compared to the experiences some other people have had with their parents.  He just had a hard time with his temper and tended to yell a lot when he got upset.  Sometimes he'd bang around a bit, but never in the direction of people--when he lashed out at anything physically, it was an inanimate object, and he was very clear on that point with us. 

Still, as a child, that was pretty scary all by itself.  When you're five, or seven, or ten and the parent you love is screaming at the top of his lungs about something you have (even legitimately) done wrong, that's terrifying.  When he leaves a dent in your bedroom door, it's really not that much consolation to know that he'd never hit you; that's still a frightening display of temper.  As much as I love my daddy, the way he behaved when he was angry did leave some emotional damage that stuck around for a long time. 

I don't want my daughter to have to feel that way about me, or deal with that fallout.  I do want her to respect me, and her father, and other people in general.  I don't think that needs to involve fear.  I back down from using fear not because I feel like I've got to handle my child with metaphorical kid gloves (er, no pun intended), but because I know, firsthand, that I can scar her for life if I'm not careful with this.  I see the same flare-ups in my own emotions, and I know that if I don't control it I'll be just like Dad was.  As much as that turned out OK in the end--he raised two good kids, if I say so myself, and has very good relationships with both my brother and myself these days--it is not something I want to inflict on my daughter.

[NibbleKat]

It occurs to me belatedly that I should add, in defense of my father:  He never, ever laid a hand on us or said anything I'd consider emotionally abusive (that I remember, at least), and mostly he really wasn't a bad father.  The situation could have been a lot worse, and I'm sure is nothing compared to the experiences some other people have had with their parents.  He just had a hard time with his temper and tended to yell a lot when he got upset.  Sometimes he'd bang around a bit, but never in the direction of people--when he lashed out at anything physically, it was an inanimate object, and he was very clear on that point with us. 

Still, as a child, that was pretty scary all by itself.  When you're five, or seven, or ten and the parent you love is screaming at the top of his lungs about something you have (even legitimately) done wrong, that's terrifying.  When he leaves a dent in your bedroom door, it's really not that much consolation to know that he'd never hit you; that's still a frightening display of temper.  As much as I love my daddy, the way he behaved when he was angry did leave some emotional damage that stuck around for a long time. 

I don't want my daughter to have to feel that way about me, or deal with that fallout.  I do want her to respect me, and her father, and other people in general.  I don't think that needs to involve fear.  I back down from using fear not because I feel like I've got to handle my child with metaphorical kid gloves (er, no pun intended), but because I know, firsthand, that I can scar her for life if I'm not careful with this.  I see the same flare-ups in my own emotions, and I know that if I don't control it I'll be just like Dad was.  As much as that turned out OK in the end--he raised two good kids, if I say so myself, and has very good relationships with both my brother and myself these days--it is not something I want to inflict on my daughter.

I don't  half wonder if a lot of these parents who don't really know how  to parent in a way that will keep their kids from becoming monsters aren't folks like us... who have the 'old school' parents who did yell, who did (like my dad) use a belt to whip them, who were all for corporal punishment, etc... and they want to change the pattern, make their kids experience something different more out of LOVE than anything else.

[veggiewolf]

It occurs to me belatedly that I should add, in defense of my father:  He never, ever laid a hand on us or said anything I'd consider emotionally abusive (that I remember, at least), and mostly he really wasn't a bad father.  The situation could have been a lot worse, and I'm sure is nothing compared to the experiences some other people have had with their parents.  He just had a hard time with his temper and tended to yell a lot when he got upset.  Sometimes he'd bang around a bit, but never in the direction of people--when he lashed out at anything physically, it was an inanimate object, and he was very clear on that point with us. 

Still, as a child, that was pretty scary all by itself.  When you're five, or seven, or ten and the parent you love is screaming at the top of his lungs about something you have (even legitimately) done wrong, that's terrifying.  When he leaves a dent in your bedroom door, it's really not that much consolation to know that he'd never hit you; that's still a frightening display of temper.  As much as I love my daddy, the way he behaved when he was angry did leave some emotional damage that stuck around for a long time. 

I don't want my daughter to have to feel that way about me, or deal with that fallout.  I do want her to respect me, and her father, and other people in general.  I don't think that needs to involve fear.  I back down from using fear not because I feel like I've got to handle my child with metaphorical kid gloves (er, no pun intended), but because I know, firsthand, that I can scar her for life if I'm not careful with this.  I see the same flare-ups in my own emotions, and I know that if I don't control it I'll be just like Dad was.  As much as that turned out OK in the end--he raised two good kids, if I say so myself, and has very good relationships with both my brother and myself these days--it is not something I want to inflict on my daughter.

This.  My father was the same way, Star, and it affected how I've raised my son.

[ScorpioMoon]

I used to work in retail too, and while this can be a hard thing to remember, I think it's really important to remember. I have a number of friends who complain loudly when they come across a fussy or loud child in public, and it drives me absolutely crazy to listen to them complain. As Star pointed out, there is no magic formula. Every parent is an individual, with their own personality, and so is every child. I think the only things that come close to being universal are a need for consistency and follow-through. Without consistency, children learn that punishment/discipline is dependent on their parents' mood, not on their own behavior; without follow-through, children learn that they can behave as they please without consequence. I agree that there are a lot of poorly disciplined children out there, many with parents who are more concerned with being their child's friend than parent, but I think a lot of that is the parents' desire not to be like their own distant or heavily disciplining parents, which I find hard to blame them for.

This is so true it was worth quoting. My daughter and I definately have different parenting styles, and both my grandchildren are different in what it takes to work with them.

If we'd had a diagnosis when the youngest was still little I'd have bought her a t-shirt to wear when we had to take her shopping with us or wanted to try eating out "I'm not rude, hyper, or spoiled. I'm Autistic." I know people around us wondered why we couldn't make her stop yelling and crying and flailing around. Whenever possible we took her outside, which also gave her a space to calm down without so much sensory input flooding her senses. But it wasn't always possible to do that immediately.

The oldest could be difficult to - children with ADHD have a very hard time with self-control. Research has shown that developmentally and socially they are at least 30% behind their peers. So if you see a child that looks like he is about 6 or 7 years old and you think he's behaving like a toddler, there's a medical reason for that behavior.

They both had very good manners when they weren't overwhelmed, but shopping can overwhelm a typical grownup, it just doesn't take as long for a special needs child to get overwhelmed. Or a special needs adult - I have ADHD and Anxiety and Sensory Processing Disorder and get very overwhelmed in large, crowded stores. I never go to Walmart, I prefer the dollar stores.

[knitsy]

They both had very good manners when they weren't overwhelmed, but shopping can overwhelm a typical grownup, it just doesn't take as long for a special needs child to get overwhelmed. Or a special needs adult - I have ADHD and Anxiety and Sensory Processing Disorder and get very overwhelmed in large, crowded stores. I never go to Walmart, I prefer the dollar stores.

I hear you! Try Wal-Mart at 3 AM. Ahhh, so much better!

[ScorpioMoon]

I hear you! Try Wal-Mart at 3 AM. Ahhh, so much better!

I did my grocery shopping (Krogers) around midnight for years and years. And then my daughter and I moved in together after we both got divorced, and I'm helping raise my two special needs grandkids - which means I'm back to getting up early and going to bed early like when their mommy was little.

It's more than just the crowds though, I have Sensory Processing Disorder, and the sheer size of the place, the florescent lights, the smells from the candle and laundry and even coffee aisles makes me sick, and when they make an announcement over the loud speaker I jump out of my skin. I do wear silicone ear plugs when I go to the Big Stores but I only go to get a few things, in and out as quick as possible. And pray I don't get stuck in a checkout line with someone wearing a whole bottle of perfume.

[knitsy]

I did my grocery shopping (Krogers) around midnight for years and years. And then my daughter and I moved in together after we both got divorced, and I'm helping raise my two special needs grandkids - which means I'm back to getting up early and going to bed early like when their mommy was little.

It's more than just the crowds though, I have Sensory Processing Disorder, and the sheer size of the place, the florescent lights, the smells from the candle and laundry and even coffee aisles makes me sick, and when they make an announcement over the loud speaker I jump out of my skin. I do wear silicone ear plugs when I go to the Big Stores but I only go to get a few things, in and out as quick as possible. And pray I don't get stuck in a checkout line with someone wearing a whole bottle of perfume.

Wow. Well good on you for making your way through it. You're brave.

[ScorpioMoon]

Wow. Well good on you for making your way through it. You're brave.

Brave? I dunno. Sometimes I just have to do what I have to do. I've found early Sunday morning at Walmart works pretty well, and since I'm used to getting up early with the girls, I just stop then if I need something I can only get at Walmart. They do have some things that Target doesn't. Funny, innit, that Target is also a large store, but it's just not as overwhelming to my senses - and generally not as crowded with selfish rude jerks - as Walmart generally is.

[veggiewolf]

Brave? I dunno. Sometimes I just have to do what I have to do. I've found early Sunday morning at Walmart works pretty well, and since I'm used to getting up early with the girls, I just stop then if I need something I can only get at Walmart. They do have some things that Target doesn't. Funny, innit, that Target is also a large store, but it's just not as overwhelming to my senses - and generally not as crowded with selfish rude jerks - as Walmart generally is.

I've found Target's aisles to be wider than those at Wal-Mart, and Target also lays things out in less of a...crowded way IMO.  I don't have sensory processing issues, but Wal-Mart makes my skin crawl to the point that I don't go in unless I absolutely have to.

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