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Author Topic: The Contradiction  (Read 10517 times)
Dame Guenn Eona Nimue
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« Topic Start: September 09, 2010, 12:11:04 pm »


Our beloved Earth should not be facing many of the problems she currently faces, such as over population, mountainous landfills, global warming (and the consequent rise in sea level), pollution and ever diminishing natural resources.

A good example is automobiles. No one could be unaware how driving a car harms the Earth in so many ways, including, but by no means limited to, air pollution and the unfolding ecological disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. Do you feel at all responsible as you turn the key to start your car?  Is that “just the way it is”? Or, have you found an alternative way of living that largely removes you from this harmful and destructive activity, as part of your spiritual devotion to, and love for, the Earth? Perhaps some compromise? Hybrid vehicle? Carpooling? Bicycle?  Or, are you in a position where you simply “have to have a car” to survive?

I have read peoples descriptions of having to drive, some for hours, each way to attend a short meeting, ritual gathering or celebration, with the stated aim of connecting with the Gods, the Earth, the Ancestors or other Spirits. Can any personal benefit derived from attending such a gathering in this way outweigh the destruction caused in exacerbating an already dire situation by engaging in this activity? How do you think the Gods, the Earth, the Spirits and the Ancestors perceive this obvious affront to Nature?

How can one continue, in good conscience, to do harm to the planet on the one hand, and claim to love it at the same time on the other?

Is there a better way?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 12:15:05 pm by Dame Guenn Eona Nimue » Logged

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« Reply #1: September 09, 2010, 12:42:51 pm »

How can one continue, in good conscience, to do harm to the planet on the one hand, and claim to love it at the same time on the other?

I do not own a car, largely for the reasons you described above.  I am thinking of getting one for long trips and errands that require me to transport a lot of things.  I don't want to use it for things where I could just as easily take the bus or ride my bike.  I don't want to use it every day. I don't want to use it to get to work.  Honestly, a big part of the reason for that is rush hour traffic. I don't want to deal with the stress.  Let the bus driver handle it.  I'd rather read or take a nap.

Despite this, I acknowledge that some people really do need cars.  For example, I'd imagine it's a lot harder to do without one if you have kids.  Kids need to be transported to school, games, etc. If I had a sick child I'd want a car so I could drive them to the doctor's office.  I wouldn't want to depend on a friend or the bus for that.  That would be for my own peace of mind.

I feel the same way about not eating meat.  I'm (mostly) veg for environmental reasons as well.  I accept that some people don't do well on that type of diet and I don't believe I have the right to tell others what to put into their own body.  

I look at it this way:  in some religions, there are people who take vows of celibacy.  Those people don't expect everyone to live that way. They know it's not possible.  Their vow is a personal commitment that they make, because that's what they believe their God wants.  Same thing with my own lifestyle choices.

The way I see it, Dame Guenn Eona Nimue, if you don't want to drive then don't do it.   If you live in an urban area with a good bus system then it's workable.  I just think it's important to accept that most people do need cars to get around.  It wouldn't hurt most of us to reduce the amount we drive.  In addition to environmental factors, the exercise from walking or biking would be better for our health.  Still, asking people how they could drive "in good conscience" reflects a failure to take a lot of factors into account.  

Don't judge people until you've walked several miles in their shoes because they missed the last bus and the next one doesn't come until morning.

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« Reply #2: September 09, 2010, 12:55:40 pm »

Can any personal benefit derived from attending such a gathering in this way outweigh the destruction caused in exacerbating an already dire situation by engaging in this activity? How do you think the Gods, the Earth, the Spirits and the Ancestors perceive this obvious affront to Nature?

Well, my Gods and my religion aren't as focused on environmentalism as some, so...  I'm thinking they'd rather have the worship, and I'm not sure whether they consider it an affront or not.  I have no idea what the Earth, Spirits, or Ancestors or Nature think; I don't worship them.

Which is not to say that taking care of the planet I live on isn't important to me.  It's just not a religious thing, which may influence my response.

Quote
How can one continue, in good conscience, to do harm to the planet on the one hand, and claim to love it at the same time on the other?

We live here.  That's going to have an effect.  Period.

There are things that we can do, choices we can make, that will reduce our personal impact, and a lot of people I know do make an effort to do what they can.  However, we also live in the society we live in.  That imposes some limitations.  There are only certain types of power we can use (and we're often limited to whatever is available in our area, and moving away to a place with cleaner power may not be practical); not everyone can grow enough food to be self-sustaining on their own land; our vehicles (necessary in some areas) only use certain kinds of fuel.  We have to do what we can with what we've got while we look for solutions to the problems.  Some of us will be able to do more than others.  That doesn't mean that those of us able to do less are horrible Earth-damaging hypocrits.  It just means we have less ability to reduce our impact than some people do.

Sometimes, too, there are trade-offs.  I mean, look, I could get a job that I could bike to.  But it would pay a whole lot less than the job I drive 40 minutes to, and I wouldn't be able to afford the hybrid car (and I'd still need it for getting around town, because our public transport is OK but won't get me everywhere I need to go--and that's not to mention the odd out-of-town errand), or the fancy local/organic food, or the eco-friendly household products, or any number of other things that allow me to reduce my impact.

I try to be honest with myself in assessing what I realistically can do, and then I do it.  Every bit counts.  I refuse to beat myself up over not being able to do more; that's not a very productive way to proceed.
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« Reply #3: September 09, 2010, 01:30:22 pm »

How can one continue, in good conscience, to do harm to the planet on the one hand, and claim to love it at the same time on the other?

As others have said, this is a conflation of assumptions about the priorities of other people (and various paths)

My own basic premise is that things are interconnected, and that I have a responsibility to be aware of that (and how my decisions influence that). But at the same time, I am not responsible for the weight of the world. I'm responsible for my own choices, how I talk about those choices, and to some degree, how those choices directly influence others.

I own a car. I've considered going car-free, but I'm asthmatic (controlled by lifestyle choice and as-needed meds, because I've had horrible side effects on all the longer-term meds we've tried.) I also have been fighting other major medical foo this winter that has left my stamina and level of energy very depleted - and also very uneven.

Both of these mean that there are days that I can handle public transit just fine - and days that I can't (either in terms of having to walk back from the appropriate bus stop, or in terms of it taking me 3-5 times longer to get to and from places than it would driving and take a lot more energy). Sometimes that's due to allergens - walking past smoking can wipe me out if other allergens are high. Sometimes it's due to a sudden change in the weather (and I live in Minnesota, where a 20 degree change during the day, or a sudden shift in humidity, are both more common than not.) And sometimes it's something else - a particularly energetic day of whatever I'm doing takes energy from the process of getting to and from the activity.

And of course, this is Minnesota, which means that giving up the car would mean a couple of weeks in the winter of dealing with sub-zero (both C and F scales) weather, as well as a couple of weeks of extremely hot weather - both significant challenges for many people with chronic health issues like mine. (There are, of course, more weeks where the weather's not the most pleasant to be out in, but not quite so likely to do major health damage via hypothermia or hyperthermia if one misjudges.)

Even more problematic are days that I could handle getting somewhere by walking or public transit, but run the risk of hitting an allergen or unexpected drop in energy, and not being able to get home safely by myself. If I had a spouse/roommate/someone I could trust to be able to come pick me up when that happened, I'd be more willing to experiment, but I don't. (and again, Minnesota: there are about 3-4 months where biking is possible for the fanatical, but lots of people spend a few months driving in the winter rather than run the risks of biking on snowy roads or dealing with skidding on sand or plow debris.)

That said, I do look at my choices. I drive a 10.5 year old car right now, and when I replace it, I will look for the most efficient and effective choice for my driving needs. I currently drive between 250 and 500 miles at most in a given month, and have seriously cut down on my drives to further locations. I carpool when I can, or combine trips and errands so that I'm reducing the distance I drive. When I was married, we were a one car household, and I'm still not sure about that choice: we did a lot more driving to combine our commutes than I think we saved in other ways (only having one car, etc.)

And I also look at choices in other parts of my life: I live in a tiny little 400 square foot house, which has some challenges (particularly around hosting people for discussions and ritual), but that has a lot of other benefits - not the least that it doesn't use a lot of energy to heat or cool. (Again, my long-term plans, I'd love to own a house where I could make more changes and ideally move to other energy sources - geothermal systems are increasingly common in my area.) I try to eat locally when and where I can. I make deliberate choices in my clothing to reduce the amount of energy and chemical use in laundry.

In terms of travelling for Pagan events: I live in the middle of Minneapolis, and most events I'm likely to want to go to are within 5-10 miles of me. The one further exception I've been to in the last couple of years, I carpooled with (with someone who drives a hybrid, even.) And I try to plan coven events, when they're in progress (we're currently mostly on hiatus due to my figuring out what my next job is) to maximise time together while not requiring lots of travel - in my dream world, that'd be one or two rituals a month (Esbats and Sabbats) plus one or two discussion session with each student and/or the group: depending on schedule, some of these can easily be combined with the rituals.

And yet, I know people who think about all these things to the same level of depth and intensity, but who make different choices. Often, that's simply because their life is different: their health is more reliable, so they can much more easily plan to bike or use public transit. Or they live very near work and other things they need, but do so to offset a longer drive for a strong interest or community commitment. Or they work mostly at home, but at a job that does require periodic travel to conferences and other professional events.

None of these is a 'wrong' choice. None of them is a simple choice. And only *my* stuff is really my choice, though I do talk about it with students and group members, and encourage them to think about if there are any changes they might like to make. (Or, since I've been tending to select for people who think about why they make choices *anyway*, we share ideas on what's working for us, and whether it might be a good fit for someone else.)
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« Reply #4: September 09, 2010, 02:09:24 pm »

Our beloved Earth should not be facing many of the problems she currently faces, such as over population, mountainous landfills, global warming (and the consequent rise in sea level), pollution and ever diminishing natural resources.

A good example is automobiles. No one could be unaware how driving a car harms the Earth in so many ways, including, but by no means limited to, air pollution and the unfolding ecological disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. Do you feel at all responsible as you turn the key to start your car?  Is that “just the way it is”? Or, have you found an alternative way of living that largely removes you from this harmful and destructive activity, as part of your spiritual devotion to, and love for, the Earth? Perhaps some compromise? Hybrid vehicle? Carpooling? Bicycle?  Or, are you in a position where you simply “have to have a car” to survive?

I have read peoples descriptions of having to drive, some for hours, each way to attend a short meeting, ritual gathering or celebration, with the stated aim of connecting with the Gods, the Earth, the Ancestors or other Spirits. Can any personal benefit derived from attending such a gathering in this way outweigh the destruction caused in exacerbating an already dire situation by engaging in this activity? How do you think the Gods, the Earth, the Spirits and the Ancestors perceive this obvious affront to Nature?

How can one continue, in good conscience, to do harm to the planet on the one hand, and claim to love it at the same time on the other?

Is there a better way?


I have a car. I can't use the public transport here for quite a few reasons including the fact that I am disabled, can't walk very far and it is a good walk to the bus or train, and also that the buses are really unreliable around here. My choice was to have a Toyota Prius, which as a hybrid car is a lot better for the envoironment. Cows are a danger to the envoironment, due to the high levels of Methane that they produce, but they provide both milk and meat-should we get rid of them? I recycle as much as I can, grow a good portion of my own food, keep bees, try to eat seasonal produce, and reuse as many leftovers as I can. As long as I continue to do the best that I can, my Deities are satisfied with my efforts. I do not for a moment believe that attending a gathering to celebrate the Deities is an affront to them or the Earth. If you are concerned about the envoironmental impact, why not suggest a car sharing scheme? I usually offer to take people in my car as we are going to the same place.
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« Reply #5: September 09, 2010, 04:32:28 pm »

How can one continue, in good conscience, to do harm to the planet on the one hand, and claim to love it at the same time on the other?

Is there a better way?


I know that I could do a better job at protecting the planet, and I am certainly willing to listen to suggestions on how to improve.  I will tell you, though, that it is hard to have a neutral or positive response to this post because of the tone.  I feel like a person I don't know just swooped in to give me an emotional lecture.  The lecture also assumes that not only are we Pagan, but particular type of Pagan. 

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« Reply #6: September 09, 2010, 04:43:32 pm »

Our beloved Earth should not be facing many of the problems she currently faces, such as over population, mountainous landfills, global warming (and the consequent rise in sea level), pollution and ever diminishing natural resources.

First: I hate to be a spoil sport, but I have to toss some reality in here. While we are changing the climate, perhaps to the point where it will not support us humans without high tech aid, we really aren't changing the Earth in any harmful to the planet ways. For example, global warming might heat the Earth of enough that it cannot support the current human population, but the Earth itself has been far warmer that we are likely to make it in the last 500 million or so years. We might wipe ourselves out with nuclear weapons, but the Earth will still be here and would recover. Etc. We don't currently have the technology to really harm the Earth, just the Earth's ability to support huge numbers of humans.

Second: my religion doesn't worship the Earth as the main deity, so I'm not being hypocritical practicing my religion in ways that aren't 100% environmentally friendly. 

Third: In spite of the above, I do what little I can.
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« Reply #7: September 09, 2010, 04:52:32 pm »



Third: In spite of the above, I do what little I can.

And this is the big thing - corporations worldwide do massively more to pollute the planet than individuals do  - so no matter what we do it will be a drop in the bucket - a very big bucket.

And, yeah, my deity has never said a thing about the planet.....
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« Reply #8: September 09, 2010, 05:00:02 pm »


O.K.
Honest?

I already deleted two drafts for an answer.
Both sounded pretty harsh, because your post touches a pet peeve of mine.

I see no reason to justify myself because I live by the normal standards of the country I live in.
And in this I'm not in the luxuary compartment either.

I'm sick and tired of priggish calls to save the planet. (In general, not attacking you or wanting to offend you. I just want to explain my answer to your post.)

The planet does not need saving from us. Period.
What we need to save is our own butts - that should be the motivation - most folks haven't understood that yet.
If they had, it would work out in no time.

Earth just has a bad case of humans, but she will and she can manage this.
Life does not depend on mankind, neither will the universe stop existing, if we manage to exstinct ourselves.

I don't want to be extinct and I could live a bit more eco-friendly too, I guess.
But otoh I'm not the worst one around either. I do what is possible.

BTW I am on a Earth/Otherworld centered path.

Don't get me wrong.
I am all for taking action against pollution and the erasing of species.
But I really think, we would do way better, if we would be honest about the fact, that we (should) do it for ourselves.
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« Reply #9: September 09, 2010, 05:12:25 pm »

Earth just has a bad case of humans, but she will and she can manage this.

(bolding mine)

Mind if I borrow that? Cheesy
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« Reply #10: September 09, 2010, 05:33:48 pm »

<snippage>
Earth just has a bad case of humans, but she will and she can manage this.
<more snippage>

What Mel said. That's a GREAT turn of phrase, and if it's ok, I'll borrow it too.
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« Reply #11: September 09, 2010, 05:41:23 pm »



 Cheesy
Borrow ahead.  Grin
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« Reply #12: September 09, 2010, 06:57:21 pm »



A good example is automobiles. No one could be unaware how driving a car harms the Earth in so many ways, including, but by no means limited to, air pollution and the unfolding ecological disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. Do you feel at all responsible as you turn the key to start your car?  Is that “just the way it is”? Or, have you found an alternative way of living that largely removes you from this harmful and destructive activity, as part of your spiritual devotion to, and love for, the Earth? Perhaps some compromise? Hybrid vehicle? Carpooling? Bicycle?  Or, are you in a position where you simply “have to have a car” to survive?


I agree with the point that it's not the earth's survival we need to worry about, as she's been through worse and will go through still worse again after we're all gone.  Smiley
I live in a 900 sq ft apt with my husband and five kids, and everything we own is reclaimed (a nicer word than "used but still usable!"  Wink ) -- we try to eat local and make choices that involve sustainability. We have no plans to purchase a large home, even when/if we decide to buy one. I breastfeed, which in addition to the reasons I do it, reduces waste and manufacturing. Cloth diapering is also something I've figured out a way to do, despite barriers. I do have five kids, which is a choice that gets many to scream that overpopulation is killing the earth and/or wiping out mankind... but my family currently consumes less than a family of half the size, and my children are growing up to be environmentally conscious adults who are used to making choices with an eye to the effect on the larger world - people, animals, plants, rocks, etc. We do have a van, we do drive it places. Hubby was just now able to get a motorcycle for commuting to work three seasons a year. When my kiddos are older, we'll bike more to get where we're going. ... so basically, I make a lot of choices based on what is less damaging to the earth, as well as what is financially possible for us, and what works with our current lifestyle. What works today may not work tomorrow, but for the most part we are continuously increasing our ability to reduce our impact on the environment, and I see that a continuing trend. I recently got involved with a local permaculture group and I'm looking forward to learning from them and working together with them to build a community that values sustainability, simplicity, self-sufficiency and cooperation in an achievable way.

And as a side note, I'm originally from a rural area, and having a vehicle, even a truck, is a necessity for many people in areas of this country.  People who act as though it is optional in all cases are coming from an insular worldview that includes being less than twenty miles from town and/or having access to public transportation. It's just a pet peeve of mine. From your wording I don't that's what you meant, but I have heard that attitude from people before, and it shows a disconnect. I don't understand how someone can connect with the earth and creatures on it on a really deep level, but not with the human race.
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« Reply #13: September 10, 2010, 04:48:38 pm »



The planet does not need saving from us. Period.
What we need to save is our own butts - that should be the motivation - most folks haven't understood that yet.
If they had, it would work out in no time.

I've often thought instead of a save the planet campaign we need a save the humans campaign.



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« Reply #14: September 10, 2010, 07:47:14 pm »

I've often thought instead of a save the planet campaign we need a save the humans campaign.



"This bowl was brought to you by the Campaign to Save the Humans."

Anyone?
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