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Author Topic: Is the Right Wing Anti-Science?  (Read 31328 times)
veggiewolf
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« Reply #15: September 15, 2010, 04:21:37 pm »

...
What drives me over the cliff is that these elements have been mainstreamed. It's acceptable to be racist (or anti-science, anti-government or anti-educated, or whatever we want to talk about.). Hell, those elements aren't marginalized, they're embraced, loved and reveled in...

This!

Examples of this are everywhere, but here's one from my own life:  Our school district started, with the inauguration of President Obama, notifying parents ahead of time when the president is going to give a speech to school children so they can "...notify your child's teacher if you don't want him/her to hear the President's message."  The district never did this with any other president, or governor, or local official regardless of their political leanings.  That says something, IMO. 

[rant]
I don't agree with the way the administration is handling multiple items at the moment (DADT, SSM, health care), but I find it appalling that the same people who were asking liberals to "...respect the office of the President" when a conservative was in the oval office see nothing hypocritical encouraging people not to respect our current president...who was fairly elected according to US laws

[/rant]
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« Reply #16: September 15, 2010, 04:50:43 pm »


When they couldn't find any real examples of racism in the Tea Party movement, they made it up

Okay, I'm not going to bother wading through the rest of this post, but I can tell you that the racism in the Tea Party is most certainly NOT made up.  I would not say that every single person that calls him/herself a Tea Partier is racist but it is not something made up by the Democrats and it is not a tiny fringe fraction of people but a good healthy chunk of Tea Party activists.  My area is a hot spot for Tea Party activity, and I can tell you that the rallies at the Arch and elsewhere had a good healthy dose of beyond the pale racist garbage.  And for that matter sexist and homophobic garbage.  This is not a matter of media portrayal.  I live here.  And while we are talking about fake things happen at rallies, I personally know of at least 1 instance where Tea Party members pretended to be part of a crowd engaged in a peaceful protest for gay marriage rights and heckled the police and went outside the designated protest area in an attempt to get the crowd dispersed.  I had friends there that identified the people in question and videotaped them. 

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skyth
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« Reply #17: September 15, 2010, 11:01:14 pm »

They intentionally walked through that crowd, hoping to provoke a response they could use; there is a tunnel that is usually used, for security reasons. Congressmen rarely parade around on the Mall in the middle of sessions through protests.  Despite their deliberately provocative behavior

I love how not being bullied into hiding is considered provocative behavior.  If they had used the tunnel, they probably would have been called cowards for not facing the protesters...
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« Reply #18: September 15, 2010, 11:07:18 pm »

Scientists--and sometimes even science itself--have been getting hammered by right-wing commentators recently. Now comes the counterattack. A strongly-worded editorial in the prestigious journal Nature starts by quoting Rush Limbaugh: "The four corners of deceit: government, academia, science and media. Those institutions are now corrupt and exist by virtue of deceit. That's how they promulgate themselves; it is how they prosper."



I'll throw my view into this. A few times, I think it's not the issue that is being argued: "What's the problem?" Occasionally, I think it's who the issue is being discussed by that's the real issue: "Who thinks this is a problem?" I think this is part of the reason why few issues, like global warming, changed from an environmental issue to a partisan one. People can become suspicious. "Oh, what are they complaining about now?". I have discussions like this with family members. They complain about "Leftist propaganda". I ask "Specifically, why are you against this issue?" They have no real answer. I see this all the time on the news. One political party is saying how awful the other political party is because of some issue, and all I'm thinking is "Would you say that if the tables were turned?".

I was watching a day time show and the guest wrote a book about supposed diaries or something in the Obama household. The guest was criticizing Michelle Obama for trying to get Americans, especially school children, to eat better and exercise more. (seriously) The guest was basically saying, "Who is she to say that? We didn't elect her, why is this her business? "First lady" isn't an official title and has no power!". Come on!. It's traditional that the first lady has a "pet issue". Did this guest complain about Nancy Reagan and her crusade against drugs? Was she arguing that she had no right to tell kids to "just say no"? I don't think so. I think there are some people who will argue against perceived enemies no matter what. And that's a shame.

There are good people on both sides. This divisiveness is hurting us. Not all Democrats are pot smoking, tree hugging, protesters. I honestly don't see how any of that's bad, but whatever... Not all Republicans are bible thumping, gun toting, closet racists. I'm pretty sure there are some that are nice people. I, personally, haven't met one, but anything's possible right? ( Cheesy jk) I am against most right wing ideals, but am able to step back and say, "Am I mad because he's a Republican, or is it because I truly disagree?". I do this with political commercials and avoid a lot of B.S. on both sides. I actually saw an ad where a non racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. joke was used against someone! I think one Democrat candidate said something like "I'm here fellow extremists!" (Clearly joking, sort of sarcastic) And then the serious voiced political announcer of the other Democratic candidate followed with something like, "Do we really need an extremist...?" Huh??

I hate the news but when I watch it tends to be foreign news. I think many Americans would learn a lot about themselves if they watched an outlet that has little at stake.

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skyth
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« Reply #19: September 15, 2010, 11:14:48 pm »


An interesting quote I found from the Koran-burning thread about a guy from New Jersey that burned pages of the Koran to protest the 'Ground Zero Mosque'...

Quote
He said, 'This is America,' and he wanted to stand up for it, in a Tea Party kind of way,"

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/14/2010-09-14_koran_burner_derek_fenton_fired_from_his_job_at_nj_transit.html#ixzz0zet5KzuY

There are definitely bigots in the Tea Party and it seems to be behavior that is considered by members to be part of being in it.
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RoseRed
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« Reply #20: September 15, 2010, 11:42:48 pm »

I think this is part of the reason why few issues, like global warming, changed from an environmental issue to a partisan one.

I also see the financial and political reason behind it. Industry having a negative effect on the planet, means more regulation. More regulation is "unrepublican". I think there's a bit of self interest there. I do think the earth's climate changes and shifts, but to say that we aren't doing anything wrong, I think is the mistake. I believe we are affecting the planet and it's hard to say whether or not the percentage of problems we add on are "negligible" enough to not make a disastrous impact. I'm not willing to gamble on that. Especially since ignoring it makes financial sense for it's critics.

As for the Tea Party, I find it hard to believe that the people who are members have no interest in social issues. I'm generalizing but, the people who are traditionally fiscally conservative have been socially conservative as well. If they get fiscal conservatives in office, how will they vote on the social issues that come up? There has to be a reason the same "bad elements" pop up in conservative groups. It might be regional. Southern or bible belt states are not exactly the most diverse. Or maybe it's the law of averages. More whites increases the chances of racists. Maybe the racists see there's not a lot of "color" on the right, so maybe they think it's a place for them? I'm not sure. (But I have my suspicions.... Wink)

And a bit more on republicans and science. Republicans have been about "tradition" (good or bad, but that's my opinion). Science is about breaking what was thought of as truth and making a new, more complete view of the world. It's about the future. Maybe republicans feel intimidated or threatened. Like an old lady trying to figure out how to work the self check out at a shop, maybe they try to cling to how things used to be. Republicans, often, are quite religious. Maybe it's the old war of religion vs. science. I actually think it's a bit of both. I also think if the scientific issue has financial implications, that will help dictate whether they believe it or not.   Wink
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« Reply #21: September 16, 2010, 10:38:36 am »

As for the Tea Party, I find it hard to believe that the people who are members have no interest in social issues. I'm generalizing but, the people who are traditionally fiscally conservative have been socially conservative as well. If they get fiscal conservatives in office, how will they vote on the social issues that come up?

There was a interesting interview on NPR this morning about that:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2010/09/16/129904555/tea-party-tug-of-war?ft=1&f=
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Pyperlie
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« Reply #22: September 16, 2010, 12:10:50 pm »


I was watching a day time show and the guest wrote a book about supposed diaries or something in the Obama household. The guest was criticizing Michelle Obama for trying to get Americans, especially school children, to eat better and exercise more. (seriously) The guest was basically saying, "Who is she to say that? We didn't elect her, why is this her business? "First lady" isn't an official title and has no power!". Come on!. It's traditional that the first lady has a "pet issue". Did this guest complain about Nancy Reagan and her crusade against drugs? Was she arguing that she had no right to tell kids to "just say no"? I don't think so. I think there are some people who will argue against perceived enemies no matter what. And that's a shame.

In fairness on Michelle's childhood obesity campaign:  Her kids are thin, like most wealthy kids.  I can easily see how people would be offended that this rich lady with skinny kids is obsessed with poor people's fat ass kids.  I know I was, and for that reason, too.

Plus, it just seems like a stupid pet cause.  She was a hospital admin, IIRC,; you'd think she'd be more concerned about our broken healthcare system (yes, obesity is a part of it, but I don't think it's the biggest piece of the puzzle by a long shot).  Or childhood poverty, what with the Recession and all.  Maybe our broken education system, the environmental degradation, or any of the thousand-plus other problems that are more important to our national survival.
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« Reply #23: September 16, 2010, 01:17:36 pm »

In fairness on Michelle's childhood obesity campaign:  Her kids are thin, like most wealthy kids.  I can easily see how people would be offended that this rich lady with skinny kids is obsessed with poor people's fat ass kids.  I know I was, and for that reason, too.

Plus, it just seems like a stupid pet cause.  She was a hospital admin, IIRC,; you'd think she'd be more concerned about our broken healthcare system (yes, obesity is a part of it, but I don't think it's the biggest piece of the puzzle by a long shot).  Or childhood poverty, what with the Recession and all.  Maybe our broken education system, the environmental degradation, or any of the thousand-plus other problems that are more important to our national survival.

Well, let's remember what happened last time the first lady was more concerned about the broken healthcare system..  This seems a bit disingenous now
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« Reply #24: September 16, 2010, 03:03:34 pm »

In fairness on Michelle's childhood obesity campaign:  Her kids are thin, like most wealthy kids.  I can easily see how people would be offended that this rich lady with skinny kids is obsessed with poor people's fat ass kids.  I know I was, and for that reason, too.

Plus, it just seems like a stupid pet cause.  She was a hospital admin, IIRC,; you'd think she'd be more concerned about our broken healthcare system (yes, obesity is a part of it, but I don't think it's the biggest piece of the puzzle by a long shot).  Or childhood poverty, what with the Recession and all.  Maybe our broken education system, the environmental degradation, or any of the thousand-plus other problems that are more important to our national survival.

First off, Michele isn't just concerned about "fat" kids.  She is concerned about unhealthy kids.  She is advocating good nutrition and exercise, and that addresses a lot more health issues than just being fat.  And she started becoming interested in this issue because her own pediatrician told her that she needed to do a better job of watching how her kids eat and their activity levels.  It isn't just about kids in poverty being fat.  It is about kids at every economic level that aren't getting enough healthy food or enough exercise.  The number one vegetable consumed by most toddler is french fries!  That's not good, regardless of whether it makes them fat or not. 

I would say that addressing the obesity epidemic is a critical piece of addressing our broken healthcare system in two ways.  One, it is addressing one of the reasons that younger and younger people have chronic conditions like heart disease and diabetes.  Two, it sets a good example by working on preventative care.  People managing their health in advance of being forced into an emergency room visit would do wonders for our healthcare budgets.  Also many parts of her approach touch on both environment degradation and childhood poverty as well.  I think that raising an organic garden on the White House lawn is an important (symbolic) part of that puzzle.  She is working to find ways for low income people find ways around the food deserts in inner cities and find access to healthy, affordable produce. 

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« Reply #25: September 16, 2010, 03:07:50 pm »

In fairness on Michelle's childhood obesity campaign:  Her kids are thin, like most wealthy kids.  I can easily see how people would be offended that this rich lady with skinny kids is obsessed with poor people's fat ass kids.  I know I was, and for that reason, too.

Plus, it just seems like a stupid pet cause.  She was a hospital admin, IIRC,; you'd think she'd be more concerned about our broken healthcare system (yes, obesity is a part of it, but I don't think it's the biggest piece of the puzzle by a long shot).  Or childhood poverty, what with the Recession and all.  Maybe our broken education system, the environmental degradation, or any of the thousand-plus other problems that are more important to our national survival.

Because she's rich and her kids are thin? That's why she shouldn't be concerned with school lunches? If she were poor with chubby kids you'd think she was more "qualified"? Maybe because she worked in a hospital she saw a few people with preventable diseases. Maybe she doesn't want the obesity rate to climb higher and higher, and shorten the lives of the next generation. This is what I talked about, what she's saying is right, but because of who she is, for some, it becomes wrong. What about celebrities or any person who does charitable acts? Should they cut it out, after all, what does Bono or a soccer mom know about poverty--they didn't grow up in a poor African village?

If I thought that everyone who gave me advice thought they were my superior, maybe I could see your point. But if I thought that way, I could easily get offended if the rich lady ignored my chubby kids. "No one's trying to get the soda machines out of the elementary schools and now half of the kids have diabetes! See, they don't care about us. Rich bitch with her fifties hair cut!"  Cheesy

And there is free will. If someone doesn't agree with what she says, they can continue to fry their chicken everyday instead of baking them. But clogging ones arteries to spite someone who doesn't know them seems silly to me.

And I think many people in the public eye are concerned about things like poverty, but one person can't fight or stand behind so many issues. That's why miss America picks one.  Cheesy She can't spread awareness about bullying and poverty and childhood obesity and sickle cell anemia and diabetes and low self esteem and spousal abuse and drug trafficking and everything else all at the same time, and expect good results.

And this is just my opinion, of course, but I don't think obesity in the U.S. is a stupid cause. Maybe if the issue was Obesity in Ethiopia. We are dying of early deaths and for the first time in our history, our kids are projected to live shorter lives than their parents. If it doesn't get better, it will only get worse. I would like the next generation to have an easier life. And how can they do that if their bodies are breaking down at an early age?

I don't think healthcare is a more worthy cause than obesity and wellness. I think they are related. It's hard to say which cause is the best cause to back, because so much is about opinion. I'm sure there are some people who think she should be focused on fighting sexism. She was in a male dominated field. Maybe racism, she's black. Maybe heart disease or cancer, I'm sure she has a friend or family member affected. Maybe she should be telling us to spay and neuter our pets! She has a pet. I don't think she needs to be personally affected by an issue to try and spread awareness. I'm sure if her kids were overweight, there would be critics saying "she only cares because her kids are fat."  Grin
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« Reply #26: September 16, 2010, 03:28:59 pm »

First off, Michele isn't just concerned about "fat" kids.  She is concerned about unhealthy kids.  She is advocating good nutrition and exercise, and that addresses a lot more health issues than just being fat.  And she started becoming interested in this issue because her own pediatrician told her that she needed to do a better job of watching how her kids eat and their activity levels. 

I wasn't aware that her pediatrician told her this. It reminds me of my own childhood. I was a twig when I was a kid. I could eat whatever I wanted and not gain a pound. I ate greasy, fatty, sugary garbage but was a thin waif. I was so thin, my pediatrician recommended high calorie meal replacement shakes for me to drink in between meals. Was I healthy? No. I don't consider "healthy" to equal "not diseased". I consider healthy to mean vital and at optimum condition. I had very dry skin and brittle hair and nails, I was always sick, sleepy and grumpy. That was my nick name--grouch. A good diet changed all that. Naturally thin doesn't necessarily mean healthy. Other factors have to be looked at.

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« Reply #27: September 19, 2010, 01:43:16 pm »

Well, let's remember what happened last time the first lady was more concerned about the broken healthcare system..  This seems a bit disingenous now

I fail to see what's disingenuous about it.  As someone who's career was in health care before she became First Lady, she has a little more gravitas, for lack of a better word, than Hillary, whose actual work was in law, did.  The people who railroaded Hillary are the right-wing radio hosts who have a set-in audience now.  Nobody outside that audience seems to give a shit what Rush thinks about anything, so I think it would be a little harder to ruin her over it.

And on top of that, from what I've seen on the news, Michelle's incredibly popular for a First Lady.  So, again, she could do things with more success than Hillary could, I think.

Plus, I didn't just say health care; it was an example among several of things I feel are more pressing issues.
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« Reply #28: September 19, 2010, 02:03:02 pm »


First off, Michele isn't just concerned about "fat" kids.  She is concerned about unhealthy kids.  She is advocating good nutrition and exercise, and that addresses a lot more health issues than just being fat.  And she started becoming interested in this issue because her own pediatrician told her that she needed to do a better job of watching how her kids eat and their activity levels.  It isn't just about kids in poverty being fat.  It is about kids at every economic level that aren't getting enough healthy food or enough exercise.  The number one vegetable consumed by most toddler is french fries!  That's not good, regardless of whether it makes them fat or not. 

Really?  Her kids look pretty rail-thin to me; why did her pediatrician think there was a problem?

As to the number one vegetable consumed by toddlers being french fries, I think that's a poverty issue.  When both parents (or the single parent) are working multiple jobs that they've scheduled in such a way that one of them can always be home w/the kid because they can't afford daycare, it's not surprising that they feed the kid cheap convenience foods.

Up until my current job, everywhere I've worked there were people doing this; one parent working 1st shift and one working 3rd because daycare would be too much money.  And by the time they got home, they didn't have the energy (or knowledge, really) to cook anything more elaborate than Hamburger Helper (or Chicken Helper, if they're trying to be health-conscious, or if chicken was on sale).  They had to be w/the kid while not working, so they didn't have the time to take the healthy cooking class that they couldn't afford, anyway.

Of course, if this holds true for solidly middle-class kids, I can't really comment on the possible reasons; my experience is pretty much confined to my working-class comrades.

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« Reply #29: September 19, 2010, 02:53:15 pm »

Really?  Her kids look pretty rail-thin to me; why did her pediatrician think there was a problem?

I don't know the specifics of what medical issues they were having.  I just know that she has repeatedly mentioned that her family was super busy and that they were eating a lot of takeout food and watching a lot of tv, etc. when her ped confronted her and said the family needed to change their lifestyle.  There are lots of things that might signal malnutrition without the kids being too fat.

Quote
As to the number one vegetable consumed by toddlers being french fries, I think that's a poverty issue. 


That's part of the picture, but it isn't all of it.  Some parents are so overscheduled that they are shoving food to the babies in the back seat while they run to soccer, religious school, and the dozens of other things that parents do.  But she is also trying to address the poverty aspect of issues as well.  Her encouragement was helpful in getting the WIC program re-tooled for example.  The program now offers whole-grain bread and fresh fruits and veggies. 

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